The church died with Joseph Smith. The church fractured into splinter groups that changed how the church was organized and even some of the beliefs.

The splinter group the Quorum of the Twelve founded that resides in Utah can’t even use the original name of the church because someone else owns it. They don’t own the original temple or Joseph Smith’s homestead and burial place. Why? The Smith family never recognized Brigham Young as a legitimate prophet.

So the church went tits up at Carthage. What was created afterwards was something else various people like Sidney Rigdon, James Strang and Brigham Young cooked up.

Agree, but they kept even expanded what features they thought were most important:

Multiple sex partners (only for men, of course)

White Supremacy (didn’t call it that back then)

Autocratic leadership, financing lack of transparency & responsibility

Rubicon, which of JS's dozen or so Mormonisms was the original one?

Fantasies grow with imagination changes whereas Facts & Truth grow - develop by research; those two aren't compatible.


me: If there was an 'original' Mormonism, it didn't last very long but instead developed as the early followers followed & somewhat shaped Mormonism. It's still changing today, almost noticeable every month...

eta: I think that the ‘best idea’ that Joey had (copied) was having 12 apostles; that resonated with lots of folks back in Joey’s day and also today.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2022 06:58PM by GNPE.

The one he tried to sell in Canada.

Yeah.

There was never "a" Mormon church. JS's creation was protean: it changed by the year if not by the month. The biggest Mormon faction, the Brighamite faith, assumed a more permanent form afterward. But during JS's life the only thing that remained constant was "we have a prophet," to which one might have added "whose vision of God keeps changing."

My father in law has a theory. He believes the church is always evolving and in early history it had to much more to get things righteousness.

It is what they have to prop up their shelves.

Continuing revelation would make more sense if at least the revelations were unidirectional. But what we see portrays God as a kid in a candy store, bouncing from bin to bin with no consistency at all.

Great point. God plays dice apparently.

Joseph Smith was president of the church and he ran the show. He was the head administrator. Yeah he added and changed things but one thing didn't change. He was in charge and the First Presidency were the head administrative organization.

The church broke along the lines of the last remaining member of the first presidency Sidney Rigdon who's church merged with Joseph's church in Kirkland. A new member by the name of James Strang who managed to get a lot of the church to follow him up into Wisconsin. The Quorum of the Twelve and it's president Brigham Young of course were the most successful splinter group.

Strang discovered new plates, declared himself king, started to practice polygamy and was murdered. Brigham grew the church in isolation and created a Mormon stronghold that still exists today. Sidney Rigdon went back to being an east coast minister. He kind of went back to normal society and blended back in.

The church everyone in here constantly complains about and dreams of imploding never was the original church. The original church was The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The church Brigham Young founded has to use a hyphen in it's official name because they don't own the original name.

What is in Utah will go on and morph into whatever it needs to morph into to survive. The church used to be a place everyone moved to and they tried to be self-sufficient and isolated. Well the world came in and polygamy became illegal and they had to make big time changes and had to got to cash tithing to pay off debts and then they invested the surplus and grew that over decades to be a wealthy organization with various business interests and yeah, they still claim to be a church. It's worth claiming that still because of tax free status, free labor and $7 billion in donations a year.

The church was never isolated before Brigham and even then it was on the road West.

Rigdon was out of the picture by the time Smith died. His influence, which was major, occurred in the earlier days of the church. I believe it was Rigdon who created the idea of a restored church which came out of his Campbellite background. One of the major evolved churches out of the Campbell movement today is The Church of Christ which also sees itself as a restored church.

I think Sid was instrumental in what happened to make Mormonism persist into the 21st Century.

Lots of organizers like him and Young gathered round the seer oil salesman.

Sidney Rigdon was in Kirkland with his group and Joseph Smith merged his group in and he probably took over since he had the gift of charisma. Yeah I'm sure some of Sidney's beliefs merged in. Sidney was last remaining member of the First Presidency and even had the support of Emma Smith to be the next president of the church. The Quorum of the Twelve were not pat of the church administration where the church was settled. They were over the mission field. In today's world they would be the Mission Department.

Basically what went to Utah were the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and they still run the church. The most senior apostle becomes prophet and president of the church. It's in the church's corporate charter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement#/media/File:LDS_Denominations.png

Source, you note, is Wiki. Very helpful.

What is the original name of the church that can't be used?

The church of Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Salt Lake City based church has to use The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The original church name never had a hyphen in it.

RIP

Yup. It's been dead a long time and we never were actually members of the original church. We were members of the Quorum of the Twelve splinter group who Emma Smith herself refused to follow.

Oh that I were an angel and cold have the desire of my heart that the rest of this corporate monstrosity would fizzle when Rusty naturally departs this earthly probationary state.

Rusty Nailson (love this appellation from skp) has done more than any man to further the decline of this work. May his days be many more upon this earth.

Agreed. May he hasten the great fizzling of the work of the Holy Corporation.

Regarding Rusty appellations, I wonder if Aunt Wendy has a cute little nickname something along the lines of Nine Inch Nelson? And when on road trips they have sing alongs to the tune of "Head Like Hole/Black as your soul/ I'd rather die that give you control" And think of the members in the area they are visiting when they get to the chorus, "bow down before the one you serve/ you're going to get what you deserve".

Damn that was funny. I imagined Rusty in some NIN video with Wendy doing something provocative to him...

I wonder who gets who closer to god in that relationship? They probably sing something along the lines of "I want to _____ you like a tithe payer/ I want to cash checks* from the inside"


*edited to try the lyrics count funds while I'm inside... or something along those lines.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2022 12:18PM by cheezus.

Russ has been a joke. His Mormon is a victory for Satan statement was beyond stupid. He's basically saying past prophets were under the influence of Satan and the church is lost.

Mormon Inc. isn't going to implode any time soon. They have always been viewed as oddballs. There really is nothing new here. People said the Utah church would fall into a power struggle after Brigham Young died. They have the money to survive a lot of gut punches. I don't see a mass exodus and implosion anytime soon.

I guess when there is a "Continuing Restoration" the original church can die a thousand times. To me that is wiggle room to allow for for a redirection at a whimsical rate market conditions will allow for the religion. They should add a hymn to the next hymnal about "Follow The Yellow Brick Covenant Path" for it was revealed to Dorothy to follow the path "because, because, because, because of the wonderful things He doeth". The little people were a symbol or a type and a shadow of the mental dwarfedness that the top 15 possess. "Because" is about as good a reason as they give any more on their reasoning with the implication being they know best. Where was I going with this?