"Using a recently developed nonhuman primate model of the disease, UC Davis researchers revealed that COVID reaches the brain by transport through the nose along the olfactory nerve, a nerve that starts in the brain and ends in the upper inside part of the nose.

“We not only demonstrated that the virus infects the brain, but also that it directly infects neurons and can be transported along nerve pathways to sites beyond the initial olfactory regions,” said senior author John Morrison, professor of neurology at UC Davis and director of the CNPRC [California National Primate Research Center].

[...]

Their findings leave no doubt that the virus was entering the brain and damaging brain cells along the way, said first author Danielle Beckman, a postdoctoral researcher at UC Davis. By comparing young and aged animals, it became clear that viral infection was exacerbated in the aged animals. Brain cells of infected aged monkeys appeared shrunken."


https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/news/covid-19-virus-infects-neurons-induces-inflammation-brains-rhesus-macaques

And that ties the disease to the immediate loss of taste and smell as well.

I'm going to have to read more about long COVID, etc. I said something about my ability to tolerate some textures. Food doesn't taste the same any longer. It has been a little over a year since I got really sick with it.

I can still clean up after my dogs without being able to smell anything?!? My nose runs unpredictably for no reason. I have to always make sure I have a kleenex with me. And the textures. I no longer like my favorite foods because of the textures and the taste of everything is off STILL.

I tend to believe I have something going on in my brain as I can't type like I used to. I still type, but I'm not as fast at my work. I am a lot more dizzy and fall more.

cl2: If you haven't done so, it may be a good idea to check in with your MD. There may be something they need to attend to that could help you. Or at least they may add your experience to the store of medical stats & knowledge that somebody somewhere is keeping about long COVID.

Too, the MD may want to look into your falls. That would seem to be quite a significant symptom. Of what, s/he would likely want to find out.

If it's part of "long COVID", that would likely be of great interest for the stats and info that's being collected for global enlightenment.

But mainly, you may want to see if something can be done for your own benefit. Falls are risky business as you may do yourself quite a significant injury in what would seem to be a minor fall.

That's interesting too that it seems to be affecting your work. You and I are both in the same business. My fingers seem to do most of it on their own. I don't know at this point how much my brain contributes. I wouldn't want it to be malfunctioning though, as I am responsible for editing as well so no major mistakes occur. I need every brain cell I can keep hold of, in other words.

Take care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2022 06:34PM by Nightingale.

I got Covid last month at the Roger Waters Concert in Portland OR. I'm vax'd and boosted, it was basically like the flu but I did loose my sense of smell and taste. First for a few days, then it came back, then went away again for a few days and now its back for that last few weeks. As someone that loves to cook (and eat) I was really bummed. So glad it returned!

And I found a great burger place near my house "Roake's" and they have a great burger. A good cheese burger is one of my favorite foods. I've had one just about every weekend for the last month, couldn't taste the first one, but the ones after that were great. I'll probably go again this Sunday before band practice.

So COVID may affect the brain similar to victims of stroke where a new neurological path may need to be created. Interesting.

BTW, I have had both COVID and a stroke within the past 18 months.

That's a double whammy! I hope that you are feeling better.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a double whammy! I hope that you are
> feeling better.


Thanks Summer!

I appreciate it.

Wow. I'm sorry, messygoop. I think I noticed a drop off in your posting but I never suspected. . .

I hope you are doing better now and that neither illness entailed long-term problems.

Question: did your stroke follow the bout of COVID? There seems to be a causal connection that works that way.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question: did your stroke follow the bout of
> COVID? There seems to be a causal connection that
> works that way.

I had covid in 2021 and the stroke was 2 months ago.

Has anyone suggested a connection?

Apologies for intruding in such an intimate matter. . .

No, I have a stressful job and deal with several bosses similar to Mormon leaders. I put out boundaries and deal with a lot of passive aggression from them. It's one reason that Mormonism continues to haunt me.

I thought alcohol was damaging my brain cells but now Covid?

It sounds like that's the source of the "brain fog" often attributed to Covid, Long Covid, MIS-C, and MIS-A.

I have no idea what to believe about the sars-cov-2 virus anymore. There has never been a pathogen more politically charged in every conversation I have about it.

That's the thing about viruses. They don't care a fig about your politics. They just want to invade and replicate.

You make them sound like Mormons

Thee pathogen is not politically charged. The politicians and their groupies are politically charged.

It is politically charged almost exclusively in the US. The anti-covid (“it’s not really a disease”), anti-mask and anti+vaccine attitude has bled over somewhat to Canada and there are small contingents of “antis” in other countries, but the virulent denialism is pretty much a US phenomenon.

In the first year of covid [2020] the US was in the middle of the pack on infections and deaths per hundred thousand. We did better than Italy and Spain, worse than pretty much all of Asia, about the same as Germany and the UK. Infections in the US in 2020 were concentrated in densely populated areas with major transportation hubs to Europe.

The second year, vaccines became available, and the “red covid” phenomenon started, where the number of deaths and hospitalizations correlated with low vaccination rates, and vaccination rates correlated with political party.

Red covid has carried over and is more pronounced in 2022. And the US is no longer in the middle of the pack on deaths and hospitalizations per hundred thousand. We’re right up at the top. Deaths are down to about 400 per day, which is considerably better than the 3 thousand a day at the peak, but still the equivalent of a really bad flu outbreak, except this seems to be an ongoing death rate, not just a two month flu peak in midwinter.

Yet we still have people in the US arguing that covid is not a real disease, and tens of millions of health care workers and medical researchers around the world are either lying or incompetent.

Now that’s a conspiracy theory. Anybody providing disconfirming evidence about the “conspiracy” is simply included as part of the conspiracy.


D’oh!

ETA: I hate making claims about things without having the data to back it up, but I could not find the NYT article about red covid that I had recently read. I was using the NYT search function. I used google just now and had success. Paywalled unless you are within your free article allotment. Long article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/opinion/health/covid-pandemic-data.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2022 12:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.

see also ~ 'freedom' ~

So ziller, are you consistent?

Did you ever get the measles vaccine? Polio? Tetanus? Influenza?

Or is there something about the COVID vaccines that make them a unique threat to your freedom?

#logic #consistency #notexpectingmuch #sad

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> I have no idea what to believe about the sars-cov-2 virus anymore. There has never been a pathogen more politically charged in every conversation I have about it.

Go with trusted sources such as the CDC, Johns Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, etc. Trusted sources will follow the science. They don't always get things 100% correct, but they are correct about most things.

As the pandemic started to recede, I wasn't always perfectly comfortable with the CDC recommendations, but I did trust them to make the best possible decisions based on the data. Science is our best hope for mitigating and/or conquering disease.

We are so lucky that we got an effective vaccine in under one year. I remember one drug company official saying, "This is our moon shot." It was an "all hands on deck" situation. Scientists and medical professionals worked very hard to keep us safe. Many people are alive today because of Covid vaccines.

Things like vaccines and masks that became political, never needed to be political.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no idea what to believe about the
> sars-cov-2 virus anymore. There has never been a
> pathogen more politically charged in every
> conversation I have about it.

It's a good plan to consult multiple sources and to check each source - see how close to impartial you reasonably think they may be. I listen to the news from various TV and print sources but not the people just giving personal opinions or especially not those opinions with political overtones - I want to hear from named science and medicine experts with their creds trailing behind them. If you hear conflicting opinions (which happens even with experts, of course) then you have to dig deeper, check out more informed sources and once you have heard from several learned and reasonable sources decide what information you're going to rely on. But again, not based on political views but on the science/medicine side.

It may be instructive, and interesting, to learn a bit about the history of epidemics/pandemics and the lessons learned from them. The Plague, of course, comes to mind.

And check out the info about mass inoculation/immunization against former dread diseases like polio, leprosy, smallpox, tetanus, Hep A & B, mumps, chickenpox, to name some, which has been a rousing success throughout many places in the world. Smallpox is considered to be eradicated. That, of course, is the goal for many more afflictions.

The key is a large enough segment of the population being immunized against infectious diseases.

It's such a basic concept and easy to understand. Some politicians spout off, accomplishing nothing except demonstrating how ill-informed they are.

If a person wishes to discuss political ideas, find a politician or anyone interested in politics. For me, though, if one wishes to learn about issues related to medicine, or science, I'd find a reliable specialist in those fields. And a variety of sources, not just one favourite one that may have biases or just not enough info.

My grandma was a registered nurse during the 1918 flu epidemic. I wish she were still around and could tell me more about that period.

She and my grandpa met because of the 1915 great fire in San Francisco. EVERYONE in any field of medicine (even dentists like grandpa and veterinarians) were impressed into service to treat the wounded.

Hi catnip. That's amazing. I've always been fascinated by epidemics and medicine/nursing in particular. I imagine it must have seemed overwhelming to trained medical personnel in the middle of the 1918 flu epidemic, never mind non-medical folks who had to leap in and help out.

It's great that you know that much history about your grandparents. I'm so interested to know more about mine and regret very much that I didn't think to get more info from my parents and uncles and aunts. It never occurred to me until relatively recently to wonder about my grandfathers' work or the area where my paternal family came from in the UK. I know it's easier now to find out info online but so far I have delayed. It feels like such a big job and so I put it off. But soon, I hope, when the curiosity overwhelms me again, I'll get busy with at least some basic searches.

I did recently find my maternal gf's birth certificate and so we know his mum's name and origin (Irish). That feels amazing. For reasons that don't matter, I share that last name. I feel stupid because I've always thought it was Scottish. It sounds Scottish. But now I have a new direction to turn to for another search. I don't just want to find names but more so a bit of information about their lives.

Time, it marches, as they say in Quebec. Or at least the people I knew there did. I have to keep reminding myself to put down the book and dig around on various sites for some family info. It's fun and I'd love to leave the history for the nieces and nephews. Maybe one of them will also be interested or else somebody down the line in the future. I'll be a blob somewhere by then but maybe at least they'll see my name.

Thanks for the note, catnip. I'm very interested in the history of human diseases. Maybe weird but I enjoy it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2022 08:58PM by Nightingale.

Thanks for the link. Scary news.

This makes me think of how I saw so many "youth" (anybody under 40 qualifies as that as far as I'm concerned) who bragged they were *fit* and would have no problem with the virus because they were *young* and *fit* and other people should have gotten *fit* like they did and then it would be nothing but a cold.

After perusing this link I wonder if their brains were *fit* enough to suffer no cell damage? I have my suspicions as to the answer. Also seems much easier to get covid with your nose that high in the air.


So here's to me with my mask still around my neck ready to pull up at any time---even though I am very fit for 70 something.


My second thought then was it would be better wear nose plugs and at least try to get the virus in the mouth rather than the nose or even take it up the . . . :)


Yes. Still bitter about the deniers.

“Young and fit” didn’t stop polio from affecting young people, and same for smallpox. Ironically, the young and fit were the most likely to die from the 1918 Spanish flu.

With covid, being young helps quite a lot, but not always, and not everybody is young, a fact which is not going to change, hence the need to suppress covid in the entire population.

I always like your expansions to conversations. And I'm always tempted to believe you. :)

You have been warned about avoiding temptation.

I have failed to succumb to too many but I won't let that happen anymore.

Excellent!

https://headlines.peta.org/end-experiments-on-animals-for-covid-19/

Animal suffering is always an afterthought---at best.

Unless we are talking about foreigners and cute little Beagle puppies. In that case, let the outrage begin!

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/answering-questions-about-beaglegate/

But this is America. So, it must be O.K. But, by God, please don't show us any pictures of the monkeys, and please only refer to them as 'experimental models,' least we start thinking about living, conscious creatures, you know, like puppies.

I worked for a medical school for a year and a bit until I picked up the teaching gig. I was amazed at the hoops they had to jump through for animal studies, and even more hoops for human studies.

The regulators go to considerable lengths to insure that the animals are treated humanely. You may disagree as to their effectiveness, but they are certainly trying.

I saw the process from behind the scenes when I was at the med school, but last year got an offer to participate in an RSV vaccine study, and thought it would be interesting to see what it is like from the patient's side.

I got a stack of disclosure documents about a quarter inch thick. I had to sign and print my name all over the place, and if any of the letters in the printed version could be misread as another letter (capital W looking like capital M for example) I had to cross it out, initial, and re-print. The i dotting and t crossing was polished to a blinding sheen.

I got a card to carry in my wallet in case I ended up in an ER unconscious, about who to call. I get paid a nominal amount, $5 a week for doing a short survey each week for 9 months of the year, and a hundred and something for each annual blood draw. It was supposed to last three years, but has been scaled back to two.

I also got nasal swab kits to use if I ever came down with cold symptoms, but I haven't had a cold in four years. FedEx will hustle over and pick up the test kit if I ever have the opportunity to use one.


I mentioned to a retired epidemiologist friend that I was doing this. He said that he had been involved in an RSV vaccine program (as a doctor) back in the 1980s. Statistically, the vaccine under test made it more likely the patient would get RSV. That was not exactly reassuring. Apparently RSV has been a tough nut to crack. We got incredibly lucky with covid. Malaria has been a major killer for centuries, and we are finally getting some promising candidates for a malaria vaccine. And there is still no vaccine for AIDS.

Anyway, that's my report from both the front and back lines of vaccine testing.

RSV = Respiratory Syncytial Virus, which is somewhat dangerous for older people, and more dangerous for infants. I assume it will have to be tested on infants at some point. It has already been tested on animals, and is now being tested on the likes of people like me. Double blind study. I don't know if I actually got a vaccine or not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2022 01:36PM by Brother Of Jerry.

"The regulators go to considerable lengths to insure that the animals are treated humanely. You may disagree as to their effectiveness, but they are certainly trying."

COMMENT: Yes, I *do* disagree with this. In fact, emphatically! First, it is inconsistent with the historical record regarding the cavalier use of animals in the laboratory setting, which is well-established. Of course, laws have been imposed, and I suppose that some labs are better than others, and some researchers more sensitive than others. But the research assistants who are appropriately sensitive--in my view--have found other jobs.

Second, consider the 'humane' sensitivity as exhibited in the language of the opening paragraph of the linked study:

"ARS-CoV-2, the COVID-19 virus, caused significant neuron damage and inflammation within a week of infection in rhesus macaque monkeys, according to a new study. The researchers from the California National Primate Research Center at the University of California, Davis, also discovered that aged monkeys with Type 2 diabetes experienced worse virus-induced neurological damage. The findings, published in Cell Reports Oct. 12, provide a framework to study the long-term neurological symptoms linked to COVID-19."

So, here we have monkeys injected with the virus, who suffer 'significant neuron damage." Now we are not told (of course) what effect such damage had on these monkeys by way of symptoms, but we *do* know the effects of COVID in human patients, as they have described their pain, discomfort, and neurological and physical impairments. I suppose we can take some comfort in assuming that when the suffering appears sufficiently unbearable --or more likely when the monkey's condition renders it useless to the experimenters--they are 'promptly' euthanized. I suspect that that is about as 'humane' as it gets.

As for humans, they, of course, can give their consent. The precautions you describe I would cynically attribute to avoiding legal liability by complying with the law, rather than some deep concern over the welfare of their patients.

“Avoiding legal liability by complying with the law” is precisely why laws are passed. That’s kind of the point, to set a lower bar for behavior. The bar on treatment of animals has been raised, and will no doubt be raised more in coming years.

As for humans giving their consent, that is a fraught subject. People who consent to sell their plasma, or, where legal, kidneys, tend to be poor, though that is not always the case. Ditto people who consent to live in substandard housing, etc.

"'Avoiding legal liability by complying with the law' is precisely why laws are passed. That’s kind of the point, to set a lower bar for behavior. The bar on treatment of animals has been raised, and will no doubt be raised more in coming years.

COMMENT: Yes, that's true. The ethics bar in the treatment of animals as research subjects has been raised through the enactment of laws. However, those laws were initiated, not by the concern or sensitivity of researchers, but through pressure and public awareness resulting from the complaints of animal rights activists. Moreover, these laws were resisted by the researchers, and continue to be.
____________________________________________

As for humans giving their consent, that is a fraught subject. People who consent to sell their plasma, or, where legal, kidneys, tend to be poor, though that is not always the case. Ditto people who consent to live in substandard housing, etc.

COMMENT: Here I generally agree that consent is not without context, as is true in all decision-making.

I realize that it's a difficult ethical dilemma and we can't pretend the test animals are having fun.

But. What alternative is there to finding treatments and cures for diseases in humans?

We can only hope that most of the labs are indeed in the business of treating the animals humanely.

100% humane would, of course, be no animal testing at all. So we just don't search for treatments for human diseases?

Thanks for participating in the RSV study. RSV hospitalizations among adults are rising.

There was a news story last night about hospitals being swamped with kids with RSV, and it is not even high season yet. It seems to be a big thing all of a sudden.

Another insidious invasion of the brain is anti-vaxx disinformation.

Interesting perspective.

I guess you could say that the anti-vax infection paves the way for the actual infection, leaving significant road kill along the way.