The Fifth Estate is Canada's premier investigative show.

The Fifth Estate brings you Canada's top investigative stories. From across the country and around the world, Fifth Estate journalists dig deeper to get you the stories that matter.

Next episode:

Revealing how much money the Mormon church has raised in Canada and where much of it has gone; some former members in Canada and elsewhere say it's led them to leave the church.

I'm glad that this is being investigated. For the amount of money that the Canadian Mormon church sends to BYU, every Canadian student should be getting a full ride scholarship. It would be nice if the tax authorities cracked down on the church even further in this regard.

> For the amount of money that
> the Canadian Mormon church
> sends to BYU, every Canadian
> student should be getting a
> full ride scholarship.


If ghawd wanted Canadian LDS kids to get a free ride college education at the Y, he would have told the prophet.  The fact that they are NOT getting a free ride college education means ghawd doesn't agree with you.

Everything the church does is in accordance with ghawd's will, and it all unfolds in such exacting grandeur and detail as to be awe inspiring.

That's great. I hope reporters everywhere catch on to this topic and won't bend to the church's heavy PR hand over them.

Does the original poster (or anybody else) know when this episode can be heard.

blindguy: The best I can tell you at the moment is that the program is usually shown on Thursday nights at 9 PM on CBC TV. You have to check whether the time they're showing is Atlantic or Pacific time. Sometimes they announce something for 9 PM but here in B.C. that's actually 6 PM.

You can also stream it here: @CBCGem (at CBCGem). That is at CBC Gem (with a 'g') with no space between the letters. The first 4 letters are all capitalized.

I can't find a precise time and date at the moment. Maybe somebody else knows. It's not coming up on a search for me this morning and I'm just rushing out the door...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2022 12:51PM by Nightingale.

They say Canadians are known for their "extreme politeness". I don't know what that is. It's just the way things are. :P

Here's some sayings I saw online. Not meant to be offensive, but obviously we get compared to the US of A. A lot.

“A Canadian is sort of like an American, but without the gun."

"Canadians are more polite when they are being rude than Americans are when they are being friendly."

The last comment is likely a good prediction of how The Fifth Estate will handle their program on Mormonism. Still, the church won't like it. People may see that ugly underbelly.


On a different note, re the quote above about weapons, our PM just outlawed the sale of handguns in Canada. It's strange, and I never get used to it, to see so many people in the US who are armed just in the course of everyday life. The only time I've seen a gun is when I used to do ridealongs with the police. Even then, the weapons were always holstered. I never saw one being pulled out in anticipation of needing to use it. And then one time they took me and other community volunteers to a range and we learned how to shoot at a target. Somehow I managed to make a head shot. The trainer was impressed. He gave me the target (a lifesize sheet depicting a human). I kept it - I don't know why. It's not something I would ordinarily take pride in.

Sorry for the deflect.

But yes, the CBC program will do a great, and well-referenced, program on the Mormon Church and its money. You don't often hear anything about Mormonism up here, at least not in my little neck of the woods. I hope I don't miss it. I will return and report if I catch the show.

I love the two comparison quotes. Love.

My small sampling of Canadians tends to prove it.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the two comparison quotes. Love.

Me too.

First time I ever saw a handgun, Nightingale, was on the wintry Sunday I arrived in Toronto back in the late sixties. It was on the belt of a policeman at the airport.

Toronto excels at wintry Sundays, kentish. :)

I thought my father had first touched down in Toronto when he emigrated to Canada but I just recently discovered that he landed first in the good ol' USA. New York, of course. He never mentioned that intriguing detail to me. I would have liked to ask him about it.

I'm glad he ventured north, and west, so I can relish the sunny autumn days we're enjoying at the moment, after six months of hellish hotness, unusual for this area. We even got a little sprinkle of rain this a.m. I'm a delicate flower, not enjoying extremes of heat or cold so the west coast of the Lower Mainland in B.C. is pretty much perfect. Except for this pesky climate change thing we're experiencing with so much unusual weather. I'm the one on the beach under an umbrella. Can't take the heat.

As for the guns, yeah, I've never seen anyone on the street with one. That's illegal or something here. And now, even if you have a handgun you can't sell it. Or at least, not legally.

Sorry for the sidetrack, everybody.

I'll switch back to Mormonism now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2022 07:02PM by Nightingale.

I've got my PVR set to record it. Almost every Mormon kid I grew up with wanted to go to BYU. And the Moridor was full of satellite dishes tuned to receive KBYU too.

When is it on LR?

Thursday I believe CBC main network

It's showing on October 27. I'm setting my PVR for this one!

For people unfamiliar with the issue, here's the deal:

Canadians get a tax deduction for charitable contributions to churches, the rationale being that the churches provide services to Canadians that would have to be picked up by the government if the churches did not provide the services. (I know, what actual useful Service ices are provided by LDS Inc, but that is another issue)

If the church sends the money collected from Canadians out of the country, that tax deduction no longer applies, since the donations are not benefitting Canadians. I don't know if the donors are liable for the tax on the portion sent out of the country, or if the church must pay the tax. I would guess the latter, just as a practical matter. Denying part of a deduction for all the donors would be a total nightmare to administer.

There is a loophole in that law: money sent out of the country in support of a school does not invalidate the tax deduction. The rationale is that supporting schools in developing countries benefits the entire world, including Canadians, so the deduction is allowed.

The loophole does not specify that the schools must be in developing countries. So dear old LDS Inc takes all the money collected from members in Canada, and sends it to the 3 BYU schools. Since money is fungible, that means LDS Inc does not need to spend that amount in US contributions to fund the schools. the net effect is they can transfer all LDS contributions in Canada out of the country, and still keep the money tax free, violating the spirit, but not the letter of the Canadian law.

I have long thought that they get away with this because Canadians have no idea this is happening, and have wished that someone would raise a ruckus about it and get the law modified.

Apparently my wish if finally coming true. The Fifth Estate is the Canadian equivalent of Sixty Minutes. That will get noticed.

What do you call a developed country but is moving backward?

Does it become a developing country? An undeveloping country? Does the direction matter under Canadian law?

Asking for a friend, eh?

Are you asking if the US is regressing, so qualifies as needing schools to dig itself out of the hole of ignorance it finds itself in?

If that's the problem, I doubt BYU is the solution.

BTW, I did a long post on the public annual financial report that LDS Inc must file in Canada each year, It lists how much money is spent in Canada (not much other than admin salaries) and how much goes to each BYU campus. I believe they each got exactly a third of the total grift, er, donation.

My report was detailed enough to make your eyes glaze like a Ming vase. I can't find it right now, but will post a link if I find it.

I am indeed suggesting that the US is devolving. I've said this before, but some investment groups now assign the country a Third World political risk premium because of the insanity; likewise, according to Freedom House, the Economist Intelligence Unit, and other monitors, the good old USA is sliding down the ranks of countries with rule of law and functioning democracy.

Tongue in cheek, perpetually, in this instance asking at what point a country falls into the Canadian charity basket. But since we are discussing a law, I see no reason to expect a rational calculation of whether the loophole is beneficial to anybody (not to be confused with anybody).

Where do the laws on international aid kick in if BYU is indeed a basket case?

Here's hoping Justin Trudeau meets a Mormon he really doesn't like.

In the past, I've worked out how much the BYUs get per Canadian student. The last time I did the calculation, it was a minimum of $40K U.S. per student per year, and it has been as high as $60K+. It's the only way the church can legally funnel money out of Canada, so that's what they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2022 07:07PM by summer.

Prolly the best kick in the knackers?

A poor canuck who wants to go to BYU is SOL

https://enrollment.byu.edu/international-student-deposit

the Lard's university requires a deposit of US$4000 for all those goddamn furreners, including the so-called polite ones

Gratuitous joke sidebar: LW and D&D? you can both go to hell for all I care! (I hope this settles any lingering myths you have about the politeness of Canadians :) )

Back to the topic? BYU is for Americans and well-to-do international students, and I would have been unable to study there under the current rules

I think the same is true for Upper Snake River High in Rexburg, but I am too lazy to check

I subsequently attended real universities for professional and graduate school in the Great White North, and they were NOTHING like my BYU experience

> Gratuitous joke sidebar: LW and D&D? you can both
> go to hell for all I care! (I hope this settles
> any lingering myths you have about the politeness
> of Canadians :) )

You're no true Canadian (nor Scotsman either). Dollars to donuts you're really a Minnesotan trying to pass.


--------------------
> I subsequently attended real universities for
> professional and graduate school in the Great
> White North, and they were NOTHING like my BYU
> experience

"Real universities. . . in the Great White North?" Now we know you're lyin', eh?"

Caveat Emptor. Look into what you donate to.

Beauty eh? Sorry to offend the church and such. How about a donut to ease that pain?


Who doesn't love a donut?

HH =)

Link:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/fifthestate

The program is on CBUT, which is CBC Vancouver, on Thursday, October 27, at 9:00 p.m. (Pacific time).

It’s called ‘The Mormons’ Books’. Here is their description of the upcoming program:

“The Fifth Estate reveals how much money the Mormon church has raised in Canada and where much of it has gone. Some former members in Canada and elsewhere say it has led them to leave the church.”


Here is another brief outline of the program from the CBC website:

“The Fifth Estate reveals nearly $1 billion raised by the Mormon church in Canada has been funnelled to the U.S. rather than going to charitable works in this country.

“We hear from former members in Canada and elsewhere who say concerns about how money is spent have led them to leave the church.

“Watch the investigation Thursday at 9 p.m. (9:30 p.m. in Newfoundland) on CBC-TV and CBC Gem.”

-----

The announcement I heard today on CBC TV about the program said that it’s about “the Mormon Church of Canada” concerning information obtained from whistleblowers. The announcer states to expect “stunning financial revelations” adding “They are a business dabbling in religion.”

Here’s a general link to The Fifth Estate web page:

cbc.ca/fifth

(no capital letters in the last link)


“They are a business dabbling in religion.” Ouch.

The people who hire on to make money for the church, are they paid less than they would get if they did that same work for a regular brokerage?

And what about year end bonuses?  Is a Christmas card from Rusty and Wendy (and Sheri) enough, or would not getting cold, hard cash piss those money-makers off?

Why do they even need minions to pick out stocks?  Why aren't they relying on revelation?

Got faith?

I wonder if the subtitle of the program will be reassuring to the Big-3. "The Mormon Church in Canada".

So it could be a case of the Canadian church going rogue but the American version, where it all began, being on the straight and narrow.

Those darn Canucks, eh.

Burn!

TBMs’ lower lips will quiver as they once again feel the wrath of the adversary to the one true church.

While the exposé may cause some members to waver, I doubt any nonmember is going to watch the program and feel the need to join the one true tax dodger.

It looks like the church and the way it handles its finances are starting to draw attention in more countries. Unfortunately all too often churches are given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to handling donations. But the Ensign Peak revelation has opened a lot of people's eyes to what can actually happen. There is no way a church that is ultimately a tiny fraction of the population can amass hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in assets (and maybe even a TRILLION by some estimates) if it is using its donations for charitable efforts. Churches receive tax breaks because of the inherent belief that they are benefiting the public. But hoarding hundreds of billions of dollars is in no way beneficial to the public, and more people are starting to recognize that.

I agree.

I'd go so far as to say religions should require even more scrutiny by nature of the "business" and "product" they provide. It's right up there with pyramid schemes and health supplements when it comes to potential scam abuse.

Since they are based on faith claims from the get-go, they should not be given cover in their finances and other practices. Jesus should not be about getting rich and maintaining power through politics, but here we are. Selling afterlife promises and buying real estate or jets from it should require greater transparency than it does, IMO.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus should not be
> about getting rich and maintaining power through
> politics, but here we are.

Matthew 19:24 - “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

The interpretation of that verse, that I've heard most commonly, is that it's OK to have wealth but don't put it first in your life, above all other values. Sharing is a good value, among others, but it's amazing how many people with bucks seek to horde it all for themselves.

Re politics, using political power as a cudgel is also a major fail.


Philippians 2: 3, 4 - "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."


Hording wealth and lack of concern for others. Not a good look.

I will be so interested to see any feedback about this program, coming up tomorrow. Unfortunately, most journalists, amongst others, don't engage in incisive questioning on issues like this, perhaps for fear of causing offence. And certainly, church leaders and others under scrutiny, especially regarding finances, fail to answer the tough questions. Or at least, not accurately.

I've always wondered how people can justify their own deceitful acts to themselves. Surely someone, somewhere, in the church hierarchy knows what's up with the $$$. Or are they so far gone they just literally cannot see it?

I don't get how the leaders can swan around in luxury planes and dine well and be bowed and scraped to and never stop to ask what's wrong with this picture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2022 12:28PM by Nightingale.

Nighty, you apparently need more practice cherry picking scriptures! (J/k)
I'm sure people could find contradictory scriptures about how God rewards people.

Seriously, thanks for being a good example of Christianity that isn't crazy.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nighty, you apparently need more practice cherry
> picking scriptures! (J/k)

Haha.


> I'm sure people could find contradictory
> scriptures about how God rewards people.

Yes, true enough. That's why it's so much like climbing uphill all too often.


> Seriously, thanks for being a good example of
> Christianity that isn't crazy.

I don't know about that. :)

I'm still embarrassed at having joined not just the JWs but also the Mormons. They are so similar in their conversion outreach, internal workings, and control measures over their flock. You'd think I'd have recognized that and run a mile from the mo mishies, after my unpleasant JW interlude. Instead, it felt familiar and interesting, especially because both times it was friends that got me into it. Newsflash: It wasn't all that interesting as it turns out.

I was naive. Sometimes I have to get punched in the gut more than once to figure something out. But now I've got the message all right. Spend at least as much time looking into a church that's beckoning you as you would in trying out a used car. And if they're trying to rush you, as the mishies did me, pressuring me about baptism from day 1, see that as the red flag it is.

I try to seek middle ground, in values and beliefs, as well as in getting along and understanding others. I credit my parents for teaching us to always see both sides of a question. Unfortunately for me, that often results in being a wee bit wavery at times, as in no set ideas on certain issues. But I prefer that to being 100% sure I know "the truth" and being wrong. And obnoxious.

Many of the churches in my area have outreaches to help people living in poverty and also refugees from various countries. I don't join the churches - I am no longer a joiner - but I contribute to their efforts in whatever small ways I can, mostly labour. I have met the most amazing people, such as a refugee family from Syria I helped some years ago when they first arrived here and ended up in a basement suite that flooded on a rainy day. They had newborn twins and no food. It was a holiday weekend, so a challenge to find official assistance for them. But we managed to solve the many urgent issues, the babes thrived, as did their other kids, and we found them a better place to live. From the beginning, they prayed in front of me at their appointed times and it wasn't an issue for us at all. If I had still been a JW I wouldn't have been able to be present for that - so ridiculous! Lovely people, beautiful kids and we are very fond of each other. So I also received welcome positive outcomes from that experience.

I know that many who help are not Christian. We don't have the monopoly on that.

One of my favourite refrains is "Can't we all just get along?" so that's pretty much my take on life. Whatever happens after that, if anything, well, we won't know until we know. :)

Meanwhile, I try to stay on the sane side of the aisle as much as possible. A lot of it is common sense, it seems. Unfortunately, all too often that's in short supply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2022 01:33PM by Nightingale.

Canada...

https://www.demilked.com/funny-memes-o-canada/