I'm watching a new series on Netflix called Godless. Episode 2 the villain in the series was a member of the Fancher party and describes in detail about the slaughtering at Mountain meadows. He says he was taken into the Haight family and raised. Kind of surprised the heck out of me to see that on a mainstream film. I wonder what the response will be from the folks in Salt Lake

Hard to believe that, in so many ways, the church has gone downhill from the MMM.  That was just innocent butchery, which I genuinely believe was blood lust revenge for Parley P. Pratt's death in Arkansas; as in Arkansas people killed Parley P., so let's kill some Arkansas people!!

In my mind, that would have been the talking point of those men at the tip of the mormon spear, pumping themselves up to do the deed...

The fact that the Francher Party left Arkansas before Parley P. was killed was entirely beside the point.

How deadly is mormonism?  How dead do you want to be?
                Both are rhetorical questions.

I think a big part of it was there was money to be made.

But ‘Arkansas’ was the convenient excuse.

I agree with both of you, Susan and EOD. Arkansas was an excuse to kill them, but local mormons got involved for the spoils. Nasty.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2022 01:03PM by Soft Machine.

I think that there's little doubt that the Mormons wanted the Fancher Party's stuff.

They were certainly very pleased to have it afterwards, that's for sure.

Will Bagley was asked repeatedly if a child was left in Cedar City after the orphans were gathered and sent back to family in Arkansas.

It's a question he researched diligently and he said that there was no child left behind.

I grew up in Southern Utah and know the family name of the child that was supposedly left. (Not with the Haights).The decendents of that child have been DNA tested and were found not to be connected to the Fancher party.

Of course, there would always be a remote possibility - say the family took the child and left the area. But that's not what the "rumors" claimed. People claimed to know the present descendents. But that hasn't checked out.

Incidentally, a rumor also claimed that the "Haight family" had been cursed for Isaac Haight's role in the massacre and it was said that henceforth, "they would walk with a gait". And there was someone from that family that I witnessed myself that "walked with a gait".

A historical display in the Cedar City airport features Isaac Haight's multifeatured role in the development of Cedar City, including his term as Mayor (from 1853-1861) and member of the territorial legislature. Not surprisingly, his role in the 1857 MMM isn't mentioned.

Spintobear Wrote:
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> Kind of surprised the heck out of me to
> see that on a mainstream film. I wonder what the
> response will be from the folks in Salt Lake


Someone at Netflix seems to be ok with outing the TSCC's violent and monstrous history. They're streaming "Murder Among the Mormons" (Mark Hofmann story), and "Under the Banner of Heaven" (Lafferty story). They also produced "Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey", which to a large extent was a repackaging or retelling of a lot of existing material on Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, meaning that they're presenting that information to a wider audience, who might not otherwise even see it.


It looks like Godless was released in 2017, so if the morg is going to react, they probably already have.

Maybe they did, but nobody noticed, which is even worse... for the Morg ;-)

Hahaha. Yeah, they don't register as high on the public's radar as they'd like to think they do. ;)

Wait--

Are you telling us that Jeopardy is not an accurate portrayal of American culture?

For 400, these religious adherents mistakenly believe that they are held in high regard by the rest of society.

Nice!

For 800, these religious adherents mistakenly believe that the rest of society is aware of their existence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2022 09:23PM by Lot's Wife.

You climbed on the shoulders of those who went before you, and they were giants!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> For 800, these religious adherents mistakenly
> believe that the rest of society is aware of their
> existence.


Even better! :D

For 1000, the few people aware of these religious adherents most commonly describe them as "weird."

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone at Netflix seems to be ok with outing the
> TSCC's violent and monstrous history. They're
> streaming "Murder Among the Mormons" (Mark Hofmann
> story), and "Under the Banner of Heaven" (Lafferty
> story). They also produced "Keep Sweet: Pray and
> Obey", which to a large extent was a repackaging
> or retelling of a lot of existing material on
> Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, meaning that they're
> presenting that information to a wider audience,
> who might not otherwise even see it.

There's a channel here (I forget which one but one other than Netflix) that is featuring the Jeffs history. I find I'm not into watching it at the moment. It makes me think of the women I met from the Bountiful community here in B.C. It's just the saddest thing. And it's completely maddening that after many years of investigations and abundant obvious evidence of harm to children and women the government of this province decided not to prosecute the leaders any further. The salacious grins on the men's fat faces could put you right off the male sex forever, I'm sorry to say. I cannot imagine the appalling experiences the females of all ages have in those compounds and our government is A-OK with it. I don't even understand it. If a man anywhere else committed ONE act of child molestation/rape they would surely be prosecuted and convicted and jailed.

What the thinking was behind letting Blackmore et al carry on with business as usual I will never understand.

I get upset just thinking of it again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2022 07:06PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The salacious
> grins on the men's fat faces could put you right
> off the male sex forever,


That reminds me of something...

As I mentioned earlier, "Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey" rehashed a lot of existing material/events, but one of the new things it included -- at least that I hadn't seen before -- was a lot of home movie style video from within the group.

One thing that particularly turned my stomach was that the women came into a room to sing a song and dance for the men, and when they were done, one of the [cave]men shouted, "now go do the dishes."

My first husband said something like that, may he rest in peace.

"Him make Hulk mad!"

No anger at all, just the swift smoothing out of an insignificant cosmic irregularity.

Speaking of which, have you noticed any gravitational fluctations in your neck of the woods?

My neck of the woods is choked with Christmas Spirit; it's very constricting!

Then the spirit will smooth out any irregularities in the moral fabric of the cosmos. My work is done.

Unless, of course, the spirit fails to come through.

I'm hanging onto my shares in the Dream Mine...

You can all kiss my grits when that mother-lode comes in!!!!!

The only thing that may come out of that hole in the ground is amber, Amber.

Spintobear Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Episode 2 the villain in the series was a
> member of the Fancher party and describes in
> detail about the slaughtering at Mountain meadows.
> He says he was taken into the Haight family and
> raised.


That's interesting! Is the premise that he's a bad guy BECAUSE he was raised by the Haight family? Mormon?

It's ironic that a victim in MMM would become a bad guy.


Anyway, it sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out.

When we discussed this before we determined that the gang leader in the movie was too old to have been a child at the MMM.

I watched the first episode last night with my daughters. Because of the timing, and because Roy Goode was adopted by the gang leader, I assumed that Roy was orphaned at MMM, and that Frank Griffin was the Mormon who had adopted him. Only after doing some reading today about the show did I realize that Frank is supposed to be the one that was orphaned there.

Anyway, I didn't want to read too much, since we've only seen one episode, but I was curious about the Mormon connection.

There was a lot of character development in the first episode. Frank Griffin, the gang leader, is developed as a violent criminal, with an odd mix of spirituality, and feeling ok about his actions. Apparently blood atonement is described in episode 2. From the descriptions of it being pretty gruesome, I'm sort of dreading seeing it, but at the same time want to see the story develop.

It would be interesting to discover later that Roy actually WAS an orphan from MMM, that Frank participated, and was simply blame shifting by claiming to be a victim rather than a perpetrator, but I'm guessing that's not how it plays out.

I saw it too. I was startled.

as erroneous (inaccurate as to Facts or reasons)as recent productions are or might be, I can stick to - with Juanita Brooks' book and the truths she thankfully left us; Long may her memory live in the hearts and minds of those who love the Truth.⁹

Netflix should interview Mattson and Phillips and do an expose on the second anointing.

^^^ yes ^^^


It would also be an interesting plot point to discover Griffin had received the 2nd anointing, so felt he could do anything he wants with impunity, but, again, I'm assuming that's not how the story goes.

.....or interview descendants of Eldred Smith and cover how he was passed over by Heber J. Grant and the church chose a homosexual, left the office vacant for 10 years and later just did away with the patriarch all together when he died.

You WISH those events of your past would disappear down the memory hole...

How's that going for you?


polygamy

Joey marrying other men's wives

Brigham's shenanigans with church $

the WHOLE 'curse of cain' thingee

Kolob

lack of financial transparency

'I'm MORMON'!


Lots of headaches with no end in sight, regardless of how many quit.

Last night my daughters and I watched the 2nd episode, and almost half of the 3rd before turning off the TV.

The 2nd episode wasn't as horrific as I thought it would be (https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/11/182479/godless-frank-griffin-true-story-mountain-meadows-massacre), but perhaps because I know the MMM story.

Anyway, I thought their treatment/description of MMM was fairly accurate, although as others have noted, a bit of an anachronism in terms of the timeline.

But Griffin is definitely a monster, and he definitely believes in blood atonement. If I read between the lines correctly, it seems to be the main story driver (Griffin's obsession with finding his "son").

I don't want to drop too many spoilers though, for people who are going to watch it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2022 07:19PM by Gordon B. Stinky.

We watched through episode 4 last night.

A number of tangential story lines have been introduced. Griffin’s complex character continues to be fleshed out, but this time with some genuinely sympathetic characteristics demonstrated.

If the MMM didn't reveal a basic flaw in Mormon 'thinking' / culture, it would have been 'under the rug' a while back, apologies could have been tendered, compensation negotiated, and those involved given a chance to heal;

but NO, ChurchCo decided to deny & covered it up as long as they could get away with it until Juanita Pulsipher Brooks (1/1898 to 8/1989 came along & exposed it; as memory serves, a leader left good source material on his desk & left the room while telling Juanita 'not to look at it' or something like that.

I distinctly remember the day I heard about her passing on NPR which piqued me into buying her book and learning the details she wrote.


Long may her memories live in the lives of those who love the truth...


(her name is my suggestion for re-naming BYU)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2022 01:03PM by GNPE.

We watched through episode 6 last night.

Griffin is kind to children, the sick, and animals.

The series is set in 1884. The MMM took p!ace on 1857 and Griffin would have to have been very young, younger than 7 , to have survived. Likely his character would have to have been born in the early 1850s to be a surviving child. Unless he is suffering from some unmentioned ageing disease he certainly isn't in his early 30s in the series.

Yes, timewise it would have made more sense for the Roy Goode character to have been through MMM, especially since he was adopted.

We just watched through the end. It's a good series in terms of the stories, but there was no closure re. blood atonement, except maybe that Griffin's life philosophies fail him at the end (I'm being deliberately vague--don't want to spoil it for anyone who wants to watch it). MMM never comes up again either.

Let me just add that the series doesn't need a hyper "mormon" focus. But given the MMM and blood atonement details incorporated in episode 2, I just wish it had more.