White, middle-aged Americans without a college degree are dying "of despair" more than previously.

Researches Tyler Giles of Wellesley College, Daniel Hungerman of the University of Notre Dame, and Tamar Oostrom of The Ohio State University, looked at the relationship between religiosity and mortality from deaths of despair. The paper was circulated by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

Apparently, the opportunity to shop on a Sunday takes butts out of pews...and so white working-class folks die...it's a theory TSCC could use (without referencing it?) to drive greater attendance.

The article stated that simply being religious (personal prayer or other individual actions) isn't enough....attendance at formal services keeps "death by despair" away.

Interesting.

Did they talk to exmormons. I was dying of despair in the church. My "husband" told our daughter when our daughter was trying to get me to go back to church "your mother was never happy in the church." I didn't realize how much I wasn't happy. All my siblings, but the disabled one are out of the church. My daughter is the only grandkid who is active. She was anti for a long time. No despair here. You can shop on Sundays before and after church or how about Jews, etc., and Catholics can go to mass more than just Sundays, can't they?

cl2notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
You can shop on Sundays
> before and after church or how about Jews, etc.,
> and Catholics can go to mass more than just
> Sundays, can't they?

What about Jews?

I'm not sure how it could be applied to Jews. So their Sabbath is Saturday, and whether they follow it or not isn't down to whether things are open or not. It seems like the gist of the study is that without one day off to spend in prayer/group worship, people are more likely to die. It really doesn't matter if it's sunday for christians, saturday for jews, friday for muslims, etc.

Most of the jews in the world are secular or mostly secular and don't go to services other than the major holidays or events. Orthodox, ultra orthodox, they're a minority. Even if the ultra orthodox stayed home from shul on saturday, the follow the laws to the degree that they're to abstain from work even tearing toilet paper, turning off lights or carrying things outside their houses. If that's where sabbath and not working or causing others to work on the sabbath comes from, it's not just about butts in seats anyway.

(FYI people inclined to go to services beyond the high holy days DO go to services for passover, and during Sukkot. Within sukkot is the third most important holiday of the year, it's the third in the new year holiday trio. People go to services for that)

Well I was never happy being at church. I hated being called upon to give regurgitated talks (I always made my own with lots of humor in them). I was raked over the coals for praying wrong.

My parents were converts and I grew to despise them because they weren't Mormon enough- pretty sick, eh?

I used to experience moral dilemmas since my mom WOULD GO SHOPPING after the 3 hour block. We always saw other members of the ward grocery shopping after church. Those members felt guilty and confessed to the bishop. Yet I was the one called in to admit to breaking the Mormon Sabbath. They never asked my mom about her need to buy milk and other things on Sundays.

The Mormon church caused all my despair.

If someone is dying of despair because there is too much shopping on Sunday, somebody's study needs to be looked at a little more closely. I smell religious agenda.

Perhaps these people would have gone to any length not to have to go to church and listen to that drivel one more time.

Sunday shopping or not is somewhat a dilemma bc some employees need the income, others Hate working on Sunday.

Service workers like police, fire & most transportation workers know before they join.

I used to think that not shopping on sundays is a good moral choice, but Im pretty much over that…

Same here. For many years I would not shop on Sundays, not because I was religious, but because I wanted those who are religious to have an opportunity to go to church.

I worked retail part time for the five years that I was in school and starting my career. My normal shift was Friday night, all day Saturday, and Sunday afternoons. Every single weekend was work. Although the late opening on Sunday allowed for church-going in the morning, some workers refused to work Sundays at all, and our employer accommodated that. After a time I started to feel resentment about that. Maybe I would have liked the occasional Sunday off as well. I felt it wasn't fair to the non-religious.

Why should YOU have to cater to the religious types?

Sorta agree; but when I was Mormon, My first job was at McDonald's, soon to become a shift manager (in pretty Mormon populated area). Mormons wouldn't allow their kids to work Sundays so all of the Non-LDS kids/young adults ended up having to work. Guess who it always was coming through the Drive-Thrus??? You guessed it, Mormons! Because women were too busy in meetings or too tired or weren't supposed to labor on the Sabbath. But mind you, it was always the Drive thru because they couldn't take a chance that another Mormon might see them. Then on Stake Conference days our sales would double because of all of the Mormons having to come in to get their soft serve cones during the breaks in sessions or on their way home. A few months later I go on my mission and an investigator pointed out that Sunday was really the only family time they could spend together going to amusement parks, movies, parks or watching games/movies together. So his temple/worship time was spent with family?!?!

No LDS inc. is very hypocritical; they own the mall and areas where there's Chilis' or Applebees that serve alcohol or stores that sell beautiful or cute blouses/dresses that show too much shoulder and too much thigh or rude, racy t-shirts and hats or games that might involve evil (i.e. Oujia boards, Monopoly, Dungeons& Dragons) or music stores that sell questionable music. BUT YOU MAKE SURE YOU DON'T OR ALLOW YOUR CHILDREN NEAR SUCH ITEMS!!!

I believe it was in the late 1950s that a big store opened, near where 5th St. and Main St. came together, near the border of Las Vegas and North Las Vegas.

Later there were four locations, but the one above was the first.  They were like Walmart is now, with groceries and department store stuff.  Ice cream cones were a dime, and a dozen delicious donuts sold for 49 cents.

What made this 'mormon-notable' was that mormons owned it, and good mormons that they were, it was initially closed on the Sabbath!  My memory may be a little too enthusiastic, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't sell cigarettes, and maybe no alcoholic products, when they first opened.  I remember hearing people talk at church, praising the owners.

But by the early 1960s, they were open on Sundays, and selling ciggies and at least beer.

I never heard anyone in my ward, or the stake, saying anything about being disappointed in the owners.  I think mormons will take money over anything, including piety.

Ah yes, like when my TBM father said the Marriotts would never offer pornography in their hotels. I showed him some articles documenting that they did, and he never mentioned them again.

Some things that are true. . .

Have friend with grocery stores and they finally quit alcohol and tobacco sales completely.

After they got rid of the cigs a State Regulator came in and demanded to see the records of their sales - and the owner was there and kicked the guy out, physically.

They were tired of sting operations, having to card people and not being able to tell good FAKE ID's from real ones. Tired of having to fire some help when they were fooled and then fined, both the help and the store.

Funny thing, after they dumped the stuff their overall store sales picked up.

Fascinated in the Midwest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently, the opportunity to shop on a Sunday
> takes butts out of pews...and so white
> working-class folks die...it's a theory TSCC could
> use (without referencing it?) to drive greater
> attendance.

For Jews, that would most likely be Friday sundown through Saturday sundown (weekly Shabbat). (The times of the day, and the specific days of the week, might also, in addition, be connected to other Jewish religious holidays, such as Jewish New Year, etc.)

Also: what about the Jewish holidays which are observed totally at home, such as Passover and Sukkot?

I also wonder if the same conclusions could be expected to apply to Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, (etc.).

There are many very active world religions existing in North America other than just the Christian ones, and at least some of them should be included in any similar study before the study itself is considered conclusive.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2023 05:47PM by Tevai.

Passover and sukkot aren't observed totally at home. Only people in very secular denominations, like Reform/Liberal, do that. Synagogues still have services, but those denominations don't really prioritize them because theirs is more of a cultural/ethnic and also metaphorical philosophy.

anonynon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passover and sukkot aren't observed totally at
> home. Only people in very secular denominations,
> like Reform/Liberal, do that.

Technically, you are correct. Certain prayers [most commonly Shacharit: the morning prayers; Mincha: the afternoon prayers; and Ma'ariv, the evening prayers] are supposed to be said only in a minyan: a group which consists of either ten Jewish men (this is for those who are Orthodox), or of ten Jewish adults (males and females, which means: over the age of 13 for males; for females the age is 12) --but this doesn't have to take place in a synagogue. It can take place, and very frequently does take place (on a daily basis), anywhere you can get a minyan together (it could be at work, or on the train or subway going to work, etc.).

< Synagogues still have services, but those denominations don't
> really prioritize them because theirs is more of a
> cultural/ethnic and also metaphorical philosophy.

I don't understand what you mean by a "metaphorical" philosophy.

I agree there is often more of an emphasis on traditional daily Jewish prayer (Shacharit; Mincha; Ma'ariv) among those who identify as traditionally Orthodox than there is among most Jews who identify with their choice of the other Jewish denominations (Conservative, Reform, etc.), but this view may be misleading from an "outside" the Jewish community viewpoint. For non-Jews (or for new Jews, because converts to Judaism, in our current time period, are substantial and growing) this can be difficult to understand, at least initially.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2023 04:30PM by Tevai.

Reform Judaism doesn't take a literalist approach. There is no focus on daily prayer, observance of halacha rules is minimal, eschatological beliefs are more figurative and the emphasis is on ethics, morals, universalist and enlightenment ideas.

Source: Raised reform, father's family was orthodox, most of my extended family is on the Conservative spectrum from liberal conservative to conservadox.

anonynon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reform Judaism doesn't take a literalist approach.

True.

> "There is no focus on daily prayer": [this depends entirely on the individual Jew who identifies as Reform, and possibly the larger Jewish community, or family, they are a part of]...

..."observance of halacha rules is minimal" [again, this depends on the individual Jew and/or their Jewish community or Jewish family. What IS often true is that Reform Jews are free to, essentially, pick and choose their level of observance, and also the reasoning they, personally, use to decide their level of observance]...

..."eschatological beliefs are more figurative" [I think I agree with you here, if I am understanding you correctly]...

..."and the emphasis is on ethics, morals, universalist and enlightenment ideas" [this is true for all Jews, of all Jewish denominations and ethnic groups].

[Being a "good person" (by that person's own definition of what is a "good person") is a huge consideration for almost all Jews, and this is, additionally and very often, also observed by non-Jews, because Jews are so often centrally involved in community improvements, etc., whether in leadership positions, or because of monetary or other donations, etc.]

"The ultra-Orthodox sometimes being a possible exception." Yup, especially depending on the individual ultra-Orthodox group involved. [Modern Orthodox are usually the most liberal among the various groups on the rather expansive Orthodox spectrum.]
>
> "Source: Raised reform, father's family was
> orthodox, most of my extended family is on the
> Conservative spectrum from liberal conservative to
> conservadox."

[Yup. Although I had no idea what I was actually doing at the time (I just knew that I was "really," inside of me, a Jew--something I first realized when I was in seventh grade, in Junior High School, and I did not want to potentially mess things up by asking too many awkward questions).

I converted through the University of Judaism in Los Angeles (located on the San Fernando Valley side of the mountains which surround the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles), a university which--in "Christian" terms--is part of the Conservative movement (Christians would say "denomination"), and is now known as American Jewish University. (In addition to being a regular university, it is also a Conservative-based rabbinical school for Jews who are earning their credentials so they can enter the rabbinate.)]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2023 01:22AM by Tevai.

I think you might just have to trust me on this one about reform and daily prayers. I grew up in the synagogue, religious school once a week, hebrew school twice a week. We didn't learn prayers beyond, say, the motzi. My mother also grew up reform, she also had no concept of the nuances of rabbinic judaism. I didn't either till I studied on my own.

It was the (for lack of better term) hippy-dippy nature of the reform branch (or at least as it was in the 70-80s) that left me incredibly confused and searching for more structure in religion because we only went to services on the high holy days. We weren't taught how to have a relationship with God, or how to pray outside the context of the prayers for the torah ark opening and closing, etc. Saturday services were b'nei mitzvot, and friday night services were also in conjunction with the bar/bat mitzvah boy/girl. I was lost in the world and wanted something, especially since my family was nuts, I wanted normalcy. Like my friends whose families went to church and did church things and understood how to pray in an accessible way. (orthodoxy held no appeal, my father's family, sephardic/orthodox refused to recognize me, my sibling and my motheras jewish because we were reform)

I joke that what I learned in 12 years of religious school was the holidays, and the snacks and songs that went along with them.

As a teen, I was a seeker. New Age, christianity,scientology, Mormonism. Only the latter got hooks into me for a while, a long while with social ramifications.

I eventually went through the atheism cycle. I've always been obsessed with religion, and went back to school for another degree in comparative ancient and modern semitic religions (hellenistic jews, jewish christians, karaite jews, samaritans, etc.). I found my way back to judaism and a branch that aligns with my convictions (also universalist): Reconstructionist.

I'm glad you found a spiritual home that works for you. I'm familiar with a few Jewish institutes of higher learning in California, though not the one you mentioned. Both of the ones I'm thinking of have cantorial schools, one is reform and the other is mixed branches/denominations.

You will notice the Book of Mormon does not mention any stores open on Sabbath. Observant Christian Jews - before Jesus, even.

I saw a recent study about happiness that was cited in a news article. Church-going was the biggest source of happiness, with time outdoors a close second.

I think that going to church does make some people very happy. Or maybe they are conditioned to respond that it makes them happy. It almost never made me happy. I found the Catholic mass to be long, dull, and boring. For me, it was the opposite of spiritual fulfillment. I did enjoy some Protestant services. But overall, the outdoors is my "church."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2023 04:14PM by summer.

The group who commissioned the study would like for the world to be essentially shut down on their chosen day of Sabbath. They presumably believe that if golf courses, tennis courts, ski resorts, theatres, workout facilities, public pools (they would make it unlawful for people to swim in their private pools if it were feasible), shopping venues, beaches, professional sports, state and national parks, and everything else with any entertainment value whatsoever (they would even shut off TV/streaming service if they could) were inactivated on Sundays, people would attend church out of sheer boredom.

I can only speak for myself, but even if the zealots were able to shut down everything that they would like, I would sleep all day or stare at walls before I would attend church on anything resembling a regular basis.

At least we have plenty of solid (soiled?) evidence that no religion has ever forced madams (with the right connections), and their brothels, out of business!

At least we can be thankful for that.

One of my top five broadcast TV high points was the Simpson's episode where Bart gets a job at the local brother, and he's behind the entryway desk when grandpa Simpson walks in ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBmAPyZsbRA


edited to add a clip with more background, and the episode's resolution... (but you can't blink at the end lest you miss said resolution!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqV3NmD4ng



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2023 04:35PM by elderolddog.

I cannot buy into this so called study.

The only ones this would apply to are those who are paranoid\terrified about dealth, and eternally burning in some pit of fire. Under that mind set, yes, I could see the claims\conclusions of the study.

But for those of who have a clue, the study would not apply. But instead it would bring hearty laughter on our part.

I am willing to bet it is one of those structured studies that is comformed for the desired results of keeping the paranoid in the pews.

They are dying because of poor diets. Americans are eating themselves to death.