if you are an adult, can read moderately well, and still claim that the book of mormon is written by Jewish people from the time 2200 years ago,

you are dishonest, or you've never actually read the book of mormon.

I don't buy the argument that people are brainwashed.

So if it's not brain-washing, what keeps "the Faithful" in the pews and writing tithing checks?

One thing I can't quite buy is that my TBM daughter is "too stupid" to figure it out...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing I can't quite buy is that my TBM
> daughter is "too stupid" to figure it out...


That's the thing. Some of the Church leaders are owners of law firms, doctors, surgeons, owners of huge hotel chains, etc. These people are not stupid.

Some of my TBM friends are extremely intelligent, holding very high positions in their companies, and I know that they truly believe it.

It is difficult to fathom, but I know how they feel about the Church. I figure that everyone reacts to evidence differently, although as has been mentioned, not everyone has seen the evidence. They don't know that it's out there, they refuse to look at it, or they simply dismiss it, which is what I used to do.

difference between reading it/thinking about what you are reading and reading it to get it over with

I used to think it was brainwashing but find it very hard to believe anymore. Too many TBM's in my family with college degrees even unto doctorates.

You could say the children are indoctrinated, but at a certain point they are willing to disregard blatant facts in order to feed their "we're-God's-chosen" egos.

Mormons have very unhealthy egos. They need to believe they are winning when they are not. And---being the ones who didn't drink coffee feeds that--even as it bolsters the human need to be "in on the secret" and the only ones benefiting from "the secret". That assuages their "little town blues". And compartmentalization is their method.

They must look at their religion as removed from their education. The lord works in mysterious ways etc. That is a compartmentalization tool that allows the mental bifurcation that relieves them from having to admit they are lying to themselves.

Yep. Compartmentalization.

And in that process intelligence is helpful.

Yes. Too often we forget that intelligence can be used to promote evil. Education doesn't have as much to do with doing the right thing as people would hope.

Confucius remarked that intelligence without education is a waste but education without intelligence is dangerous.

That observation seems compatible with your view.

Then why do we keep putting people with neither in charge?

Because we are dangerously wasteful?

I don't think it's that black and white....dishonest or haven't read it.

There are many reasons people defend the BOM as true. My father was very honest in life, and read the BOM many times. I think he wanted it to be true so he accepted it as true.

That and the compartmentalizing thing D&D and LW mentioned.

The same could be said for any religious text.

Heartless Wrote:
------------------------
> The same could be said
> for any religious text.


Not to mention, the U.S. Tax Code!!!

Hasty Generalization
A hasty generalization is a claim based on a few examples rather than substantial proof. Arguments based on hasty generalizations often don't hold up due to a lack of supporting evidence: The claim might be true in one case, but that doesn't mean it's always true.

Hasty generalizations are common in arguments because there's a wide range of what's acceptable for "sufficient" evidence. The rules for evidence can change based on the claim you're making and the environment where you are making it — whether it's rooted in philosophy, the sciences, a political debate, or discussing house rules for using the kitchen.
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

It is a reoccurring argument here. I understood as a child there was no solid evidence for the BoM but of course I wasn't brainwashed.

I think that any religious belief, or myth, is complex, which is why it's so hard to walk away from it. You have been raised to believe that it's true by people that you trust. You have been thoroughly educated in it. It ties into your emotions, hopes, dreams, and fears. It is a part of your family and group identity.

In my case, I left Catholicism relatively early (in my teens,) but it took me a *lot* longer to question Christianity (a process that began in my 20s and 30s, and lasted well into my 50s,) and even the character of Jesus of Nazareth (within the past couple of years.) That's how long it has taken to shake early indoctrination.

People believe things because that belief satisfies some deep inner need.

> People believe things because that belief
> satisfies some deep inner need.

Sometimes the religion creates the need and then offers to satisfy it. Realizing the provenance of the need then becomes a greater challenge than recognizing the factual and doctrinal fraud.

In Eastern terms, you cannot achieve liberation until you move beyond the needs that bind you to the faith: you must be willing to kill the Buddha.

Good point. Doctrines such as Original Sin are obnoxious. I wasn't born sinful, I was born an innocent human being -- and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't need to be forgiven -- well, sometimes I do, but then I go to the person that I have offended and say, "I'm sorry." And why should we sweat the small stuff, anyway? I am perfectly acceptable to my family and friends. Why wouldn't I be perfectly acceptable to God? The entire basis of religion that we are not inherently good enough, that we can never be good enough, is bunk. Why do I need to perfect myself? Do dogs or cats worry about perfecting themselves? Or do they just love the people who care for them, and who are good to them, and live their lives? Maybe we could learn something from them.

Well put.

If man is created in the image of God and God feels the need to condemn man for his imperfections, isn't that a form of self-hatred? Is it not pathological?

At some point we humans should refer God to a good psychotherapist and be done with it all.

Jesus can turn ordinary sugar pills into the stongest psych meds in the Universe. Here dad, take these.

I was brainwashed. I was indoctrinated from a young age not only to believe the BoM was truly written by ancient peoples but also that any doubts I had were not my own thoughts but a being working to destroy me from the outside. So, I was scared to look too deeply at anything or to question anything I was told. And Mormonism encourages a very lazy method of intellectual thought. Reading the book over and over again, numbing your mind, counts as studying it in Mormonism. Repeating prayers, repeating rituals, singing dull songs, counts as "knowing" something. If I've never been taught that examining a fact is MORE than simply accepting what your leaders say without question, and praying about it, EXPECTING the primed good feeling you get as confirmation "just to make sure", how am I supposed to recognize what due diligence actually looks like?

I was a true believer with my whole heart and it truly hurt so badly, was world destroying for me in those moments and days when my shelf broke. It was a process to research it and learn how to argue at the same time as I battled internal shame and guilt systems that were constructed to make me walk back to the church of my own volition. I had to realize that my emotions were my own and coming from my own brain chemicals. I had to realize the internal voice in my own mind articulating my thoughts into coherent words was not two spiritual beings battling it out tempting, counseling, and manipulating me for their own ends.

I am happy now and so grateful to be free. But it was difficult understanding how to leave, that I could leave, that I could believe other things about the world and construct my own values and standards. I was brainwashed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2023 07:15PM by blackcoatsdaughter.

Excellent answer; I was going to go into a whole tirade and personal history that basically said the same things.

"The church became the problem maker, just to end up explaining how only their way, powers, teachings could solve those problems". The death of young unbaptized children; we have the priesthood. The reason why you're born in the U.S.; It's because you earned it in the pre-existence; Parents, grandparents died before hearing about the "real" baptism...we have the power to baptize, marry after death. True keys and powers to perform sacred rites and steps; baptism, blessing of sick, we have the power and the most important "keys". We have prophets/apostles who speak as Christ himself to solve all issues or questions?!?! at least until the next geriatric prophet comes in and changes or rids the church of all of the past prophet's pronouncements and prophecies.

Whether or not the BoM is "true" isn't really the point. Archeological, DNA, etc. evidence have proven that it's not true. It doesn't matter to a TBM or to LDS Inc. It's actually better if there is no evidence to support that it is "true." Why? There would be no reason to pray and ask the spirit for a warm feeling to prove it's true. There would also be no way to show obedience and righteousness by believing in something that has been proven to be "true". I think LDS Inc. has a stronger grip on the members because believing the BoM is "true" is based on faith and feelings, which are easily manipulated.

I remember my TBM days when I felt oh so righteous, obedient and spiritual because I "just believed."

I think it is a lot of things at the beginning of the belief, like brainwashing to believe a certain narrative is true no matter what. At first we can't fathom that our entire culture and world view is a result of made up stories and enforcement of interpretations of them by "authority" figures.

Then willful ignorance kicks in. They have their preconceived conclusion and must cherry pick, compartmentalize or manipulate all the pesky facts that challenge it.

I don't see different reasons and backgrounds as valid reasons for contensions.

mathematicians. Most were Ph.D.s Several of them very good mormons, but I have to admit they didn't live by the rule of law like I was shocked when one of my favorites went to Deer Hunter as I had worked so hard not to go to R rated movies.

My boss admitted to me that he and some of the other guys went to strip clubs when they were on company trips, but he had stopped doing it. He was in his mid 50s at the time. He died quite a while ago. He was always in a bishopric, but never the bishop. My uncle was the bishop one of the times and my boss was a much better person than my uncle BY FAR.

These guys were just good people who did believe in the church. They didn't understand why I didn't marry my nonmember boyfriend years and years ago, and one of them called him when he found out he was getting a divorce to get us back together.

They were the best people I've ever known and some of the most intelligent I've ever met. Amazing people. If I were to want to pattern my life after anyone, it would be them, but I made my own journey. They have been caring and supportive. They and my parents knew that if anyone would leave the church for a good reason, it would be me.

You can't categorize any group of people as being the same. I never realized I didn't buy into the BofM until I was out. BUT I lived in fear of losing my family in the next life. I believed it and I lived it, unlike many of my mormon friends from my younger years, who are now good little mormons. My dad's side of the family couldn't be more shocked that I left the church. Most of them were wild and they are now active mormons.

Personal integrity is massively more important than intelligence.

Did you ever think that they are just elaborately having us on, and those of us who think that they believe it are the greater fools? I am of the opinion that that is nicer than to say my TBM friends and relatives are deluded and hypocritical.

Naah, I take it back. They are deluded and hypocritical. And incurious, to boot.

Glad you are sorry.

When "I'm sorry" is followed by "but" I don't think the person is really sorry.

exactly

Our mouths always are followed by a butt.

It really depends on your perspective and what was going on when you did read the Book of Mormon.

I read both the Book of Mormon and Bible when I was about 14 years of age. At that time I was familiar with swords, elephants, horses, chariots, etc. So when I read the Book of Mormon, it seemed to follow a familiar pattern. So as a Jr. High kid, I just shrugged it off. However, the Old Testament bothered me, it did not seem right to me, but I shrugged it off like a 14 year old kid.

I never read either book again for years after that, not even while on my mission. I just went with the flow, since I was part of the tribe.

It was the internet and being treated like crap by leaders that caused me to return back to critically looking at both the Bible and Book of Mormon. Reading them again as an adult I knew that neither book could hold up when compared to Mormon Think, CES letter, archeology, factual history, DNA, etc.

There are a lot of adults out there who have never actually read either book, or not since they were a clueless teen. And some adults just like bring part of the tribe.

In my case, and perhaps with others it is confirmation bias, in addition to our entrenched culture as BICs. The first time I was ever challenged as to the veracity of the bofm was on my mission. We tracted out an engineer, intelligent, interested (spoke English quite well) - in short a golden contact, which we challenged to baptism after we taught him the first two lessons in the hour and a half of that first meeting. Of course, we challenged him to read and pray about the bofm as well. When we arrived at our next appointment we sat down and he just looked at us in a rather puzzled manner. “I am confused,you both seem like intelligent young men, you speak Italian very well and I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation last week. What I don’t understand is how you can believe in this book. It is the silliest,most inane thing I have ever read. I could not get past the first fifty pages it was so ridiculous.” It took me days to recover from this. I had read it at least three times by this point in my life, and this conversation caused me to read it again, but because of my confirmation bias I felt what I had always felt about it being, ‘the most correct book’. It wasn’t until years later when my shelf was breaking that I read it finally with an objective mind and realized that what he had said was true. I was shocked as I read about this extremely dysfunctional family that was the cornerstone for a religion that touted beautiful, harmonious, forever families; not to mention all of the ridiculous, ‘and it came to pass’, and other repetitive phrases (almost as if JS were getting paid or graded on word count), and of course all the King James plagiarisms.

That is such a good point about the family we're first presented with in the BoM does not fit the ideal of family they're trying to sell.

When my shelf broke and I read it again, it was after I'd read Rough Stone Rolling and the biography of JS as told by his mother. So instead, it seemed obvious to me that Nephi was the Gary Stu/author self insert of JS, with both fathers of the families having the exact same dreams. It also lined up with a younger brother that idolized Nephi/JS. And it made me wonder if Hyrum or Alvin or both, behind the scenes, maybe had criticisms of Joseph Smith Sr. and his money making ventures for the family, or if during the nights, when Jr. would tell his tales to the family before the fire, if maybe they scoffed a bit. Even from accounts, it seems like Sr. favoured Jr. by having him act as a seer during the moneydigging schemes. Did the two elder bros resent Joseph? Did they see him as trying to take undue authority over them and the family at times? Anyway, it became obvious to me after that it was Bible fanfiction with JS casting himself as the righteous hero.

Before my shelf broke, I knew very little about JS's life. I had a very sanitized version of it with basic story beats. The same way we really only got a couple stories about Jesus before he started his ministry in his 30's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2023 02:56PM by blackcoatsdaughter.

We have to be honest. 1) Most "religious" people don't read the bible/or believe anything other than what's preached at them. You can leave out a lot of God's directions, Jesus' teachings, Apostles, disciples words/actions because those that are "smart" or learned know that most of the prophet books and apostle writings weren't written by them. 2) Until there's a real and truthful survey or census even the members know how many members there are. It's one of the biggest jokes that they have wards where the activity rate is so low, they can't find enough priesthood holders/members to fill the positions necessary to run the ward.--So in places like South America, people join/get baptized to never attend again; they're actually counted as members of J.W.s Evangelical, Catholic, Mormon-So we have 1 person/soul who is split 4 ways numberically as "Church Growth". In Europe, it's getting down right ironic. LDS corp claims growth of any sort while having to close branches, missions.

Now I suggest you go watch the Mormon Discussions/Mormon Expressions w/John Larsen "Why don't Mormons Leave?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMUIgzrM4WQ

We all know or have people in and around us, that are PIMO Members PIMO stands for physicaly in mentally out. It's like Thomas Jefferson a devout agnostic; loved parts of the bible, but hated the lies, myths, magic, supernatural....so he created "The Jefferson Bible" OR The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible; so let the PIMO's stay there. They could be hurt worse by losing family, friends, employment, clients, customers.... But also like J.Larsen explains (and I did look up his definitions/stats) when people (70%) are dealt with trauma, warnings of wars, volcanos, illnesses, fires, etc... They go into doing the only thing they know how. He gave examples of how many people in the Twin Towers just went back to work even after the plane hit and the warnings alarms went off. He also explained that of the 30% that do react, half (15%) do the absolutely panic thing (lock themselves in bathrooms, crawl under desks, etc... rather than exiting thedanger area. There's a book by Richard Adams called "Watership Down"; it starts out as a group of bunnies who listened to their spiritual leader and decided to go find a new place. Sweet little rabbits? They have wars, They have to fight starvation, they have to beg members of other groups that they're being fed/kept by furriers/farmers that just want to eat them and skin them; but the rabbits that live there, won't accept the reality or find the small loss to their population as necessary for the group survival. There's also the best description of what happens to animals when they get frozen by headlights, sounds. It's called "Going Tharn". I few many older members who refuse to accept facts or have had so many of their kids, grandkids leave, but they've "Gone Tharn". They just accept what's happening to them, their beliefs, their buildings, their wealth/income.

The Roman Catholic church was designed with illiteracy in mind. For much of its history, people went to church to have a priest quote and explain the Bible. Even though I was given a leather-bound Bible for my first communion, I never cracked it open, nor was I expected to. Same for my parents. The educated Catholics that I knew growing up would read other religious works, but not the Bible. At least up until that point of time, it was a part of church culture.

I'm old enough to have been drilled into my mind, emotional feelings that the Catholic Church was the great Harlot, Satanic in everything they do. Then instead of going to BYU or LDS Business School; I went to La Salle University and there were still monks in habits there and priests teaching Art appreciation. I find Catholicism wrong; but I've also discovered how much I love the people. On youtube-- No one can explain the sexual overtones of art like Sister Wendy.. or Breaking in The Habit; The Franciscan priest is young, explains his take on social issues, movies, explains why he and his brothers/fellow priests wear habits and sandals, how the church has a bad history etc... One of my favorite professors was a priest that I still keep in touch with.

But also John Hamer (he's the greatest) explains a new subject e.g. different sects of Christianity that started just a few years after Jesus' death (Gnostic, Proto-Orthodox, Johannine, The didache,) Yes he's one of the Community of Christ proponents/leaders?

I love history, especially the Egyptians, Greeks and how they were influenced by Summarian legends, Mesopotamia, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library; lost books of the Bible, etc...I love the old religions too; mostly the European and Native Americans. I've always been hooked on learning, studying, Joseph Campbell, discoveries of Tepe Gobekli, Karahan Tepe

Yes, the Catholic people can be wonderful. They are often earthy and non-judgmental. I've never told a Catholic that I've left the church without hearing something along the lines of, "I understand" in response.

There are some great comments in this thread that shed light nicely on how it is a brainwash regardless of how educated one is.

I have a masters degree and I left at the age of 39. For me, it was fear. Fear controlled me or I let it. Fear of not reaching the ultimate prize and being a disappointment to my family. Also, I thought my position was sound in the church b/c I had so many others in my family that are very intelligent with PhD's and so forth and they all believe it, who am I to question?

NOT!

There is an episode recently on Mormon Stories Podcast with Larsen where he does a great job of explaining what is cognitive dissonance and it works as a function of Fright or Flight. It made a lot of good sense to me. In short, our minds are not geared to immediately react to threats in many forms weather it be a bear encounter in the woods or someone destroying your viewpoint that you have held to so faithfully over time. Our minds need time to reconcile threatening info before making a judgment.

I am sure if someone had to read the CES letter or die immediately, then they would expose themselves to lies. Would it break their shelf, I don't know. Depends on how interested they were in processing the information from the CES letter. Make them take a test afterwards and the pass rate must be 90% or die. Maybe that would motivate one to pay attention well then recognize the lies?

All I know is that it took me a week of being completely in shock after finding out about JS polyandry to even begin studying fervently to try to understand and build my faith. Over time, about a month, it was clear to me the church was false. Tough pill to swallow. My fears still haunted me but I had smart folks like you all here at RFM who guided me with wisdom and great thinking to overcome those fearful brainwashes. So I say "I am sorry, but YES, it is easy to be educated and brainwashed".

Hey, nobody is perfect.

About others

I call it self-hypnosis. Pray every day, read the BoM every day. Always think about church and hang with other churchies. Don't read opposition material ever, don't watch adult-themed movies, don't entertain liberal sympathies.

Stay the course like a horse with blinders on a track.