For real? Is that what they're calling them? To their faces? I mean, "investigator" is very corporate sounding, but at least it doesn't attribute any emotional connections that aren't there yet. If I'm visiting the church and interested, "investigator" is what I am; I am investigating.
"Friend" sounds culty right out the gate. Especially if I'm just visiting and trying to look into things. I dunno. It hits a very false, "desperate smiles and wide eyes" note for me.
Sorry. I hear from a cousin who has a lot of contact with the elders in Phoenix that they have replaced “investigators” with “friends.” Whether it’s local or something soon to be more common in other missions, I find it the same caliber of culty I’ve come to expect — using words that for normal human beings have warm, positive connotations or human connection but you only mean them in a corporate-controlled thoughtless numbers-driven routine way.
So I looked them up. People derisively pinned the name 'Quakers' on them due to their style of worship ("'quaking' when they were overcome with spiritual energy") but instead of being offended or fighting back they took on the name and made it their own.
I wouldn't be tempted to join if I witnessed "spiritual energy" such as that as I tend to avoid overt strangeness (but stealth weirdness has beckoned me twice now - hopefully that's my lifetime limit).
I really like the quaker religion that I've researched. If I wanted to join a religion, I think it would be it. Its so different from mormonism. There are no rituals or set rules you have to follow. You don't even have to believe in the same things . They don't try to recruit people into their religion. They believe there is good (or god, light, etc) in evryone so there is no need to preach or get baptized. You can attend the meetings your entire life and not even officially join.
They get involved in social/political issues. Like back in the day, many quakers were part of the underground railroad. They are consciencious objectors in military/war. They believe in Simplicity, Peace, Integrity, Community, and Equality.
I've been to a few meetings, and they sit there like mormons on fast sundays. You can get up and say something if you feel "moved by the spirit". But it's not preachy like mormons, its like, "this morning I heard birds and it made me rememner to listen for the small things in life." And that's it.
>>>I've been to a few meetings, and they sit there like mormons on fast sundays. You can get up and say something if you feel "moved by the spirit". But it's not preachy like mormons, its like, "this morning I heard birds and it made me rememner to listen for the small things in life." And that's it.
I heard about this similarity recently and wondered if Mormons got the idea from the Quakers.
I find those kinds of meetings a turnoff and awkward. Leave it to Mormons to turn them into spiritual brag fests or group repetition enforcement.
I have heard a lot of positive things about Quakers too.
I see they are perfecting their manipulation technique.
My last conversation with a Bishop was his ordering me to bring in my check stubs, so he could calculate tithing that I owed per his decision. He also told me to bring my check book along, since I would also be writing a check once he was done.
Needless to say, my response caught him off guard. I am pretty sure I made my position clear, along with a follow-up response about two weeks later that clearly solidified my position.
However, about 6 months later I was standing in a parking lot with my wife and there he is heading towards me, almost skipping as he approaches. Then he begins by saying something to the effect that we are friends and he is my best bud, while grinning like the Cheshire cat in Alice of Wonderland.
I just stared at him, but since my wife was with me, I chose not to upset her and indulged in some mindless chit chat. Otherwise I would have reminded him in no uncertain terms, that "no" we are not friends.
So yea, that friends mindset is really freaky for those of us who live in reality.
Silence is Golden Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My last conversation with a Bishop was his > ordering me to bring in my check stubs, so he > could calculate tithing that I owed per his > decision. He also told me to bring my check book > along, since I would also be writing a check once > he was done.
Too, it shouldn't be anybody's business how much you tithe or whether or not you do so at all. The bishop is just some random guy the powers that be chose to bestow that title on at some point. Next week or next month or next year he'll just go back to being the guy who sits behind you in a pew, like he was before they named him bishop. His new calling could be bulletin board monitor (like I was "called" to be). Why should he have his nose up in your business, this random guy likely without many quals to head up the ward.
God loves a cheerful giver, so it is said. Mormon mandatory tithing and bishops crying more, more, more is not scriptural. Unless it is in the BoM - I wouldn't know as I'm the dunce who skimmed the thing and then jumped in the font. Twice. Because the [bleepety-bleep] bishop said my dress floated up out of the water (is it the dress that's getting baptized?). I should have taken that as a sign from above to cancel the whole thing before it turned into the debacle it eventually became.
I should be able to say that all I know about the BoM I learned in church. Except I didn't. Because my "calling" kept me out of the RS where, I had been assured, all would be made clear. Yeah. Not.
And. Tithing is supposed to be private. Not to mention voluntary. It seriously bugs me that one of a Mormon bishop's major duties is to rake in the dough by harassing members who can ill-afford to fork it all over.
If you are committed to Mormonism tithing is essentially compulsory as you cannot achieve all the claimed blessings without meeting its requirement. All "worthiness" within Mormonism is contingent on a "full tithe".
All of what you say is true only if there are personal boundaries, which in Mormonism there are not. Which is unhealthy in any relationship. Those people are not your friends, they are your codependents and they will turn on you eventually.
I'm not the most observant critic of the church, so it's possible that there was an announcement that I missed, back at the appropriate time, clueing in attentive church members about the prophet receiving a new revelation . . . Like this one, changing 'investigator' to 'friend'.
But I'm of the impression that that's not how it went. The lord did not disturb the calm waters of Rusty Nelson's mind with the gusting of a revelation that, he, ghawd, wanted this change to take place, that henceforth and forever, 'investigators' were to be known as 'friends', lest he, the lord smite him, Rusty...
Nope, just like with the change from D-day to P-day, it just happened; there were no announcements, no explanations, no manifestations of joy that ghawd had seen fit to reveal to his prophet that whatever the change was, it needed to take place.
It's a possibility that right now, in a Utah county rest home, an inmate is chattering on and on to an attendant that he, the inmate, was the AP who overheard a missionary snidely say that some of the new D-day rules the new MP was putting in place were taking all the Diversion out of the day and making it like just day spent preparing for the rest of the weeks work, and how it occurred to the AP that if that were the case, it should be called P-day, and he mentioned this to Mrs. MP, and she thought it a clever idea, and that night, when she and the MP were role-playing their "But I'm a Virgin!" bedroom drama, she commented on it to the MP, and he shared it later with the Area Rep, who passed it along to a GA, as part of a criticism of the MP, but the 1st Quorum of 70's member to whom he mentioned it liked it and then, boom, it got to Spencer W. Kimball and he also liked it and the word was passed back down Spencer had received a feeling from the spirit that this is the way it would be henceforth, and so "D-day" disappeared and everyone hoped that ghawd would be impressed with their piety.
At least, that's how the lowly AP thinks it happened, and it was proof how it demonstrated that ghawd works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform, thus making the poor schmuck imagine himself as a part of the sacred process.
I would bet up to a dozen eggs that this is precisely what happened in the case of 'friend' replacing 'investigator'! Yeah, I'm that confident in my theory.
And you know what supports my theory? Take a shot at using the church's website, mormon(dot)com, or victoryforsatan(dot)org, to figure out how the WoW changed from a suggestion to a commandment. Seriously, if you have a moment, see how they dolled up that pig, trying to make it the belle of the ball ... turning a morning cup of coffee into a sin that keeps you out of the temple, and hence, the CK.
Logic and order are not friends of the church.
Here's another probable silly point in the life of the church... The office of the Presiding Bishopric used to be a fairly powerful post, because the PB and his counselors handled all the church's money, leaving the prophet and the apostles to deal with the salvation and eternal life of mankind...you know, the important stuff.
But then one fine day, during a routine, and boring meeting, the PB cleared his throat when the "...any new business?" portion of the meeting arrived, and he explained that he thought it was his duty to bring to the prophet's attention just how massively RICH the church was becoming!!
Now, remember, the prophet would have been active in the governance of the church during the late 1950s, when the church was in debt! This event seared the souls of those worthy men, who'd allowed the church to reach such a depth! And now the prophet was being told the church had maybe 50 billion dollars in the petty cash drawer!
And before you knew it, the money-handling aspect of the PB was taken away from them, and they were left making sure people got their Liahona magazines every month . . .
One can easily defend the proposition that 'revelation' does not really play a prominent role in the mormon church. In fact, false prophecies and revelations far exceed what might pass for the real deal.
I'm left with the question, "Is the church REALLY true? I mean, really, really, really true?"
(thanks, I feel better now! Oh! I posted this over on reddit, cuz there I get "likes"...I never seem to get any "likes" here! Tough crowd.)
Makes sense. "Friends" in MoronicPriesthood,inc circles are disposable. You make them and they are great - then a ward boundary change and you never see them again even though they live one street over. Different ward - they are no longer worth your time.
All those great friends you shared good times with in Church activities? Once they know you are no longer active a few may try to get you to meetings and if you don't they will dump you. Most will dump you as soon as they think you are not active.
"Warmth". A lovely idea. Sadly lacking in my experience during my own Mormon interlude.
The missionaries were friendly, up to a point. The members - not so much. I had never experienced such cold brick walls in any other venue before. Of course, I took it personally - there must be something wrong with me.
Also, they never let me attend the Relief Society meetings on Sundays (I was assigned to "teach" Primary - yeah, the blithering idiot who didn't know doctrine before joining is now supposed to teach the kids) so I didn't get to meet any other members in a meaningful way or learn about Mormonism in more detail, at least at church.
I assumed that they were learning doctrine in there - that had been my experience in other churches - that sermons get preached, attendees become familiar with at least the basic beliefs of the church, people meet people - what a concept eh?
I travel a lot and occasionally visit various wards on Sunday to fill in time. Over past 4 years I have only found one place I visited warm and inviting. In many of the places I visit few of Bishoprics even talk to me. If I sit in a Sunday School class or Priesthood class I get the same reception. The warmth of the Church is gone so it seems. Even in my home ward when I attend which is not often its cold and lacking any humanity. Its who you know that get the warmth so it seems. As an aside, my wife made a comment last week. She said she noticed a lot of woman now attending in slacks and jeans and really have the dress down look. She asked me why that is happening. I really had no answer as she grew up in the church when Sunday dress was required. I looked at her and just said I guess that is what they wore to their church. She then said maybe someone should talk to them. My wife is a TBM. I go to support her. The other thing I have noticed is the relationship skills that return missionaries have become about zero after a few months home. I find it hard to related to return missionaries in my ward as their social skills have evaporated after their missions. So I assume any social skills they had on their missions were not real. Just my observations
What you're talking about is now far worse since the lockdowns... which the church seemed to enforce much more strictly than any local government. I have a number of friends (in the real sense!) who haven't returned to church since the restrictions. They're struggling to get the numbers back in some places.
I had problems with the social context of wards and members 30 some years ago. The last thing that I wanted to do was to drive to a YS ward. It was too far away and I was never into church anyways, even though I was a RM.
The young singles ward was way too quiet for my taste. And the combined PH/RS meeting lesson went by too fast- no questions were asked and no elaboration. So the bulk of the time was an impromptu testimony/cry-fest about the atonement.
Do you know that I was the bad guy who never wanted to share my testimony- which all seemed fake and over-the-top?
The leaders assigned me to bring food or eating utensils for a weekday activity even though I had a college class in the evening. Moreover, I was assigned to hometeach some 3-4 people even though I lived some 40 miles away. In true ward spirit, I was told that I would NOT be hometaught at my parent's home because I lived outside of the YS ward's boundary.
Last week I watched, for my sins, the entire broadcast of the new program to identify non-attendees and either activate them or deactivate them.
In his speech the chief drone used an interesting phrase to describe us lazy bums, aspiring sinners, and heretics. Rather than ex-Mormons, he called us members "who choose not to participate for a time."
Although I intend to continue not participating for a time, I found the clause reassuring. It means that the church likes us, it really, really likes us!
Perhaps it’s another era of scraping together bits of other religions to create a recipe of a ‘new and better’ religion, only to realise that your offering still tastes of bull poo.
Let’s call ourselves lost Jewish tribes (uh, no) Let’s call indigenous Americans a lost evil Jewish tribe (offensive) Let’s say that there are different degrees of heaven (hmmm) Let’s claim to have a way of legitimately baptising dead folk for our church membership (theoretically unnecessary for any god who could fashion a universe out of nothing, but distressing for living relatives of said, dead folk) Let’s say the masons don’t have the real rituals for communing with god (silly green aprons)
It feels like current leadership in a throwing as much Protestant and Dissenter mud against the wall hoping some will stick to finally legitimate Mormonism. What they haven’t figured out is that the foundations are rotten.