No matter which side of the current debates one is on regarding society’s norms and values, I hope people can see some of the issues on both sides, in general, and in particular regarding a Catholic school in Toronto, Canada that suspended a student for his views voiced during a class discussion.

Who gets to shut down debate? Who gets to decide which opinion is correct and that all others should be spurned? Who holds a class that’s discussing a current and crucial topic and then punishes a student for voicing their opinions? Isn’t it good to hear all sides (within reason)?

Suspending a student for a period of time and then arresting them when they return to the school – how is that a way to model appropriate behaviour and responses in a learning environment?

You cannot possibly teach students that there is only one way to think, even if we don’t agree with somebody’s choice of beliefs.

I am especially intrigued by the argument that the Catholic Church itself teaches the exact tenets that the suspended student was voicing.

Article (NB: Potentially offensive statements):

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-catholic-high-school-student-suspended-then-arrested-for-saying-there-are-only-two-genders

Excerpts:

“In the name of diversity, a Catholic school in Renfrew suspended a student and had him arrested for saying there are only two genders.

“Josh Alexander was suspended last November over comments made about gender in class and told he couldn’t return to class until he recanted.

“On Monday, Alexander returned to class and was promptly met by the vice-principal, arrested by two local police officers and charged with trespassing. The now seemingly former student of St. Joseph’s Catholic High School told the National Post in an interview that he made comments during a class discussion on gender.

“A lawyer representing Alexander said that the school won’t let him attend classes again until he agrees “not to use the ‘dead name’ of any transgender student and agreed to exclude himself from his two afternoon classes because those classes are attended by two transgender students who disapprove of Josh’s religious beliefs.”

“As for trans students disapproving of Alexander’s religious beliefs, maybe they want to reflect on the fact that they are attending a Catholic school, or at least one that calls itself a Catholic school.

“That distinct education [provided by the Catholic school in the writer’s opinion] is no longer distinct when, in the name of diversity, the person adhering to Catholic teaching is the one who is excluded.

“This young man is being denied an education for having a different view than those in power.

“What does it teach Alexander that the response to him saying there are only two genders inside a Catholic school is that he is now excluded? The school administration is turning this young man into a martyr, while also showing they long ago abandoned the Catholic beliefs they say they uphold as a school.

“What does it teach the trans students who don’t want Alexander in their class because they disagree with his religious beliefs? It teaches them that they have special powers, are more important than other students, and don’t need to learn to deal with those they disagree with.”


“No one is well served by this.” [says the writer of the article, to be clear]


Maybe the Pope needs to give that vice-principal a call.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2023 07:11PM by Nightingale.

>
> told he couldn’t return
> ... until he recanted.
>

The first thought that came to me was: That kid is Galileo!

I'm not saying the kid is correct, but it sure sounds like the same Catholic church . . .

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > told he couldn’t return
> > ... until he recanted.
> >
>
> The first thought that came to me was: That kid
> is Galileo!
>
> I'm not saying the kid is correct, but it sure
> sounds like the same Catholic church . . .

Clever, and funny, EOD.

I am blushing and twisting a toe into the linoleum...

Like the old joke goes . . .

The teacher says, "I would like you all to start thinking outside the box. Now, to help you get started, I wrote down a few guidelines and parameters."

This is what happen when the UberWoke mob starts running around waving their little red books!

nt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2023 10:37PM by Lot's Wife.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what happen when the UberWoke mob starts
> running around waving their little red books!


Wrong country, wrong century...

Josh Alexander was suspended for causing a disturbance, not for his beliefs

https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/josh-alexander-arrested-after-school-suspension-for-trans-views/

I didn't follow the entire sequence of events but it seems there were several prongs to the choices the school's admin made.

The article you posted states:

"He was hit with a suspension for allegedly organizing protests at his school against biological males in girls’ bathrooms and arguing in class that God created two unchangeable genders."

So, the suspension was for the protests but included the opinions he stated in class. That is the part I focused on in my OP. If he was causing a disturbance otherwise, then it's up to school officials to choose a fitting punishment (although it seems quite a prolonged absence from school).

The other point in your article seems to demonstrate some unfairness in the school's approach:

"Alexander was told by his principal that he was allowed to return to school only if he stopped using the “dead name,” or given name, of transgender students and excluded himself from classes with two transgender students who objected to his religious views about gender."

I agree that insisting on using a name that a fellow student doesn't use for themselves is not courteous and potentially inflammatory.

I don't agree that this student should not be allowed to attend a class because other students object to his religious views. There has to be balance and fairness, freedom of choice and free speech, within reason.

No doubt the issues are multiple and complex.


To be clear: I don't share in this student's views as described in the articles. But in a school classroom where students are encouraged to share their thoughts and opinions it seems counterproductive to make it about a religious belief and/or a PC approach.

"Protecting" some students' rights and shutting down discussion or different choices, either way, doesn't seem the best way to go.

That's not to say that a teacher's job isn't complicated and stressful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2023 10:21PM by Nightingale.

and a provocation, not religious faith.

It's no different than using the N-word or some other kind of offensive slur.

He didn't have to say anything, but was just plain being mean -- and knew it would cause trouble.


I fear the fundies won't stop until a civil war breaks out.

They want to live in the imagined past or some kind of dystopian "Republic of Gilead" nightmare of their dreams.

We've already gone back to the 1850s antebellum America and 1930s Germany with red states and blue states and different laws in different places meant to harass or destroy people's lives, families forced to flee to safe states, etc.

If the school wants to treat LGBTQIA+ students with basic fairness and decency, and he doesn't like that, that's on him, not the school.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2023 08:40PM by anybody.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and a provocation, not religious faith.

I'd never heard of a deadname before. I agree with you that that would be an offensive way to indicate his opinion/beliefs.


> If the school wants to treat LGBTQIA+ students
> with basic fairness and decency, and he doesn't
> like that, that's on him, not the school.

I agree, absolutely.

I was reacting to the account that states the class was a discussion (unless that was just his take on it and/or his defence to poor behaviour).

I do believe that if it's classified as a discussion people should be free to state their opinion, as long as their words and manner are not offensive, although their take on the topic could well be.

But especially when it's school students, there is an age component to it. Not yet fully developed brains, certainly a lack of maturity and experience. They definitely have to live and hopefully learn.

Although it's obviously highly emotional and especially in view of dealing with minors, there is hopefully some leeway in terms of some students stating uninformed or even prejudiced viewpoints. Hopefully, a discussion will actually teach them something.

The other major point is that it is a Catholic school, i.e. religious.

One of the other main points is that regarding this particular student he feels he was following the Catholic teaching on these subjects.

I don't know if he's trying to cause a ruckus and being a smart-ass or even lying. I just thought when I read the article I posted that he may have some justification for his take on what occurred in terms of being suspended (and subsequently arrested - which seems like a strict measure to be used against a young student, although perhaps the arrest occurred due to more than just him showing up at school while suspended - perhaps he was out of control in some ways or more than teachers wanted to handle).

I do not in any way support his anti-anybody views. I am not an expert in the Catholic theology on these matters but he seems to think it supports his position and indeed, that could be how he learned this, from parents or school or church meetings, who knows.

I just think that age is a definite factor and maybe he can still be reached by reason and patience before his anti- views are cemented into his little grey cells forever. I seriously hope he doesn't take pleasure in becoming a martyr due to being expelled, arrested, isolated or whatever else occurs. I hope some wise adult somewhere sits down and has a good long chat with him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2023 12:36AM by Nightingale.

You can't force me to deny someone is male because they think they are female.

Your view is not reality.

But that's not the point. The point is that no one is forcing you to say or think anything.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Josh Alexander was suspended for causing a
> disturbance, not for his beliefs
>
> https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/josh-alexander-arres
> ted-after-school-suspension-for-trans-views/

Mormons claimed the right to practice their religion with polyg; Related ???

    
  

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Josh Alexander was suspended for causing a
> disturbance, not for his beliefs
>
> https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/josh-alexander-arres
> ted-after-school-suspension-for-trans-views/

I perhaps should have used a different sub line. I think I didn't make it clear that my sub line was a quote from the article, not my own conclusion or summary of the incident.

Yes, the arrest was because he showed up at school while he was suspended, obviously not a good idea.

He was *not* arrested for his point of view, despite the headline. That would definitely be overkill.

It still sounds harsh to me, on the face of it, that a student would be suspended for voicing a different and/or unpopular point of view or one different from what is being taught. Perhaps there is some detail missing re how that came about. Maybe he was being rowdy. That isn't described in the account.

Too, his point that his view is the one that is taught by the Catholic Church is somewhat getting lost in the discussion it seems. I think it's an important aspect to the incident.

Follow the science. Look up chromosomes.

It didn't work for races, but now following the 'science' is the way to go?

Outcome-oriented science... Sure, why not!

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Follow the science. Look up chromosomes.

Biological sex & gender identity do not always match.

XX & XY that many learned in Science class isn't the whole story as it used to be taught.

It's instructive to look stuff up and be informed.

It's a biological reality, not a moral or religious opinion.

So you're the one going around town with your handheld chromosome tester and "XX" and "XY" ing everybody you interact with? No? Then you admit you don't use acknowledgment of people's chromosomes to determine how you treat and interact with them.

And getting down to the chromosome level is beyond personal, don'tya think?

I don't think even my own physician has ever gone there!

The "article" is an editorial written by a right wing buffoon.

It's not a "different opinion" to think other groups of people shouldn't have a right to exist.

I don't accept the claim those with anti-transgender views hold that they have a right to espouse and act upon views that certain groups of people don't exist and shouldn't be allowed to. It's not a conversation when you're literally telling the other side they aren't as human/valuable as you are.

Private schools can suspend or expel students for any number of reasons, some of which may seem or actually be unfair.

Biologically, there are XX and XY chromosomes.
Choosing to identify as the opposite sex does not change your chromosomes or biological facts.

It’s ironic that Rachel Dolezal identifying as black (when she’s 99.9% genetically identical to a black person) is verboten, when identifying as the opposite sex, determined by your biology, is protected in most states.

>
> Biologically, there are XX
> XX and XY chromosomes.
>


What about XXY & XYY humans?  (go ahead, look'em up!  It's not a big deal to admit you don't know everything...)

But then again, I see no real issue with you just ignoring facts; we're all used to it.

That goes for Rubicon as well.

The world outside right-wing propaganda includes more than XX and XY combinations in living people. There are XYY, XXY, YY, and several others. Assigning gender names to each of the existing configurations would require a lot more than LGTBQ+.

That's what happens if we "follow the science."

Not YY. Such a genotype would require genetic manipulation to remove an X and replace it with a Y in an XY zygote. Such a zygote would not survive as there are genes on the X chromosome that are necessary for life and a YY zygote would lack them.

A list of sex chromosome abnormalities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_anomalies

The situation is also more complex than just chromosomal genotype - see the last 2 entries on above list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

"XY gonadal dysgenesis, also known as Swyer syndrome, is a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. Though they typically have normal female external genitalia,[1] the person has functionless gonads, fibrous tissue termed "streak gonads", and if left untreated, will not experience puberty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

"XX male syndrome, also known as de la Chapelle syndrome, is a rare congenital intersex condition in which an individual with a 46, XX karyotype (otherwise associated with females) has phenotypically male characteristics that can vary among cases."

You guys are proving that science is not something faith-based societies want to deal with!  Remember, the leaders of faith (had hope) based groups have a duty to chivvy their memberships into admission to a promised land.

Faith, where is your faith!!??!!

And don't be saying you have faith in science, lest angels from on high descend and wash your filthy mouths out with soap-of-the-Savior, in leprechaun green...

Thanks for the correction on the YY combination, also for the information on the gonadal dysgenesis and XX male syndrome.

We've nailed down 1) the non XX/XY genetic variants, and 2) the additional variants caused by the body not activating the sex chromosomes normally. What still needs to be added is, like the variance between chromosomes and their physical expression, the empirically real variance between chromosomes and psychological expression.

No picture of human sexual identity can be complete without treatments of those unusual patterns.

Yes, genotype is only one factor. I limited my response to that in response to the "Biologically, there are XX and XY chromosomes" statemant.

For example, there may be CNS differences present

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7415463/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7139786/

https://www.iflscience.com/transgender-womens-brains-differ-from-cisgender-peoples-in-an-area-related-to-selfperception-46667

Yep. Human sexuality and its expression are so complex that honesty would require something more than a binary description or a binary response.

That's the point.

What about them?
There are rare exceptions to every rule, 1/1,000 in the case of xxy males.
It doesn’t change the fact that deciding to identify as the opposite sex, has zero effect on one’s biology. Biology is real, like it or not.

Wait--

First you assert that "biologically, there are XX and XY chromosomes" and that preferences and behavior do "not change your chromosomes or biological facts." So gender is binary.

Then you say "that deciding to identify as the opposite sex, has zero effect on one’s biology. Biology is real, like it or not." So XXY, YY, XYY and other variations should be treated as gender "identities."

Don't you see the contradiction? In the first case you say that biological facts cannot be overridden but in the second you assert that it is perfectly reasonable to override biology when it does not appear in binary XX vs XY form."

What exactly is your view? It can't be both.

What gives? Do you respect the biology or not?

Yes I respect Biology and science in general.
I think the truth is hidden in our genes.
Which is why I disagree that biology isn't real.
How you choose to identify, has nothing to do with your biology.
It is what it is.
Half the time it's XY.
The other half is , XX.
It happens in almost all species, not just ours, but in plants and animals.
and in 1/1,000 times it's xxy.

We're not unique, there are mutations in every species,

except that we're the only species that 'chooses' to identify as the opposite of our biology.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2023 09:12PM by schrodingerscat.

I have a nephew, who is now my niece, who came out as trans 3yrs ago. I fully support her right to identify any way she wants. But I don't pretend that her biology is any different now than it was 3yrs ago. But it doesn't matter to me. I love her the same way I loved her when she was a 'he'. WHen I found out I told her, "I hope you know how fortunate you are to have a family who loves and supports you no matter what, right?"
She said, "Oh yeah. I do!"
I'm grateful she chose life, rather than the all too often alternative, for trans people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2023 09:18PM by schrodingerscat.

While 1/1000 seems miniscule, it does equate to 7,880,000 actual living humans on the planet. That's quite a few.

>
> Biology is real, like it or not.
>


You want to limit freedom, ignore a real fact, because "...it's (only) 1/1000..."?  

What's your cut-off? 1/100, 1/10, 1/2?  

Incidentally, 1/1000 of the US population is roughly 334,500 people.  You wanna make fertilizer out of them for not toeing your line?  If they didn't toe the line, isn't that what would be in store for them?  Surely the majority would not put up with that minority's shenanigans!


A fact is presented to you, but you say it's okay to ignore that fact based on perceived percentages?  Like in a true republic, where the majority rules?  

Yeah, that's great, when you're part of the majority.  The 1/1000 should either all change, or all move away and leave the "normals" in peace...

What's the alternative to a true republic?  Oh, yeah, a democracy!  And this seems to be one of the interesting debates of the moment: Should America keep trying to be a true democracy, or will 'majorities' hijack us into a 'my way or the highway' existence?

Don't people see that most of us have at least one trait that will get us into trouble with the 'majority'?

Love thy neighbor...  I am certain, Mr. The Cat, that if we lived next door to each other, I would get along with you, and eventually, you would tolerate my existence.

I believe The Cat has placed his faith in this declaration:

> It doesn’t change the fact that
> deciding to identify as the op-
> posite sex has zero effect on
> one’s biology.  Biology is real,
> like it or not.


But to say that "biology is real" is to say nothing at all!!  The only "real" thing about biology is how endlessly complex it is!  Is there a science that melds biology and how sentience affects it?  

What is "real"?  Can it be "real" to feel the need and the desire NOT to be cataloged based on definitions in a book that you and your cronies are writing?  "Duh, if I can think it, it must be real!"

What import would you give to the statement, "...if only 1/1000 people think Einstein is important, we must throw him into the dustbin of history!"?  None, right?  Because only your definitions matter, and there are few perspectives in which that is a good thing, none of which espouse liberty, freedom...and likely justice.

...N'ah, you and your ilk are not going to change.  It's always got to be your way or the highway.  And you want freedoms you will not give to others.  

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Biologically, there are XX and XY chromosomes.
> Choosing to identify as the opposite sex does not
> change your chromosomes or biological facts.
>
> It’s ironic... identifying as
> the opposite sex, determined by your biology, is
> protected in most states.

We have to move beyond what we learned in high school science, in some cases eons ago. Lifelong learning is a beautiful thing.

Life is more complicated for some people than others.

Below is just a quick overview of some of the facts about the biology of being human. It is likely quite different than what teachers of old presented in class. It's good to live and learn, beyond the biology texts from the '60s et al.

Describing Gender Identity and Expression:

https://www.healthline.com/health/different-genders

Excerpts:

“Gender and sex do not have the same meaning. One is social, and the other is biological. Gender is a spectrum, and there are many terms to describe it. Such language is important for understanding your gender and knowing how to affirm and support others.”

“Many people use the terms “gender” and “sex” interchangeably. However, gender and sex actually refer to two separate things.

“Gender is an identity — your personal sense of who you are. The term can also refer to socially constructed categories that relate to what it means to be a man or a woman.

“Sex refers to biological and physiological characteristics. Your genitals, hormones, and chromosomes all relate to your sex.

“Although many are taught that there are only two sexes — male and female — that isn’t true. Some people are intersex or have a difference of sexual development (DSD).

“Many people grew up with a simplistic idea of gender and sex: that there are two sexes, male and female, that “match” with two genders, man and woman.

“In reality, neither gender nor sex is binary.

“The categories used for sex and gender are socially constructed.

“Your gender identity is your personal sense of self. It’s how you, as an individual, conceptualize your own gender.
“Gender expression, on the other hand, is how you express your gender identity. Many do this through clothing, behavior, gesticulations — anything people might associate with gender. Your gender expression might match what society expects of your gender, or it might subvert it.

“Having language that helps demonstrate the many ways people experience, express, or identify their gender allows us all to more clearly see and understand the entire gender spectrum — including and beyond the traditional binary gender categories of man and woman.

“Intersex is “an umbrella term that describes people who have sex characteristics — such as chromosomes, internal organs, hormones, or anatomy — that can’t be easily categorized into the binary sex framework of male or female.

“Intersex conveys information about a person’s sex characteristics but doesn’t indicate anything about their gender identity.

Sex is “the classification of a person as male, female, or intersex based on the existing system of organizing human bodies and biologies.

“This system is based on chromosomes, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, and secondary sex characteristics.

“Sex assigned at birth is “the act of assigning or designating a particular sex to a person based on their chromosomes, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, and secondary sex characteristics. This is often done by medical professionals during pregnancy or immediately after childbirth.
“The sex a person is assigned at birth doesn’t determine or indicate anything about their authentic gender experience or identity.

“It’s amazing that gender — something many people thought was a simple concept — is actually so personal, nuanced, and complex. For that reason, it’s totally OK if this list is a lot to digest!

“Just remember: Gender is an essential part of health and well-being for everyone.

“Becoming familiar with language that helps you to talk about this part of identity and society is a great way to care for yourself and be an ally to others.

-----

Care for oneself. Be an ally to others.

Not a bad life motto.

I agree. I am an ally to others. I'm an ally to my niece who was my nephew up until about 3yrs ago, when he became an adult and decided to come out as Trans. I've supported her the whole time, and always will, but I'm not going to lie to her and tell her that I think her xy chromosomes magically grew legs and became xx chromosomes.
If she wants go go through life as a woman, I support her as a person and now, a niece, because that's what she is to me, because that's how she chooses to identify, psychologically. I support her psychologically and emotionally.
Families not supporting people like her is what has led to a lot of suicides.
But I don't think pretending biology isn't real is at all helpful.
Truth, reality, doesn't depend upon your opinion.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree. I am an ally to others. I'm an ally to my
> niece who was my nephew up until about 3yrs ago,
> when he became an adult and decided to come out as
> Trans. I've supported her the whole time, and
> always will, but I'm not going to lie to her and
> tell her that I think her xy chromosomes magically
> grew legs and became xx chromosomes.
> If she wants go go through life as a woman, I
> support her as a person and now, a niece, because
> that's what she is to me, because that's how she
> chooses to identify, psychologically. I support
> her psychologically and emotionally.
> Families not supporting people like her is what
> has led to a lot of suicides.
> But I don't think pretending biology isn't real is
> at all helpful.
> Truth, reality, doesn't depend upon your opinion.

SC, you fail to understand that anatomy, biological sex, sexual identity, and sexual orientation are separate things, and exist parallel to each other and not in series.


Sexual identity -- gender -- is in the brain, not your parts.


Think for a moment. Are you going to suddenly start acting and thinking like a female if you lose your thingy? Probably not. Just because someone has XX chromosomes doesn't mean they will think or act as a male and/or vice versa. All the research done to date indicates that hormonal levels in the womb affect brain development and sexual identity. All foetuses are female and some of them will become male depending on the amount of androgen and other hormones present in utero, and it's a spectrum -- a very narrow spectrum -- but not it's not a binary either or situation as you erroneously claim.

Most of this "transphobia" stuff is directed at trans girls women and not trans boys or men. Why? Because it's fear in the minds of the fearful that drives it. Trans men are not seen as a threat to male dominance or male sexuality, but trans women are viewed as a threat. "What if I see one and she turns me on! Gasp! Oh No! Horrors!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2023 11:00PM by anybody.

. . . and so not supporting a belief someone else holds now makes one subject to arrest?


Who are the oppressors now.

Stating that he was arrested for a belief is not supported by fact.