Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 08:11AM

Remember when African American actress Dorothy Dandridge was performing in Las Vegas and struck her toe in the hotel's swimming pool? Are we going back to that nonsense?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/kings-singers-pensacola-christian-college-cec/index.html


Debates are churning after a Florida college abruptly canceled an appearance by a prominent singing group due to at least one member’s sexuality.

The King’s Singers are a highly regarded British a cappella ensemble with more than 50 years of history. The all-male group performs a range of songs, including pop music, classical arrangements and sacred music.

The group says a February 11 concert at Pensacola Christian College was canceled with “two hours’ notice” because of “‘concerns’ about the ‘lifestyle’ of members of our group.”

“It has become clear to us, from a flood of correspondence from students and members of the public, that these concerns related to the sexuality of members of our group,” a statement from the group, shared on social media, reads.

Pensacola Christian College, a private independent Baptist institution, released a statement with their reasoning.

“PCC canceled a concert with The King’s Singers upon learning that one of the artists openly maintained a lifestyle that contradicts Scripture,” the statement reads.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 08:28AM

Why do “Christians” obsess about homosexuality?

Suppose that you had grown up on deserted island (or another planet) and had never heard of Christianity, and someone handed you a Bible and asked you to read it and study it. If you came up with a list of what commandments you think would be most important to a religion based on that book, do you think that homosexuality would even be on your list?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 08:36AM

No, it wouldn't be on mine. But based on that scenario, I might come away from the reading thinking, "I need to threaten people who reject this message so that God doesn't get mad and hurt me. We all gotta be on our best behavior folks. So long as we're on the same planet, I'm in the line of fire of whatever he does to punish you."

Or, simplified,

"Me stabbing you means God is angry." XD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 08:45AM

who only comes home twice a month and lines up all the kids to give them a whipping and doesn't care if just one kid was bad, they all get a beating.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: February 20, 2023 08:27AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 12:23PM

I have been to performances of the KS's twice and can only say it is their loss. Even as a believer I cannot understand this kind of prejudice and can only assume they had no idea exactly what they had booked. The group sings everything from popular music to classics and they sing them brilliantly. Check them out singing Masterpiece on YT.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 01:56PM

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even as a believer
> I cannot understand this kind of prejudice

I'm sad to say I can, due to my unintended, and unfortunate, forays into more fundamentalist-type groups.

They may not be visibly and literally cloistered such as, for instance, the Trappists, the Sisters of the Precious Blood or the Hermits of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel, but mentally they are in a similar mindset, in my view.

Cloistered nuns are defined as sacrificing "worldly pleasures for austerity and self-denial".

Cloistered groups are defined as "religious orders whose members strictly separate themselves from the affairs of the external world".

One such group is defined this way: "For their entire lives, their time will be divided between constant prayer and the work of the convent. Most do not read novels, see movies, or play sports. They do not hug one another and keep all physical contact to a minimum. Most of them rarely, if ever, see their families."


In effect, but to a lesser degree, Jehovah's Witnesses, a group I joined when I was 16, cloister themselves from the world as one of their major principles is to "be in the world but not of the world" and that scripture is repeated ad infinitum within their ranks. Higher education is strongly discouraged. When I decided to join (through friends) I determined to go "all in" as it's not a faith you can easily choose to adopt in a lukewarm manner. Plus, they expect an all-in commitment as well. I ended up foregoing my lifelong intention to become a registered nurse because, they insisted, "we won't need nurses after Armageddon" a worldwide conflagration in their worldview, which, they constantly preach, is imminent. (Fortunately, I eventually left the JWs after which I did become an RN, a little late).

I think people should indeed live the principles they say they embrace but not because they are imposed from without. If hypocrisy isn’t one of the seven deadly sins I think it should be! But religions that impose adherence to certain principles and mete out negative consequences if people are judged to be not measuring up is a good few steps too far for me. I think it is especially ludicrous to expect outsiders to adhere to any specific group’s stated values.

A major part of the JW approach is that they must be sterling examples of their beliefs at all times, in all venues. They have this in common with other Christian-based groups, of course (and other religions) but the JWs go all-in to the max on it. This major tenet is in their very name: Jehovah’s Witnesses – meaning they must “witness” about God in all they do and say, 24/7. This ideal governs every member in their individual lives and collectively. They keep themselves so isolated (“be not of the world”) that as a group they wouldn’t host such a (“worldly”) concert but nor would they as individuals attend one. (As an aside, they won't even set one toe inside any religious building but their own). They teach that attendance by a member at a "worldly" concert would indicate that they condoned the behaviour or style or words and actions of not only the performers but of every other individual who attended. And you must always remember that you are not just an individual but in all you do, say or even think, you are representing the “only true” religion – the WatchTower Society (JWs).


In the case of this Christian college in particular, the administrators don't see their actions as prejudice but as living their principles by avoiding "even the appearance of evil". In this instance, by allowing a performance by artists who do not uphold the religious values the school stands for, administrators feel they would be seen as condoning the "lifestyle" of the performers. I completely understand that mindset. I just wonder why it had to get as far as it did – that the concert was cancelled only two hours before its scheduled start time. If Admin is so strict you’d think they’d have vetted the group well beforehand.

In terms of shaping an image by restricting influences they consider to be negative, I get that. It is completely in line with their belief system. I wonder who scheduled the concert in the first place. It seems they could have forestalled the debacle it’s turned into if they had checked things out thoroughly ahead of go time.


This may be an unpopular opinion but it shouldn’t be surprising that a Christian college, whose very identity is Christian by definition, would not embrace beliefs or behaviour or anything that doesn’t uphold their stated values. I would wish for more inclusion but from their viewpoint they have to be seen to uphold their own standards. I’m not surprised at their reaction nor the reason for it. I don’t think that they can, or should, be subject to outside values that contradict their own. As long as institutions are permitted to identify as devoted to certain ideals they should be able to uphold them as they see fit. I regret that their leaders may choose to stifle free expression but we can’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to make their own rules, within the law.


This episode is unfortunate. They should have been able to get out in front of this before it became a spectacle. Too, it amply illustrates that perhaps the students aren’t being well served by what should be an edifice of learning, not an institute of indoctrination.


I think these principles, shared by so many fundamentalists, that we must always be a good example, we cannot be seen to be embracing "evil" and we must preach 24/7 in all we do, contribute to the thinking that goes into questionable decisions like the one to cancel this concert once it had been booked and only a short time before it was due to begin, which has now caused them a big headache. It’s also not a good look, nor compassionate, that they have potentially hurt whichever group member they objected to performing at their venue.


All in all, I give the Pensacola Christian College a failing grade on this one.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2023 02:07PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 03:56PM

"For all have fallen short..." I think that includes those who made the judgement to uninvited them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 01:57PM

As bigoted as this is, we should agree with a PRIVATE org to determine their own agenda & participation, else some 'Invisible Hand' decides everything for everyone.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 05:35PM

We should agree to nothing of the kind. I suppose their action is legal, though I don't think that is crystal clear. If it is legal, we still should heap all the opprobrium we can muster on their cankered souls.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 02:08PM

It's a fake college. What were you expecting ?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 18, 2023 03:31AM

Fake? Does George Santos know? He used to go to school there.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 05:23PM

Does the college also plan on vetting any police officers, firefighters, paramedics, nurses, etc. who are called to respond to incidents on campus? Or just singers and other performers?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 05:36PM

Not to mention vetting those who mix wool with polyester.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 05:57PM

And those who eat cheeseburgers. Don't forget those evildoers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: L.A. Exmo ( )
Date: February 16, 2023 05:59PM

Or eating bacon cheeseburgers and pepperoni pizza on campus. The bible has a lot to say about pork, none of it good.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: February 20, 2023 08:30AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonynon ( )
Date: February 18, 2023 10:01PM

pensacola christian college is well known to be one of the most wackadoo extremist colleges out there. They have separate staircases for men and women, and men and women can get "demerits" for eye contact, they call it making eye babies. It's a weird place and wasn't even accredited till recently, if it is accredited now. Nothing they do surprises me, because everything they do is bizarre.

I have a friend who was raised IFB/gothardite (like the duggars). Her brother wanted to be a doctor, but the only school his parents allowed him to go to was PCC. After a couple years, he learned it wasn't accredited and wouldn't be able to apply for med school when he graduated, so he eventually started over somewhere else. He did become a doctor, a DO, despite being anti-vax and anti-medication.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 12:56AM

It is accredited (since 2013) - by this outfit

Transnational_Association_of_Christian_Colleges_and_Schools

From their wikipedia page:

"TRACS is also notable for requiring creationism and creationist science as part of its accredited curriculums.

The organization was founded in 1979. According to the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), TRACS is a "product of the ICR".[citation needed] TRACS required, through at least 2018, all accredited schools to have a statement of faith that affirms "the inerrancy and historicity of the Bible" and "the divine work of non-evolutionary creation including persons in God's image.

TRACS's first application for federal recognition in 1987 was denied, but in 1991 under President George H. W. Bush, U.S. Education Secretary Lamar Alexander "approved TRACS, despite his advisory panel's repeatedly recommending against recognition."[10] Approval came following TRACS' third rejection by the board in which Secretary Alexander "arranged for an appeal hearing," and critics of the approval said the move was about politics.[10] TRACS' approval "worried" accrediting officials who concluded that TRACS was not a qualified accreditor and the move was criticized by education officials."

"In 1995, a federal review was conducted and National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity placed TRACS on 18 months probation.[19] Critics argued that TRACS should have never had approval and the reason for the initial rejections "wasn't over doctrine, but whether they were in the process of accrediting schools which truly gave degrees in line with other similar degrees."[19] One reason for the probation was TRACS starting the accrediting process for schools that could not meet basic requirements, such as Nashville Bible College, which was granted "accreditation candidate status" when it had twelve full-time students, seven part-time students, and two part-time faculty members.[19] Improvements were made, including eliminating the "associate schools" category and changing chairmen.[20]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnational_Association_of_Christian_Colleges_and_Schools

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 04:10PM

A doctor I knew was into the Bill Gothard stuff. He invited me to a seminar once and I went. It is definitely fundamentalist but even attending the gatherings or reading the literature you don't necessarily get how extremist it is. Yes, this is the group the Duggars were brought up in.

Here's an article about it:

From ‘Chicago’ - June 2016

Re Bill Gothard (“Gothardism”):

https://www.chicagomag.com/chicago-magazine/july-2016/institute-in-basic-life-principles-hinsdale/


One of the lines from a former member that is really instructive is "you never think you're in a cult when you're in a cult". Yes, that explains a lot. Many or at least some here can likely relate to that. (If you consider Mormonism a cult). Or, I favour the term 'cult-like', although I know that's a deadly insult to them. I don't mean it that way.


The article is long - here are some more excerpts (including the teaching that blue jeans are ungodly, the "whoredom" of the female wink and the wickedness of "syncopated music". And don't forget that females should be obedient).:


“Virtually all of IBLP’s [Institute in Basic Life Principles] teachings are viewed through the prism of male superiority and female obedience. In marriage, for example, the husband is the undisputed leader of the family and his word is final. Elsewhere, women defer to men in almost every circumstance, on almost every level, including in the workplace. This belief system, the lawsuit says, “considers women to primarily exist for the purposes of producing children, caring for the men, and rearing the children. Females in the patriarchal movement are discouraged from attaining higher education of any kind and are told that their sole purpose is to marry a man within the movement.”


“Strict, sometimes draconian, moral codes find purchase in virtually all fundamentalist Christian groups. In the case of IBLP, however, some of the tenets seem downright bizarre: Cabbage Patch Kids are idolatrous, syncopated music is “the antithesis of what God desires in the life of a Christian,” blue jeans are ungodly, circumcised men are morally purer than uncircumcised men. One IBLP article suggests that failing to “render to the Lord” can lead to miscarriage. Another, titled “How Are Eyelids Used for Seductive Purposes?,” rails against the “whoredom” of the female wink: Such an act by “an attractive, but immoral woman” can be used to “communicate lustful desires and sensual entrapments.”


“IBLP’s other teachings could be straight out of Footloose. Rock music, even Christian rock, is unthinkable. Dancing, of course, is out of the question. So, too, are television, movies, romance novels, and drinking. Boys are not allowed to talk to girls in the lobby of the IBLP headquarters. Dating is forbidden. Instead, a boy and girl whose fathers believe might make a good pair must follow a highly circumscribed courting ritual, every aspect of which is monitored by their parents.”


“In Frost’s case, the most disturbing incident came one night while she was riding in a car with Gothard. At one point, the lawsuit alleges, he “suddenly leaned forward and roughly grabbed almost all of her hair close to the nape of her neck in his fist and whispered through clenched teeth, ‘I love your hair.’ ”


“Says Frost: “It was just a shock to me that, like, OK, I can’t explain this away anymore. I remember being in this turmoil, wanting to talk about this with somebody, because I totally felt like he crossed a line there. But you just do not talk against God’s anointed, you know.”


“You never think you are in a cult when you are in a cult,” Micah J. Murray, who was a student in the ATI program and later worked for IBLP in the mid-2000s, wrote on his website. “We talked about how it was a cult, joking at first. … But as I spiraled closer and closer to the center, the realization began to sink in. The jokes became real.”

-----

The jokes became real.

Yeah. Not funny though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2023 04:12PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: snagglepuss ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 12:58AM

June 29, 1968 Billboard mag about Herb Alpert cancelling his college concert on tour because his opening act couldn't perform.

The Checkmates LTD, a soul act.

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Billboard-Index/IDX/1968/Billboard%201968-06-29-OCR-Page-0012.pdf#search=%22alpert%20brigham%20young%22

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 07:32AM

This doesn’t surprise me. PCC makes BYU look like a bastion of common sense, liberalism, and academic freedom.

That place is notorious for expelling students. A bunch of them used to run a very interesting message board that spilled lots of crazy tea about PCC. I used to hang out there a lot, and I was shocked by the insane rules supposed adults were paying to live by.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonynon ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 06:46PM

That site and message board was so informative! Shocking stuff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: February 20, 2023 02:11AM

I seem to remember that I first heard about how wacko PCC is on this message board. I was genuinely sad when they took down The Student Voice, especially since PCC was so pissed that a guy they expelled managed to get the domain name for the school and wouldn't relinquish it, even after they sued him. LOL...

I also genuinely enjoyed some of the posters. Most of them weren't unlike the people who tend to hang out here. Good folks who don't like legalism. A lot of them were genuinely intelligent, too. No wonder they couldn't stick around to graduate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 04:30PM

The group is described online as "one of the most frequent collaborators with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir". Interesting.

Here's an article about the concert they gave in Ottawa right after being cancelled by PCC:

https://ottawacitizen.com/entertainment/local-arts/the-kings-singers-here-days-after-florida-show-cancelled-over-gay-lifestyles


And another (sorry if that's only available to subscribers):

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/article-the-kings-singers-croon-defiantly-and-sweetly-in-canada-following/


But the point is, they are apparently an amazing group and very popular and so they just carry on performing for people who enjoy their talent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: L.A. Exmo ( )
Date: February 19, 2023 05:13PM

Pensacola's congressional rep is one M. Gaetz, which should surprise precisely zero people.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **  ********   **     **   *******   **     ** 
 **     **  **     **   **   **   **     **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **    ** **           **  **     ** 
 **     **  ********      ***      *******   ********* 
  **   **   **           ** **           **  **     ** 
   ** **    **          **   **   **     **  **     ** 
    ***     **         **     **   *******   **     **