My father in law fought the Chinese in the Korean War. He spent most his adult life fighting the Cold War against communism. He held very high security clearances and worked on projects he still can't talk about. He's the type of guy who wears his Korean War veteran cap proudly and has a flag pole in his front yard.

So we are spending the three day weekend visiting my in-laws. They are getting up there in years. My father in law's new temple clothes arrived FedEx today. When he saw his new temple robe was Made in China he hit the roof. He is going to send it back with a letter of disappointment. He refuses to use it. He's like why is the church helping the commies?

Anyways I'm not saying anything but Beehive Clothing has sold out. I'm just a fly on the wall watching the show. Napoleon once said never get in the way of your enemy making a mistake. I don't have to bash the church, it's doing a great job of destroying itself and it's comical to watch.

Ha ha ha...business is business.

So does he return stuff made in Canada? The UK? Southern states? Mexico? Spain? Germany? Italy? Russia? Morocco?

ETA: and Japan? ETA2: and Vietnam? Cambodia? Afghanistan? Iraq? Syria? Iran? Pakistan? Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Lower Slobbovia?

Just wondering.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2023 09:57PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Because Canadians and Mexicans weren't trying to kill him back in Korea. It was a brutal war that ended with an armistice and everybody going home and forgetting the whole thing like it never happened. He should be glad his apron wasn't made by politicians.

Chinese factory workers aren't trying to kill him either. So why the animosity toward them? Canadians burned down our capital, and we eventually forgave them. We have plenty of products made in Vietnam and South Korea. Vietnamese welcome Americans into their country, which I find a little surprising. If anybody is entitled to hold a grudge, I'd put Vietnam at the top of the list.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chinese factory workers aren't trying to kill him
> either. So why the animosity toward them?

Chinese factories regularly use slave labour, that is why the product is so cheap. The country is also still ruled by a Marxist dictatorship unlike most of the other countries you mention above.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/cotton-slave-labor-uyghur-region-china

"There’s a good chance your cotton T-shirt was made with Uyghur slave labor"

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1333894/29-million-trapped-modern-day-slavery-china-30-million-worldwide
"29 million trapped in modern-day slavery in China"

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/economy/china-solar-companies-forced-labor-xinjiang.html

So we shouldn’t buy iPhones, or Android phones, or call anyone that does buy them, or pretty much any laptop computer, or any vehicle with lithium ion batteries, which, if they weren’t made in China, some of the raw materials almost certainly came from there?

Political purity is not as easy to pull off as one might think.

Apple had to back down after its workers there were being poisoned by the manufacturing process. I've never bought any Apple products.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-bans-toxic-benzene-n-hexane-from-iphone-ipad-final-assembly-1.2736214

Chinese factories also have appalling environmental records along with slavery and indentured labor.

I'm amazed how many people want to justify this. Most Chinese are still poor and work in conditions which would be illegal in the west.

You care about the environment now?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You care about the environment now?

More to the point, do you? You've demonstrated that you don't care about how humans are treated.

The west has a shocking environmental record, but at least it has some checks and balances. China is only just beginning to come round to that idea, because barely anyone there will speak out about it.

> More to the point, do you? You've demonstrated
> that you don't care about how humans are treated.

Show us, jackass, where I have said anything remotely approaching that.

You're just blowing smoke.

BoJ, Jordan's a Marxist. He believes that China outperformed the capitalist world for forty years through communism.

There's no point in arguing with someone who thinks Winston Smith is a Russian name.

The real question should be why both of you are so quick to justify a country which has one of the worst human rights records in the entire world. You both come off as sympathetic to the system.

The three main issues here are:
* What life is like for Chinese workers.
* American manufacturing going overseas.
* The relationship the west has had with China.

The only one that can be justified is the second one. But yeah, of course you can undercut other countries' production costs if you ignore safety, use slavery and/or an underpaid and scared workforce. It's not something to be proud of. In fact it's shocking TSCC and you think that's okay.

Neither BoJ nor I have defended China's conduct in any of those ways.

You just feel bad because your claim that China is "Marxist" has been exposed as the childish nonsense it is.

> The country is
> also still ruled by a Marxist dictatorship unlike
> most of the other countries you mention above.

Ah yes, the little boy still afraid that his nightlight will go out before he can get Trotsky's ghost out from under his bed.

Think about the idiocy of your Marxism fetish in this context. You would have us believe that the greatest economic expansion in world history--40 years in the offing, hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty--was achieved by ideologues pursuing an economic model that has ruined every other country in which it has been employed.

The truth is that China achieved its economic miracle by abandoning any Marxist pretense in 1978 and has since been following capitalist market principles. Your failure to recognize that leaves you incapable of perceiving the nature of the Chinese threat. What makes the Chinese system so dangerous to itself as well as the world is that Beijing has figured out that capitalism is a far better way to strengthen a tyranny than Marxism ever was or ever could be.

Thank God that people with actual geopolitical responsibility are not stuck, with you, in Skousenland. They'll have to attain stupidity on their own and without recourse to the delusions of the 1950s.

Perhaps you should explain that in person to the Uighurs and Tibetans, or all the people who've fled Hong Kong.

All companies in the PRC are legally state-owned, and the state is run by the National People's Congress which is in turn run by the Chinese Communist Party, the only party in town. They do not have a free market. They have a financial credit system based on how loyal you are to the party. Even their churches all answer to the CCP which is why Mormon units don't exist there officially yet.

Let's disregard all the nonsense in those two paragraphs and see if your basic logic makes sense. Here are the facts.

1) In 1978 China's GDP totaled $149.54 billion. It is now about $18 trillion

2) In 1978 China's per capital GDP was $156 per year. It is now nearly $13,000.

Do you really think China did that through communism? Because that's what you want us to believe.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's disregard all the nonsense in those two
> paragraphs and see if your basic logic makes
> sense. Here are the facts.
>
> 1) In 1978 China's GDP totaled $149.54 billion.
> It is now about $18 trillion
>
> 2) In 1978 China's per capital GDP was $156 per
> year. It is now nearly $13,000.
>
> Do you really think China did that through
> communism? Because that's what you want us to
> believe.

Qatar is also a rich country, but it is also a country which managed to kill hundreds (possibly thousands) of people building stadiums for the recent soccer world cup. Qatar is run by a Muslim monarchy – not Marxists – but same rules apply... no elections and few human rights... wealth doesn't mean freedom.

The wealth in China is a) regional and b) in the hands of a few corrupt party members whose social credit was good. If you obey the party your credit line will go up. China is still a country which uses slavery.

> Qatar is also a rich country, but it is also a
> country which managed to kill hundreds (possibly
> thousands) of people building stadiums for the
> recent soccer world cup. Qatar is run by a Muslim
> monarchy – not Marxists – but same rules
> apply... no elections and few human rights...
> wealth doesn't mean freedom.

Qatar is irrelevant to whether China is Marxist.


-------------------
> The wealth in China is a) regional and b) in the
> hands of a few corrupt party members whose social
> credit was good.

Prove it. With evidence.


------------------
> If you obey the party your credit
> line will go up.

Prove it. With evidence.


------------------
You are still left to explain how Marxism massively outperformed capitalism at generating wealth over many decades.

Explain to me, a naive anti-communist, how that happened.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's disregard all the nonsense in those two
> paragraphs

Can you explain how persecutions in Uighurstan, Tibet and Hong Kong are "nonsense"? They're well documented.

Slavery is not nonsense. There is a high chance slaves are being used to make temple garments now in China. Many of those slaves come from minority ethnic groups and political activists. They already make some other products there including clothing and even stationery. That is the kind of thing we SHOULD be discussing on here.

> Can you explain how persecutions in Uighurstan,
> Tibet and Hong Kong are "nonsense"? They're well
> documented.

The nonsense is your suggestion that that persecution stems from Marxism as opposed to normal dictatorial brutality.


----------------------
> Slavery is not nonsense. There is a high chance
> slaves are being used to make temple garments now
> in China. Many of those slaves come from minority
> ethnic groups and political activists. They
> already make some other products there including
> clothing and even stationery.

All true. But none of that proves that China is Marxist, which is the proposition you purport to be proving.

You're wriggling now, like a worm on a fish hook.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2023 05:12PM by Lot's Wife.

The only wriggling is your comtinuing apologetics for a regime which makes the lives of a billion people hell.

The OP is complaining about clothing being made in a dictatorship. We should never call it anything else.

>The nonsense is your suggestion that that persecution stems from Marxism as opposed to normal dictatorial brutality.

Half from Marxism and half from old school colonialism. You're right on one level, it doesn't matter what rules it, it is still evil.

You also don't get to say to anyone here what is "irrelevant". The majority of Chinese still live in poverty. The peasants in remote areas still live in hovels and drink dirty water. The city dwellers breathe in air so polluted it is slowly killing many of them. A handful of people get to take the money and use it to buy up London and New York. Instead you haul out figures from Xinhua (or wherever) telling us how rich they are. The Chinese economy is in massive trouble just now because of Covid and corruption and there have been massive riots there. If human beings are not your thing, then look at the pollution. Most people who live there are scared to speak out about pollution, because they fear what will happen to them.

I don't need to prove slavery and human rights abuses in China. They are as well documented as they can be. It is up to you disprove them not for me to disprove them.

Slava Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only wriggling is your comtinuing apologetics
> for a regime which makes the lives of a billion
> people hell.

Show me where I "apologized" for anything China has done or is doing.


----------------
> The OP is complaining about clothing being made in
> a dictatorship. We should never call it anything
> else.

Show me where I said China is not a dictatorship.


-------------
> Half from Marxism and half from old school
> colonialism. You're right on one level, it doesn't
> matter what rules it, it is still evil.

You asserted that China is Marxist. It is not. It is up to you to explain how China managed to achieve its unprecedented economic performance through Marxism.

You have not attempted such an explanation.


-----------------
> You also don't get to say to anyone here what is
> "irrelevant".

I am as free to denounce something as irrelevant as you are to post irrelevancies in the first place.


---------------
> Instead you haul out figures from Xinhua (or
> wherever) telling us how rich they are.

Sorry to disappoint you, but my figures are from the State Department and the CIA's World Factbook.

You have not provided any evidence that my data are wrong.


---------------
> The
> Chinese economy is in massive trouble just now
> because of Covid and corruption and there have
> been massive riots there. If human beings are not
> your thing, then look at the pollution. Most
> people who live there are scared to speak out
> about pollution, because they fear what will
> happen to them.

All true. And none of that is dependent on your patently false claim that China is Marxist.


---------------
> I don't need to prove slavery and human rights
> abuses in China. They are as well documented as
> they can be.

Show me where I denied any of that.


--------------
> It is up to you disprove them not for
> me to disprove them.

Good try.

What I said was that China is not Marxist. I have demonstrated with empirical facts that the Chinese dictatorship has used capitalism to enrich and empower itself. You have offered no evidence to the contrary.

If you thought you could defend your position you would have endeavored to do so. Instead, you want me to defend statements I never made.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2023 02:52AM by Lot's Wife.

> Instead, you want me to defend
> statements I never made.


You've never said how you feel about me, but it's okay: you don't have to defend the statements you've never made.

I have fond memories of our shared lunch these many years ago. In fact, I would recommend that any RfM poster who finds him- or herself in North Disneyland should contact you in the expectation of a free meal.

I won't go into any detail as to the delightful repast that awaits such a fortunate RfMer other than to say that you told me I should feel free to supersize it!

That was gonna be my question....and in my naivete I thought all cult garments were made in SLC by Dessert (sic) Industries?

My work shirts were made in vietnam. I still wear them.

Surprised it is not made in Costa Rica or Nicaragua like everything sold at walmart

But they are not made by people with temple recommends. That used to be a requirement. Now the patterns are hardly secret any more. Or am I mistaken?

Also, it means that production costs are way cheaper since they don't have to pay American-level wages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2023 04:11AM by slskipper.

How do workers in a Chinese sweat shop have temple recommends? The Chinese Communist Party only allows religion if they run it. So unless Russ turned the keys over to the Chinese Communist Party those Chinese workers don’t have a temple recommend.

They don't have temple recommends. That's my whole point. See my post below. The clothing used to be made in Salt Lake City (maybe WVC, I'm not sure) by Beehive Clothing Mills. And at that time the workers had to be at least temple worthy. That was then, this is now.

But you have to understand the church is on a tight budget.

The LDS can't do missionary work in the PRC apart from Hong Kong (if that counts). Elsewhere it exists unofficially.

I don't remember where church garments were made, but I sincerely doubt they ever had a tag that was marked- Made in Topeka KS. I think they have been made overseas since the 1990's and the tag deliberately omitted the location of assembly.

The tags cannot be "deliberately omitted". The shipment doesn't get through customs unless the tags are there. They check.

Here is a paid work opportunity to be in the temple.

5.0
“Enjoyable place to work with great people
Laundry Worker (Former Employee) - Saint George, UT - August 24, 2013
I would go at 1:30 am and wash clothes, put them in the dryer and then fold and put away when dried. The hardest part of the job was getting up at 1:00 in the morning and working every Friday and Saturday night. The most enjoyable part was getting to visit with people who quickly became good friends.
Pros
Enjoyable environment
Cons
Early am hours and working weekend nights”

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Lds-Temple/reviews?fcountry=ALL&fjobtitle=Laundry+Attendant

You can comfort your father in law some jobs are in the USA and the church pays for it.

1:00 a.m. wake-up call, and work every weekend night? I'm betting that the church did not pay a night/weekend differential. I'm also betting that this was a minimum wage job. Why on Earth can't the temples have more robes to rent out, and let their workers come in during normal daytime hours?

I am doing a guessing game here. Maybe the electricity is cheaper during the nigh? The lds church is all about saving money. I could not find how much the pay for doing the laundry is again I am guessing that it will be on the low end of pay.

You know how much water all that temple laundry wastes? In a place like St. George you don’t want to be wasting water.

Just so we're clear: the temple stuff used to be made in Utah, by Beehive Clothing, and you had to be temple worthy to do it.

https://epej.fa.us2.oraclecloud.com/hcmUI/CandidateExperience/en/sites/CX_1001/requisitions/preview/352324/?lastSelectedFacet=CATEGORIES&selectedCategoriesFacet=300000070592783

$18 per hour

“Only members of the Church who are worthy of a temple recommend qualify for employment. Apart from this, the Church is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate in its employment decisions on any basis that would violate U.S. or local law.”

I don't wear magic underwear anymore, but I am appalled that the church removed the temple recommend requirement. Didn’t the church give a reason? Labor shortage in Utah? Not enough recommend holders?

This tells me that church leaders do not regard their garments as holy relics. It's one more indication that they have no idea what they are doing. How can I sustain idiots?

What if you shoplift garments WITHOUT A RECOMMEND !!!

I know which kind you would steal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/t71foc/recently_learned_that_early_mormon_garments_used/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=3&utm_content=share_button

"You will work in a wholesome environment with other temple worthy coworkers. You will participate in team prayers and plant devotionals."

You will!

It is the "Lengthening Our Loot" committee.

They come up with ideas for saving money---- be they good or bad,

honest or dishonest. The church has to meet certain labor laws in

order to have women sew at Beehive Clothing. The church doesn't

like Labor laws and that is why they use "volunteers" for

everything they can. They can pay people in China pennies per

hour verses minimum wage for Mormon seamstress"

> They can pay people in China
> pennies per hour verses minimum wage for Mormon seamstress"

Yep. It's that simple.

Or sewing is beneath Mormon elites.

Why should I be surprised that the church is a sham from top to bottom?

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why should I be surprised that the church is a
> sham from top to bottom?

Literally, in this case.

Yes, it's that simple, we are a capitalistic country whether we like it or not. Simple manufacturing is never coming back to the US, it's not profitable. Instead, the US exports planes, computers, software, electronics and of course weapons. High end manufacturing like medical devices and aerospace parts are still be manufactured in the US but the process has become highly automated. Google "lights out manufacturing".

Yes, China is manufacturing a lot of "stuff" for the world. Remember, it started with Japan>Maylaysia>Mexico>China (I probably missed a country). IMHO, the next major manufacturing area will be in Africa.

Moe, that is conceptually spot on although I'd add some detail.

First, the pattern of shifting competitive advantage in manufacturing is more like this:

Britain=>Germany=>United States=>Japan=>China=>Malaysia,Vietnam=>Mexico=>onward

The point is that the United States was at one point the beneficiary of the cheap-labor=>greater-trade-gains pattern that has subsequently advantaged other countries. It's the normal pattern of economic development. Consumers in advanced economies should bear in mind that they too gained a huge advantage from a process that now looks invidious.

I would add that Africa is still further down the road than you suggest. India will come first, so too other countries in South and Southeast Asia because Africa lacks infrastructure and education and sufficient rule of law. My guess is that parts of Latin America will be ahead of Africa too.

My final suggestion is that the greatest strengths of countries that "age out" of the manufacturing sweet spot is in services. Financial services, insurance, intellectual property, information services, accounting, law, etc., play a huge role in post-manufacturing economics. In those fields labor is not a "commodity," meaning easily replaced and easily outsourced, and hence can support higher salaries for workers.

Didn’t the lds church used to have garments the were crothless?

    
  

I cross posted over there and it picked up lots of traction and heaps of comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1169lqe/father_in_law_aint_happy_his_new_temple_robe_is/

Nothing new here. Church out basing agents are little different from any business in that they always look for a cheaper option no matter where it us located,

meanwhile, some politicians are squaring up to either ignore or be complicit with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, shifting their ire to China and/or North Korea as the U.S. bad guys / enemies…

If it wasn’t so I wouldn’t write it, Honest.

I'm kind of embarrassed that my late wife used the church's bottom garment even though she stopped attending and believing for 20+ years.

And yes she has not had an active/current temple recommend since the 1990s. She ordered a set as recently as 2018 or 2019. I discovered that there is no tag sewn into the seam, but I was able to read the imprint (starting to fade) on the garment. It does indeed state that it was made in the USA.

How did she order garments?

She wrote down her membership record #. I think she ordered online. They didn't get prissy about her current temple recommend or her stake/ward/branch name or number. They sent a package to our physical address, so the church knows where we live.

Last week there as an article that said the multi billion dollar program for battery recharging stations was authorized by the White House.

The POTUS had waived the "Buy American" requirements for the parts for the program.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-admin-bragged-about-building-made-in-america-ev-charging-network-then-waived-buy-america-rules/ar-AA17D82R



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2023 07:25PM by tumwater.