Date: April 20, 2023 06:14AM
> Germany went Nazi, not Fascist. Hitler was
> influenced by Mussolini but it is arguable if he
> was a Fascist.
Wait--you just said Germany wasn't fascist but then added that Hitler may have been. You can't have it both ways. Either the man and his party were fascist or they were not,
> Dolfuss' Austria was closer to being Fascist than
> Hitler's Germany.
Prove it, with evidence, and make it fit an accepted definition.
> Hitler got into power by winning an election.
False. Hitler was given the position of chancellor by von Papen and Hindenburg, who thought they could control him. The first election Hitler won was months later, after he had been given the power of the state and used it to intimidate and silence the opposition.
Why don't you know that?
> Many far right dictators have been lackluster
> characters, e.g. Tojo.
There it is again. Above you claim that Hitler was not a fascist and the phenomenon is just Italian. Yet here you state that Tojo was a fascist, which is only possible if you use the definition that you just rejected.
> Mussolini in his early days had a Jewish
> secretary. Italian Fascism was not anti-Semitic in
> its early days, and introduced anti-Jewish
> legislation years later after allying with
Perhaps you should reread the post to which you are replying. If you bothered to do so, you would note that I said that "It is never 100%. No political movement or ideology fits a single model."
It is only you who insist on 100% fidelity to a general definition--except when you insist that no general model should be used at all.
> The term "Fascist" is overused.
Yes it is. That's why I offered the standard definition and explained how well it fits a few phenomena. Remember as well that the great critic of that term's overuse, Godwin, says the term applies very well to Trump.
> It is very
> arguable if most far right movements are Fascist
> at all, or whether it should just refer to the
> Italian movement.
I never said "most far right movements are Fascist [sic]." No one in this thread but you has said "most far right movements are Fascist [sic]." As for the usage being limited to Italy, do yourself a favor: look up the definition of the word as used now. Be my guest, use the OED, Cambridge, whatever you want.
> Mussolini gave an overlooked definition of
> Fascism, i.e. that it was the merger of the state
> and corporate interests. According to that
> definition, when large corporations back the state
> and vice versa, you will have a form of Fascism.
Show us that definition. I don't think you can because I don't think Mussolini ever offered it. And in any case he was focusing on Italy and not on the right-wing phenomenon that was manifesting in many different countries at the same time.
> I am not a fan of Trump, but I don't consider him
> Fascist in any classical sense.
Don't really care. You're not a clear thinker and your views on Trump are no better than your comprehension of Orwell.
Moreover, here again you are speaking of a general category of political phenomenon that you have repeatedly said is illegitimate. You want to have it both ways: "Fascism [sic]" is limited to Italy and can't be treated as a model and yet "Fascism" is a general model that Hitler, Tojo, and Trump don't fit.
It's remarkable that you don't recognize your own incoherence.
> Plus he has
> married women of Jewish heritage and has a Jewish
> daughter and son-in-law.
So what? The general model of fascism doesn't say that the leader must be anti-semitic, only that the movement must scapegoat some minority. Many of Trump's followers are anti-semitic; and he himself is anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-African, and anti-African-American, as shown by his false accusations against the five boys who were wrongfully imprisoned for the Central Park beating.
That is more than adequate to show the racism and the scapegoating that the standard definition of fascism demands.
> He also moved the US
> embassy in Israel to Jerusalem in a move to appeal
> to Zionists.
Yes, yes. And Hitler considered sending all the German Jews to Israel. Eichmann went to Israel to discuss that eventuality. Does that make Hitler pro-Jewish?
> His followers may include
> anti-Semites, but I don't see much evidence of
> Trump being a Fascist.
What you think you see is irrelevant.
And by the way, the word is "Fascist" when referring to the Italian party and "fascist" when discussing the general phenomenon that you insist shouldn't be used except when you use it--again and again and again.
As usual, you're all over the map.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2023 06:20AM by Lot's Wife.