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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 09:01AM

how long would it be before the fascists shut it down? Just asking for a friend.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 09:03AM

There are plenty of non-religious private schools. My neice and nephew attended a very fine non-religious private school, and my sister-in-law taught there.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 01:44PM

My granddaughter goes to one. Keeps a lot though not all of mormons away from her!

Very good curriculum, small classes.

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 04:19PM

My daughter was on a board of directors that started a non-religious charter school in NC. Only problem was when board wanted to teach Chinese that was a show stopper. Had to change to Spanish.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 05:26PM

...upon which U.S. state you are living in. Keep in mind that, for the most part, education is left up for the states to handle.

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Posted by: shortbobgirl ( )
Date: April 15, 2023 09:27PM

The Blake School in Minneapolis opened in 1900 and is still going strong.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 01:03AM

I wish I could have sent my kids to a Waldorf school

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Posted by: fischfrei ( )
Date: April 17, 2023 09:33AM

Waldorf schools have a religious bent following the teachings and principals of Rudolph Steiner. Country Day Schools are secular, as are many others throughout the U.S.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 02:23AM

Ha! Ha! I haven’t heard talk like that since I was in the old Soviet Union. They were always blaming things on the fascists. Now I’m hearing it in the US.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 06:27PM

Maybe that's because fascists are actually doing scary things here now. If you doubt it, look no further than Florida for one obvious example.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: April 17, 2023 10:03AM


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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 17, 2023 01:30PM

Fascism is when government and privately owned corporations collude and become dictorial. That’s what fascism is. Is there fascism in America? Yes. Is it what you people claim it is? No.

There’s all these people pointing and yelling fascism! They don’t even know what it is.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 12:27AM

God, there it is again: the insistence on a sweeping generalization instead of actual facts.

Fascism is a philosophy or movement with

1) A dictator, usually charismatic,

2) A centralized government,

3) Regimentation of society and the economy,

3) Strong dictatorial management of the economy with or without the willing cooperation of private businesses,

4) The exaltation of a race or ethnicity above all others,

5) The selection of one or more minorities as scapegoats,

6) The use of violence to achieve political ends.

You do not understand fascism and hence cannot tell anyone what it is or isn't. That remains the case even if you declare your misunderstanding with sound and fury.

It still signifies nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2023 12:28AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 06:18AM

The complete disrespect of our most recent presidential election results, the January 6th uprising, and Trump's support and encouragement of same are all examples of the rise of fascism in our country. Fascism is "my way or the highway," especially without respect to the rule of law.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 07:02AM

Also, Charlottesville and "Jews will not replace us!" And Stephen Miller ranting about "cosmopolitans," which is right-wing code for Jews.

And Africa's "shitty countries."

There you have the violence, the racism, the scapegoating of minorities.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 12:50PM

>Fascism is when government and privately owned corporations collude and become dictorial. That’s what fascism is. Is there fascism in America? Yes. Is it what you people claim it is? No.
>There’s all these people pointing and yelling fascism! They don’t even know what it is.

It's not like a light switch, Rubicon. The movement toward fascism includes a lot more than just corporations getting in line. We are seeing the steps (racism is a big example) that are clearly fascist. You personally many not admit it until corporations are fully in collusion but I see the roadmap clearly in place. The earlier we "yell" it, the better.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 03:08AM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how long would it be before the fascists shut it
> down? Just asking for a friend.

I have no idea where, geographically, you are, but where I live (California) there are probably several hundred or more "non-religious private schoo[s]."

Many (possibly most) of these "non-religious private schools" have relationships (some formal; some informal) with the top colleges and universities in the USA, which means that the students at those schools (assuming the students meet the important requirements of that institution, of course) often have a valuable admissions advantage when it comes to the student and/or his/her parent(s), deciding whether a given student chooses UCLA, or CalTech, or Stanford, or MIT, or wherever.

Which means: I don't understand the problem you pose, and I don't understand what you term "fascists" have to do with any of this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2023 03:10AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 05:18PM

Not sure. Of course, I don't like the idea of private schools. What, public schools not good enough? We could solve that problem by funding public education more, but nooo!

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 12:09AM

....but it was just too far from Logan UT. I was willing to live in a trailer in order to afford tuition but alas, it didn't happen. Two kids did get into Edith Bowen Lab School at USU. I think it was the next best option I had.

https://waterfordschool.org

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 06:28AM

People of means want their kids to have small class sizes in a protected environment. In some cases, they want a particular educational philosophy.

I have taught in the public schools for my entire career. I have always said that you have to judge each school, public, public charter, religious, or private, on its own merits. There are good and bad schools in each category.

Working in urban Title 1 schools, I have been hit, kicked, punched, tripped, sworn at daily, and have broken up numerous fights in my younger days. I have had children willfully destroy learning materials that I have provided out of my own pocket. I have seen students horribly vandalize school property. In one case they started a flood that took out every classroom on the ground floor of my school. I lost many files and learning materials that I had for years from that flood.

More money helps to an extent. It can provide the teachers and materials that suburban parents take for granted. For instance, next year my school will get a librarian and a music teacher, positions that we have done without for decades. We also have hired a number of reading and math tutors that are badly needed.

But money cannot solve every problem. It cannot provide proper parenting for each child, which is our major problem. I understand why parents choose to explore their options, including the private schools.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 04:11PM

Agree. I went to public school in southeast Idaho growing up. I lived near the Site, a nuclear research facility near Idaho Falls, Idaho*. One of the perks of living near a government think tank is the public schools get funded.

It just irritates me when people see public schools as less than. Especially when a public school graduate speaks with an Idaho drawl in real life. But I went to one of the better funded schools in Idaho.

Money can't solve all the problems with education in the US, but it would be a start. Being born into a poor family shouldn't condemn someone to subpar education.


*The Site, aka the Idaho National Laboratory is best known as where the reactor for the U.S.S. Nautilus was built (yes, it was named after the submarine from "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea"). It was also home to writer Wilson Rawls, author of "Summer of the Monkeys" and "Where The Red Fern Grows." Summer, please tell me you had students who read these books!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 04:40PM

> Money can't solve all the problems with education
> in the US, but it would be a start. Being born
> into a poor family shouldn't condemn someone to
> subpar education.

Amen

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 01:00PM

Who exactly are "the fascists" of which you speak?

Just asking for a friend.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 02:04PM

Hint 1: Look at the signs they carry and their salutes.
Hint 2: The people who complain about anti fascists (aka antifa) are by default pro fascists.

That's all I'd better say since it is derailing the thread in bad ways. I agree it is not always 100% and we see the signs we want to see.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 19, 2023 03:47PM

It is never 100%. No political movement or ideology fits a single model. Fascist Germany was different to fascist Italy, which was different to Franco's Spain, which in turn differed from Peronistic Argentina.

But I would add to your hints:

3) Using force for political ends,
4) Attempting to overthrow a legitimate government,
5) A charismatic dictator, or aspiring charismatic dictator,
6) The demonization of Jews and immigrants.

In short, what we have recently undergone meets most and almost all of the criteria, and the remaining gap would have been filled if the coup had succeeded.

You'll recall the man who first noted how meaningless the term "Fascist" had become. In 1990 he said that the first person to use the term lost the argument because he evidently lacked thought backing it up.

But Godwin has subsequently stated that he thought Trump could rightfully be described as "fascist," particularly considering the racist scapegoating of Jews and immigrants.

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Posted by: Non Mouse ( )
Date: April 20, 2023 04:51AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is never 100%. No political movement or
> ideology fits a single model. Fascist Germany was
> different to fascist Italy, which

Germany went Nazi, not Fascist. Hitler was influenced by Mussolini but it is arguable if he was a Fascist.

Dolfuss' Austria was closer to being Fascist than Hitler's Germany.

> 3) Using force for political ends,
> 4) Attempting to overthrow a legitimate
> government,

Hitler got into power by winning an election. Mussolini was helped into power by the Italian upper class, and supported by the King in his early days.

> 5) A charismatic dictator, or aspiring charismatic
> dictator,

Many far right dictators have been lackluster characters, e.g. Tojo.

> 6) The demonization of Jews and immigrants.

Mussolini in his early days had a Jewish secretary. Italian Fascism was not anti-Semitic in its early days, and introduced anti-Jewish legislation years later after allying with Hitler.

> You'll recall the man who first noted how
> meaningless the term "Fascist" had become. In
> 1990 he said that the first person to use the term
> lost the argument because he evidently lacked
> thought backing it up.

The term "Fascist" is overused. It is very arguable if most far right movements are Fascist at all, or whether it should just refer to the Italian movement.

Mussolini gave an overlooked definition of Fascism, i.e. that it was the merger of the state and corporate interests. According to that definition, when large corporations back the state and vice versa, you will have a form of Fascism.

> But Godwin has subsequently stated that he thought
> Trump could rightfully be described as "fascist,"
> particularly considering the racist scapegoating
> of Jews and immigrants.

I am not a fan of Trump, but I don't consider him Fascist in any classical sense. Plus he has married women of Jewish heritage and has a Jewish daughter and son-in-law. He also moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem in a move to appeal to Zionists. His followers may include anti-Semites, but I don't see much evidence of Trump being a Fascist.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 20, 2023 06:14AM

> Germany went Nazi, not Fascist. Hitler was
> influenced by Mussolini but it is arguable if he
> was a Fascist.

Wait--you just said Germany wasn't fascist but then added that Hitler may have been. You can't have it both ways. Either the man and his party were fascist or they were not,


------------
> Dolfuss' Austria was closer to being Fascist than
> Hitler's Germany.

Prove it, with evidence, and make it fit an accepted definition.


-------------
> Hitler got into power by winning an election.

False. Hitler was given the position of chancellor by von Papen and Hindenburg, who thought they could control him. The first election Hitler won was months later, after he had been given the power of the state and used it to intimidate and silence the opposition.

Why don't you know that?


---------------
> Many far right dictators have been lackluster
> characters, e.g. Tojo.

There it is again. Above you claim that Hitler was not a fascist and the phenomenon is just Italian. Yet here you state that Tojo was a fascist, which is only possible if you use the definition that you just rejected.


----------------
> Mussolini in his early days had a Jewish
> secretary. Italian Fascism was not anti-Semitic in
> its early days, and introduced anti-Jewish
> legislation years later after allying with
> Hitler.

Perhaps you should reread the post to which you are replying. If you bothered to do so, you would note that I said that "It is never 100%. No political movement or ideology fits a single model."

It is only you who insist on 100% fidelity to a general definition--except when you insist that no general model should be used at all.


------------
> The term "Fascist" is overused.

Yes it is. That's why I offered the standard definition and explained how well it fits a few phenomena. Remember as well that the great critic of that term's overuse, Godwin, says the term applies very well to Trump.


--------------
> It is very
> arguable if most far right movements are Fascist
> at all, or whether it should just refer to the
> Italian movement.

I never said "most far right movements are Fascist [sic]." No one in this thread but you has said "most far right movements are Fascist [sic]." As for the usage being limited to Italy, do yourself a favor: look up the definition of the word as used now. Be my guest, use the OED, Cambridge, whatever you want.


--------------
> Mussolini gave an overlooked definition of
> Fascism, i.e. that it was the merger of the state
> and corporate interests. According to that
> definition, when large corporations back the state
> and vice versa, you will have a form of Fascism.

Show us that definition. I don't think you can because I don't think Mussolini ever offered it. And in any case he was focusing on Italy and not on the right-wing phenomenon that was manifesting in many different countries at the same time.


--------------------
> I am not a fan of Trump, but I don't consider him
> Fascist in any classical sense.

Don't really care. You're not a clear thinker and your views on Trump are no better than your comprehension of Orwell.

Moreover, here again you are speaking of a general category of political phenomenon that you have repeatedly said is illegitimate. You want to have it both ways: "Fascism [sic]" is limited to Italy and can't be treated as a model and yet "Fascism" is a general model that Hitler, Tojo, and Trump don't fit.

It's remarkable that you don't recognize your own incoherence.


-----------------
> Plus he has
> married women of Jewish heritage and has a Jewish
> daughter and son-in-law.

So what? The general model of fascism doesn't say that the leader must be anti-semitic, only that the movement must scapegoat some minority. Many of Trump's followers are anti-semitic; and he himself is anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-African, and anti-African-American, as shown by his false accusations against the five boys who were wrongfully imprisoned for the Central Park beating.

That is more than adequate to show the racism and the scapegoating that the standard definition of fascism demands.


--------------
> He also moved the US
> embassy in Israel to Jerusalem in a move to appeal
> to Zionists.

Yes, yes. And Hitler considered sending all the German Jews to Israel. Eichmann went to Israel to discuss that eventuality. Does that make Hitler pro-Jewish?


------------
> His followers may include
> anti-Semites, but I don't see much evidence of
> Trump being a Fascist.

What you think you see is irrelevant.

And by the way, the word is "Fascist" when referring to the Italian party and "fascist" when discussing the general phenomenon that you insist shouldn't be used except when you use it--again and again and again.

As usual, you're all over the map.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2023 06:20AM by Lot's Wife.

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