If you were to choose an event that caused the greatest strife among members within the last 25 years, which one would you choose?

GBH and his TV interviews
Jesus failing to come in Y2K
Church pushing the 2000 SLC winter olympics
9/11 attacks and no warnings from the FP
Iraq War
Prop 8 in CA
Rom running for Presidency
Monson becoming prophet and not doing much else
Caffeinated cold drinks are ok according to diet Pepsi man Monson
Let's Go Shopping at City Creek Mall
I am a Mormon campaign
Book of Mormon musical
Flip flop revelation or policy of baptisms of gay parents
Dumping Boy Scouts
Nelson dumping anything related to the word Mormon
The Big Pandemic
Allowing zoom and then restricting members to use it
The 100 Billion fund
The Holland Musket talks
The SEC fines

I probably have missed some.

A well put together list for sure. To TBMs the items on the list are all a "tempest in a teacup". Just a reason to profess more faith as they marvel at the mysterious ways the lord works.

However, I would guess that the Prop 8 thing caused more members to leave or at least have second thoughts, strife, than any of the rest.

+1

That was the most damaging.

Prop 8 did irritate me, peoples life's are theirs to live without the dictates of others, excluding of course acts of violence, thefts, and such. Something akin to some of the 10 commandments.

So...........

Prop 8 - Irritated me.

Let's go shopping and the 5 Billion Mall - Super annoyed me.

Nelson dumping the name Mormon after 150 years of use, and Gods's waffling on the issue and finally making up his mind leaving all of his children facing a fire pit. - Made me say what the hell.

The 100 Billion Fund - Caused me to never give any kind of donation again. Besides, gold is the bellwether of money, all those stocks and bonds in the event of the final days would be worthless. So is God that stupid?

The SEC debacle and response. - Caused me to chuckle and say I am not surprised. Plus it confirmed my final decisions over the years.

I agree with all your observation. My point, my guess, is that the combination of demonizing 10% of all Mormons based on innate characteristics and the illegal abuse of the political system drove the knife deepest, leaving wounds that festered until reopened under the later insults.

It's subjective, of course, and idiosyncratic, but I believe that 2008 basically cost the church the loyalty of a uniquely high percentage of members. 30% 20%? A body doesn't die when AIDS enters the body; the virus merely weakens the organism so that a succession of lesser illnesses gradually sap its vital energy until the coup de grace is administered by something apparently silly like Kaposi's sarcoma or even pneumonia.

Done & Done Wrote:
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> A well put together list for sure. To TBMs the
> items on the list are all a "tempest in a teacup".
> Just a reason to profess more faith as they
> marvel at the mysterious ways the lord works.
>
> However, I would guess that the Prop 8 thing
> caused more members to leave or at least have
> second thoughts, strife, than any of the rest.

Prop 8 is what caused my shelf to crack. Yes, there were some things up there prior to this, but there was a loud crack in the foundation of the shelf when Prop 8 hit. By the time Rusty ascended to the throne, the shelf was long gone. But Rusty has been truly awful IMHO.

For me, it was the Gospel Topics Essays that collapsed my shelf. It was, for me, an admission that the church had lied to me about so many issues. Growing up, the church had told me that stuff like Joseph Smith's polygamy, and rumors of a seer stone in a hat were just anti-Mormon lies. Through the essays, the church was admitting that the "bad guys" had been telling me the truth all along, and it was the church that had been lying to me. No way to move past a few decades of lying and re-build any sort of trust.

This is off the top of my head:

How many people 'revolt' and leave because a man supposedly called to a position by inspiration is already a known idiot or later proves it by being a dumbass and making dumbass decisions, and the thought arises, "No way this would happen if this really were the true church!"?

Some others I would add:

Warren Jeffs, who is breakaway LDS, and in prison, but is a steady drip drip drip in the news.

Sam Bateman, Jeffs v 2.0, who hasn't even come to trial yet. A reminder of Mormonism's past.

Under the Banner of Heaven movie

Chad and Lori, Mormons gone bad.

Canadian tithing (I bet a few Canadians left over that)

Australian tithing - ditto

Covid - moratorium on administering to sick

Covid - encouraging masks and vaccinations


As to what caused the greatest strife, that's a bit like asking which straw broke the camel's back. All of them. Which was the last straw depends on the person and their individual circumstance.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> Some others I would add:
>
> Warren Jeffs, who is breakaway LDS, and in prison,
> but is a steady drip drip drip in the news.
>
> Sam Bateman, Jeffs v 2.0, who hasn't even come to
> trial yet. A reminder of Mormonism's past.
>
> Under the Banner of Heaven movie
>
> Chad and Lori, Mormons gone bad.
>
> Canadian tithing (I bet a few Canadians left over
> that)
>
> Australian tithing - ditto
>
> Covid - moratorium on administering to sick
>
> Covid - encouraging masks and vaccinations
>
>
> As to what caused the greatest strife, that's a
> bit like asking which straw broke the camel's
> back. All of them. Which was the last straw
> depends on the person and their individual
> circumstance.

The Canadian and Australian tithing thing is something I don't believe too many members are aware of. Also interesting to note that in the UK, any church or "charitable organization" is required to give detailed accounting reports. The reports in the UK paint a very different picture about church finances, particularly with regards to charitable donations, than what the church PR department likes to put out there. To me that is a huge red flag. In instances where the church is actually held accountable, there is a vast difference between what the church PR department likes to report, and what the legal documents reveal.

^^^^^^

Ud think that for inspired (male) leaders, there wouldn't be a steady drum-roll of embarrassing incidents, but No, the good times just keep on coming!!!

I think one more would be the removal of access to Temple Square. Yes, it's being renovated, rebuilt whatnot but it's a place where many people visited (for the lights at Xmas, the flowers/gardens during spring or to see fall colors.

Maybe bit out of the time frame but correlation.

Second missionary age lowered, the lack of financial and medical care.

It amazes me that parents that went through hell on a mission willingly and even forcefully send their kids.

Third the flip flop on temples.

Ok to get married civilly first, ok to talk about it. Changing the ceremony every five years.

I think the ability to converse with members and former members from all around the world has hurt the church big time. Before we were just compartmentalized in our neighborhoods and wards.

It's being able to openly see what church members and former members actually think. Before people thought that maybe they were weak or rebellious for being skeptical or not liking something. When they find they aren't alone this is empowering.

Theres always something that members don't like about the church or things the church did or didn't do that makes people wonder about the discernment of the leadership. It's discovering plenty of the members or former members think the same thing that is the big game changer.

The church is a big tradition. It's like saying hey, I'm not celebrating Christmas this year. It's a pagan solstice holiday and most the symbolism in it is commercial and pagan. I'm just bagging the whole idea.

Well in the so called Christian Mormon faith how many families would be turned upside down when dad isn't putting up the Christmas tree. Santa isn't coming. Bag the First Presidency Christmas Devotional and the ward Christmas party. It's just going to be another day. Oh man. Dad is in big trouble! In big trouble for pointing the blatant truth out.

The church is no different. If you are the one who stands up and points out the truth and say the whole tradition is based on bullshit and you are no longer participating, get ready for the backlash. Truth doesn't matter. You are breaking tradition! Tradition often is more important than the truth.

I think that announcement about the children of (a) gay parent(s) managed to annoy a lot of people, whichever side of the gay rights debate they fell on. They had to backtrack fast.

President Nelson's obsession with changing everything around for no apparent reason hasn't been popular either.

9-11 killed my faith in a Sky Daddy.

Post mission...learning more about the Holocaust killed my faith in a Sky Daddy.

He/She/It apparently couldn't have cared less.

Or so it seems to me...

Had I read Ellie Weasel’s, “Night” when I was Mormon I would have woken up out of my God Delusion a lot earlier.

The bible is full of blood and gore ... and a flood.

My loathsome favorite was ghawd killing all the firstborn of the Egyptians, although two other stories are just as cruel.

There's the story of the angels of ghawd slaughtering oodles and oodles (100,000+?) of Philistines the evening before a previously scheduled battle with the outnumbered Israelites, and then the story about a Canaanite city surrendering to the Israelites, with the promise that the Canaanites would then be spared...  But there was a stipulation: All the Canaanite men had to be circumcised, which they agreed to. "Then on the third day, when their pain was the greatest, the Israelites entered the city and slew all the males..."

How many died in the book of mormon?  Two million Nephites died in one of the final battles. How many died in the upheavals that preceded the arrival of the Risen Lord that fateful day in March of 33 AD?

I just did a quick Google search, asking 'how many native american died from colonization' and the answer was 56 million.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+native+american+died+from+colonization&rlz=1C1CHZN_enUS941US941&oq=how+many+american+indians+died&aqs=chrome.2.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l4j0i390i650l2.33778j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

No one I know is losing any sleep over it or even contemplating moving to a country where killings never happened, supposing such a place exists.

IMO, the most alarming event of the last 25 years is an event that didn't happen- namely, the return of Jesus as scheduled (per Cleon Skousen) by Dec. 31, 1999 at the latest, probably around noon so that all the world could see him. That was it. That was the big day. Oh, plenty of church folk will bring up the "no man knoweth" stuff, but we all know that "good" Mormons all "knew" that on or before that date Jesus would float down and take over. Well, we know what didn't happen. And ever since then Mormonism has been floundering like a flounder trying to devise some reason for claiming theological superiority. And failing spectacularly, IMO. That's my thoughts, anyway.

I noticed the brethren backing away from the “Christ’s return is neigh” narrative as the 1990s progressed. In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, it was a constant scare tactic, but I think that some of the leaders realized that it was turning into a “boy who cried wolf” situation.

slskipper Wrote:
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> IMO, the most alarming event of the last 25 years
> is an event that didn't happen- namely, the return
> of Jesus as scheduled (per Cleon Skousen) by Dec.
> 31, 1999 at the latest, probably around noon so
> that all the world could see him. That was it.
> That was the big day. Oh, plenty of church folk
> will bring up the "no man knoweth" stuff, but we
> all know that "good" Mormons all "knew" that on or
> before that date Jesus would float down and take
> over. Well, we know what didn't happen. And ever
> since then Mormonism has been floundering like a
> flounder trying to devise some reason for claiming
> theological superiority. And failing
> spectacularly, IMO. That's my thoughts, anyway.

Sounds very much like the late "DR." Harold Camping who owned a whole network of radio stations throughout the U.S. and parts of Europe as well, if memory serves. He kept saying that Jesus was supposed to show on this or that date and when He didn't, the good minister would wait a month or two and then conjure up another date for the Messiah to appear.

After he died (I think it was around 2004 or 2005), his network of stations, which was primarily him preaching and teaching, was taken over by a nondenominational conservative Christian group, and now one hears multiple ministers on the radio stations in that network. About the only thing this religious group doesn't do, unlike most of their right-wing religious counterparts, is allow the ministers they contract with to directly comment on current news and political events.

which drove me out of the church, but there are also members of my immediate family who left over what happened to me. I went inactive in about 1994 or so, so it has been a while. I have a lot of people, extended family and friends, who have also run into this issue and some have also left over how they treat gays and the unrealistic answers they have for gays.

Right. I also saw the strife caused in a family with a gay person.

My MIL was torn between loving her gay son while rejecting him as a sinner. People experienced pain because of the church's rejection of gay equality.

The greatest strife should be caused by women realizing the problems with Patriarchy rule over them, but for some reason too many women are blind to it.

dagny Wrote:
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> The greatest strife should be caused by women
> realizing the problems with Patriarchy rule over
> them, but for some reason too many women are blind
> to it.

I started to realize this as a kid and took issue with it back then!

Don't forget the CES letter by Jeremey Runnells. I would love to anonymously mail it to some family members. ;-)

did in my life like the bishopric interviews, etc. I was telling my sister how from age 12 on up, the leaders were always trying to be in my business about sex and I was about as naive as you can be. I learned too much from church leaders about sex and they also not only interviewed me as a teenager, but then I got the issues with me being in the relationship with someone gay. I was talking to one or another leader about once a week about how we were going to do this such as checking my boyfriend's masturbation habits (which I didn't do--I told him what the bishop told me to do, but that I wasn't going to but I thought he should be aware).

Once we were married, I refused to go to any interviews with leaders. They were destroying who I was and had always been. The extreme pervasiveness of how they do this didn't really occur to me until just very recently.

They are a sick group. I already knew they were long before now, but there are things I never realized until now.

Nothing will move the majority of members. Most will just gradually lose interest. It’s a slow attrition, but despite claims that it’s growing, the heart of Mormonism is dying.

Let's not forget "The Proclamation". It was on the church foyer wall for 3 or 4 years before I took the time to read it. It was like something left over from the 70's. Remember when there was a clean out the old stuff from the ward libraries? This was a church wide project. All the important books and magazines were thrown away. As I recall some members made off with a lot of stuff. Goodbye flannel board stories.

I didn't grow up with this "Crock" as I call it. It is a slow drain, but it is open and working. Women are still treated unequally and Utah rates last of all states.

For me it was the internet. My shelf was full of questions. When I had first learned in young women that Joseph Smith had multiple wives it didn't sit well with me. I never went to the library and got a book out on LDS polygamy. It was the year 2012 and I went online to learn about LDS polygamy and found out that Helen Mar Kimball was only 14 years old when Joseph Smith married her. Polygamy started it and it went down the rabbit hole from there. Where did the word of wisdom come from? What Joseph Smith drank alcohol the night he was killed? Women used to give healing blessings. Temple changes, garment changes. For a God who is never changing there have been many changes. That the Book of Abraham has nothing to do with Abraham but are funeral scrolls. Instead of a horse head Joseph Smith put a human head on. The book of Mormon and the late war it is copy and paste. The kinderhook plates. Seeing that the lds church is so rich yet members need to almost beg to get financial support when they need it. Premarital sex some people can't get married for 6 months after that some need to wait a year. How can bishops be so different one more relaxed the other bishop extreme strict.
The information is right at the fingertip.

I think the greatest strife was time. It moved on and mormons were left looking in the rear view mirror. Their attempt to "correlate" their way out of it didn't help. But I'm sure that Covid was the death knell.

For me, and for anyone who believes in, and/or understands science and the scientific method, it would be the lack of DNA evidence that Native Americans could have ancestors that originated in the Middle East.

TSCC lost control on the narrative of why people leave.

With the information becoming extremely accessible due to the internet more people are seeing through the lies. With more individuals and their stories being accessable online.

Also knowing someone in person who has left Mormonism it becomes more personal. It becomes a more relatable experience.

TSCC still is pushing that people want to sin or are offended, deceived by Satan, etc. It doesn't pass the sniff test anymore when you know the person.

It’s a great motivator to live well, very well. Do because it’s right, and also it confounds those who stayed behind. It really messes with their heads, and maybe leads them to question.

I'd be hard pressed to pick one specific thing here are my top 6;

-Prop 8

-NNN releasing the temple vid on Youtube. I wonder if Big Love, UTBOH, or Keep Sweet get made if NNN doesn't make this,

-"the policy"

-The essays - especially what the admit, like the BOA doesn't match the papyrus, the priesthood ban on blacks wasn't "doctrine" (it was when I was a kid...) multiple first vision accounts, and that JS married teenagers. Most of these were considered anti-mormon lies back in the 80s

-The $100 Billion fund...Republican Jesus must be proud..

-The internet, pre internet if you had a question you had to get information the hard way; reading books, making notes, etc etc...it used to take weeks and months of intense study to get all the information to get to the bottom of tscc's lies. The internet is like freebased information, you can read a summary like the CES letter/Mormon think/exmormon.org in a couple hours and have your whole world rocked.

Since links are not allowed, Google "Salamander Society Internet" and it will take you to a slew of posts from the early days of exmos talking on the internet (about the internet)

http://www.salamandersociety.com/internet/

Some links are not allowed. Most are.

>-NNN releasing the temple vid on Youtube. I wonder if Big Love, UTBOH, or Keep Sweet get made if NNN doesn't make this,

I doubt the temple endowment video had any effect on whether or not those movies/programs were produced. There have been a number of very detailed descriptions of the endowment, notably in Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake. Didn't Richard Packham do endowment reenactments at the Exmormon conferences back in the day?

Over the last 40 years, there have been a number of sources of information on the endowment. Lighthouse Ministry may have had info farther back than that.


In my additions to the original list, I forgot about Big Love and Keep Sweet. D'oh!

The Tribune published the entire temple ceremony back in the 19th century.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >-NNN releasing the temple vid on Youtube. I
> wonder if Big Love, UTBOH, or Keep Sweet get made
> if NNN doesn't make this,
>
> I doubt the temple endowment video had any effect
> on whether or not those movies/programs were
> produced. There have been a number of very
> detailed descriptions of the endowment, notably in
> Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake. Didn't Richard
> Packham do endowment reenactments at the Exmormon
> conferences back in the day?
>
> Over the last 40 years, there have been a number
> of sources of information on the endowment.
> Lighthouse Ministry may have had info farther back
> than that.
>
>
> In my additions to the original list, I forgot
> about Big Love and Keep Sweet. D'oh!

I think the birth of Youtube played a big role however. As the person mentioned, prior to the internet, you had to dig to find information. With NNN's recordings of the temple ceremony out there on Youtube, anyone could find it within minutes, and then actually watch the ceremony in real time. I don't think it scared off any endowed members, but I am sure it scared off a lot of non-endowed members and non-members.

I would add the ever evolving temple garbage. It's so watered down now and I expect it to "main stream" even more. Soon we will be accused of telling lies about the baker hats, green aprons and veils. No washing, no oiling up, no magic handshakes. Just pay your money every month then come on down and watch a dumb movie as a good excuse to get away from the kids for a couple of hours.

People get divorced all the time and no one bats an eye. Women work outside of the home. GIRLS go on missions.

And yeah, I am still bitter about the Coke.

A lying, crooked, dangerous, harmful so-called 'church'

There are so many things to list, and I agree with all the comments from everyone.

I would probably add the Mark Hoffman murders.

Apparently, none of the "brethern" had read "Discernment for Dummy's", or they would have realized who they were dealing with.

Dallin Oaks had the nerve to tell church members to be more sophisticated with what they read, and he defended the white salamander story.

https://i0.wp.com/forensicfilesnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/2021-netflix-mark-hofmann-court.jpg?w=748&ssl=1

I knew Mark pretty well, and long suspected he was a fraud, and knew very well he was a pathological liar. When he was shown with the first presidency showing off his Book of Mormon Character forgery I could not believe any of them could not discern he was a crook. When he blew up Steve Christensen, who I also knew and his family, I was filled with rage against the church. I still attended but it was clear to me they were frauds, and just before that a lot of DNA studies of native americans were coming out showing they originated in North Eastern asia and had nothing to do with Middle eastern DNA. When I was in graduate school I corresponded with one of the main authors of the early native american DNA studies, and he was amazed that the church did not come out with some kind of explanation about the B of M as a fabrication. I started trying to figure out how to convince my wife to leave the Church, that ended up taking a while.

When I hear of all these new stories I'm reminded how the Correlation program has wired my brain to retain remembrance of this list of mine. It seems long to me as it's as long as it's ever going to get .....

Obedience

That's my list. The news story is to be Obedient to the Brethren. I see that some of you mentioned other items. But, my correlated Brain has filtered things down to what is on this list of mine that you see. If your brains can be programmed too by the Correlation program then you'll have the same list too.

Getting up on Sunday and getting all the kids ready for church and trying to make it on time.....but that's been stressful for longer than 25 years!

Roy G Biv Wrote:
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> Getting up on Sunday and getting all the kids
> ready for church and trying to make it on
> time.....but that's been stressful for longer than
> 25 years!

Many many Goop family melees were caused by not getting to church on-time. I was that family trying to sneak into a pew as the last stanza of the sacrament hymn was finished.

LOL.

I think this happened quite a lot. IMHO, the kids, and perhaps even the even parents even, just didn't want to go, and did their best to sabotage the endeavor. :)

I can't say what made former Mormons quit being Mormons - but I can say that, for this outsider, the Book of Mormon was very revealing (especially when attendees say, "they don't really believe that.." and I insist they really do believe...cue Andrew Rannells, here).

and, if I had ever been Mormon, the $100 Billion Fund would've made me stop giving money immediately.

With enough like-minded people, that could lead to the ultimate winding-down.

I woul suggest it is whatever the catalyst was for the Mormon Church to decide to change things, doctrine and such, and move into the direction of the mainstream. The effort to be accepted not as some strange sect with off beat theology but one with enough identifying markers to be acceoted as a viable option among all the other churches.

I am old enough to remember a heavy advertising campaign by a united church front begun in the late 70s (in Arizona, I think, or perhaps California) that was resistance to the then inroads and growth Mormonism was having. The thrust of the campaign was the idea that people should be aware that the Mormon Church was not a Christian church. What surprised me at the time was the Church responding in ways I don't think they had previously. Perhaps this was the beginning of the mainstreaming we are seeing today.

I only know what caused the great strife of 1978.

* Lockdowns and vaccinations. The church was even stricter than the government. They scared off some people permanently to the point of mental illness in some cases. I know a physically healthy twenty year old man who now has a pathological fear of germs since 2020 and won't come in. (Because he is so isolated he has started hearing voices and had a nervous breakdown.) I know of another woman in her forties who still wears a mask and wipes down everything. She won't shake hands with anyone. Several local members I know of have fallen back into full blown alcoholism.
* The September 6 (Yes, I know it is thirty years ago but still a big deal)
* The church helping and endorsing illegal immigration.
* The whole sexuality and gender debate. Mishandling of women's issues.
* 13 Shell Companies.
* Using Faecebook and Zoom.
* (Not) going to presidential inaugurations. (Going to Bush"s, not going to Trump's) Mitt Romney.
* Painting over Minerva Teichert's art. Destroying the Salt Lake Temple.
* Constant changes to the temple ceremony.
* The church becoming involved with the United Nations and big global charities such as Unicef etc.
* Sexual abuse and the Boy Scouts.

for me it was all the ones you listed and the ones you missed and then some. some more than others but it all added up.