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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
When I was eight years old my family was living in Tulsa, OK. One day, my dad was told that the company he was working for was going to close their Tulsa office, so he’d be transferred to another city.
We were told that we’d soon be moving to Albany, Chicago, Denver, Houston, or Los Angeles. Eventually, they asked him to take a position in Denver. My dad worked in the Denver office until he retired, and lived in the Denver area for the rest of his life. One decision (the company’s transfer destination) dramatically impacted many people’s lives. I come from a large family. If we had moved to a different city, my siblings and I would have attended other schools, met other friends, had different experiences, and married other people (well, I do have one brother who met his wife at BYU, so maybe…). I have many nieces and nephews. I had grown up in a different area, I’d still have nieces and nephews, but it would be a completely different group of people. I have to assume that with different schools, friends, and experiences, I and/or some of my siblings would likely have chosen different career paths. One decision dramatically impacted many people.
Mormons believe that God knew 2000 years in advance that exactly 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript would be lost. The number of decisions that needed to go exactly right for that situation to take place is beyond comprehension. What if Martin Harris’ great-great-great grandfather made a mistake during a hunting expedition and died before he fathered a child? No Martin Harris to lose the manuscript. 2 Nephi 3 contains prophecy of Joseph Smith, and it states that he would be named after his father. What if Joseph Smith Sr’s family had decided to name him George, would he no longer be worthy to be father of the prophet of this dispensation? In order for prophecy to work, one of two things must be true. Either:
1) God knows every decision, no matter how minute or seemingly trivial, that ever has or ever will be made, or
2) We actually don’t make choices-EVERYTHING is predetermined.
Agency (whether you call it “free agency” or “moral agency”) and prophecy are mutually exclusive.
We were told that we’d soon be moving to Albany, Chicago, Denver, Houston, or Los Angeles. Eventually, they asked him to take a position in Denver. My dad worked in the Denver office until he retired, and lived in the Denver area for the rest of his life. One decision (the company’s transfer destination) dramatically impacted many people’s lives. I come from a large family. If we had moved to a different city, my siblings and I would have attended other schools, met other friends, had different experiences, and married other people (well, I do have one brother who met his wife at BYU, so maybe…). I have many nieces and nephews. I had grown up in a different area, I’d still have nieces and nephews, but it would be a completely different group of people. I have to assume that with different schools, friends, and experiences, I and/or some of my siblings would likely have chosen different career paths. One decision dramatically impacted many people.
Mormons believe that God knew 2000 years in advance that exactly 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript would be lost. The number of decisions that needed to go exactly right for that situation to take place is beyond comprehension. What if Martin Harris’ great-great-great grandfather made a mistake during a hunting expedition and died before he fathered a child? No Martin Harris to lose the manuscript. 2 Nephi 3 contains prophecy of Joseph Smith, and it states that he would be named after his father. What if Joseph Smith Sr’s family had decided to name him George, would he no longer be worthy to be father of the prophet of this dispensation? In order for prophecy to work, one of two things must be true. Either:
1) God knows every decision, no matter how minute or seemingly trivial, that ever has or ever will be made, or
2) We actually don’t make choices-EVERYTHING is predetermined.
Agency (whether you call it “free agency” or “moral agency”) and prophecy are mutually exclusive.
If everything were true then another would simply step in to fulfil the need.
D&C 35:18 states that if Joseph didn't change his ways "another will I plant in his stead."
Of course prophecies written after the fact are not true prophecy.
D&C 35:18 states that if Joseph didn't change his ways "another will I plant in his stead."
Of course prophecies written after the fact are not true prophecy.
Excellent. Joseph was warning people, harassing them if they didn't do what he wanted, and yet it was obvious all along. The strength of the folk belief in a shrinking world was too strong apparently.
CrispingPin wrote in part:
"2) We actually don’t make choices-EVERYTHING is predetermined."
What you are describing in 2) is the concept of predestination and it predates Mormonism by a couple of centuries, if memory serves. Its basis is in the writings of John Calvin, the man who started a Protestant religion known as Calvinism which would later be known as Puritanism. Today, the inheritors of this religious philosophy can be found (mostly) in the various Calvary churches found around the U.S.
I will break off to say here that John Calvin had another weird idea that has found its way not only in to the Calvary churches of today but inside the Mormon church itself. That idea? The wealthy man is in God's good graces while the poor man is not. When forwarding this idea, Calvin and his followers completely ignore the many points in the New Testament where Jesus chastises the wealthy for their often greedy behavior.
At any rate, both of these ideas are very much alive and well in U.S.-based religions.
"2) We actually don’t make choices-EVERYTHING is predetermined."
What you are describing in 2) is the concept of predestination and it predates Mormonism by a couple of centuries, if memory serves. Its basis is in the writings of John Calvin, the man who started a Protestant religion known as Calvinism which would later be known as Puritanism. Today, the inheritors of this religious philosophy can be found (mostly) in the various Calvary churches found around the U.S.
I will break off to say here that John Calvin had another weird idea that has found its way not only in to the Calvary churches of today but inside the Mormon church itself. That idea? The wealthy man is in God's good graces while the poor man is not. When forwarding this idea, Calvin and his followers completely ignore the many points in the New Testament where Jesus chastises the wealthy for their often greedy behavior.
At any rate, both of these ideas are very much alive and well in U.S.-based religions.
As I tell my Calvinist friends, it is hard to reconcile "whosoever" (John 3:16) to predestination taught by Calvin.
I think that you can have both agency, but also a situation in which the past, present, and future are already known, because time as we know it does not exist beyond the physical realm.
>because time as we know it does not exist beyond the physical realm.
Do you have an Albert Einstein quote to back that up? ;)
Do you have an Albert Einstein quote to back that up? ;)
No, but I know where we could get one.
;-)
;-)