https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/

The thing that makes this link interesting is that obviously gender dysphoria is one mode that that the autistic struggle can take. If you feel like you're living outside of the mainstream of humanity, if you feel like you're not real in your own skin, if you feel like people don't see you for who you are even when they're looking at you, and if people are in turn a mystery to you as well, well, maybe you're just autistic. Or maybe your soul and your body are mismatched. You're free to believe that too. To each their own. As long as it makes you happy.

America is a free country, and people of all sorts of persuasions are free to live those beliefs out here with reasonable accommodations that stop at the border of extending the same right to others. I've raised this argument here on the board before. If progressives stopped trying to shove all sorts of gender theory down everybody's throats and instead tried to make an argument for freedom, they'd get a lot farther. It might also keep them from reflexively defending every single stupid move this society makes in the name of diversity, exclusivity, and equity, which often gives reactionary media their daily fodder. Like drag queen story hour, for one example.

You are not being oppressed simply because broader society thinks your beliefs are stupid. Christian fundamentalists need to learn this fact as hard as some others. You are being oppressed when no one will hire you or give you living quarters on equal terms with anyone else; or perhaps when they tell you to come through the back door and sit segregated from the rest of everyone else. You are being oppressed when the risk of bodily harm is manyfold greater than other groups of people and nobody lifts a finger to do anything about it, because that's kinda the point. But weird sideways looks by themselves are not oppression. Those are your fellow citizens betraying their thoughts with their body language that they're not sold on whatever it is you have or have failed to communicate to them. IF have not lifted a finger against you and or even spoken against you, and yet you design shibboleths to weed out the haters to bring down maximum pressure on them, you are the tyrant, not them. So what if they hate you? -- as long as they leave you alone. Leaving people alone who aren't harming you is the key to healing this diseased society. Everybody needs to relearn this. That's real pluralism. That's enlightened liberalism. We don't need to make enemies of people who might on other issues be on our side, as long as we can persuade them into a social compact where trans people get a better deal than that which they have heretofore enjoyed.

You can't legislate against hatred or any other emotion. Trying to legislate against hatred or otherwise silencing people who have moral objections by brute force is the essence of what the enlightenment was trying to get away from. Right-think and wrong think. Orthodoxy and heresy. The government picking sides. Why don't other groups bend the knee and confess the truth as those with power see it? They must be full of hate; we can't trust them. Such thoughts drove the pilgrims to flee old England across the sea to New England. But even in the New World, they kept making these same mistakes over and over again, which is why America was many different colonial governments and not just one. That's what it took to make the peace. It took a slave-holding white Virginian named Thomas Jefferson to make the bold assertion that those in government have no business making laws based on religion or religiously-informed morality. Imperfect man. Imperfect society. But it was a bold leap forward in the right direction, and it laid a pluralistic foundation for the colonies to form a federal union.

In a secular, pluralistic society founded on enlightened principles, the individual is liberated from the need to conform to an established view. Further, the individual is free to associate with whomever they want, speak how they want, believe what they want, dress how they want, and persuade others without needing to fear government retaliation (ideally anyway). If your happiness is tied to the external validation of others agreeing with you -- well... may the strength of your arguments prevail. I genuinely wish people the best. But when you seek to force your view on others just to hear it out of their mouths to consume on your insecurities, you are a bastard.

A lot of the arguments I've heard, since leaving the church as identifying as a progressive, about tolerating the beliefs and lifestyles of other people resemble the original arguments that the Mormons made two centuries ago under the same constitution. Joseph Smith Jr. gave a lot of speeches that sound more American than anybody I hear these days.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/articles/religious-freedom

I think a view of equality that is firmly up the same tree which Joseph Smith was barking is the right path forward for this country. Joe was a womanizer, and he was a swindler -- yes, he was all of those things, and Mormonism is bullshit -- but he connected with people as an orator because he spoke to things they cared about and poured obvious heart into what he was saying. Reminds me another charismatic buffoon people have fallen for in recent years; someone who is, despite his many many flaws, a brilliant orator who connects with his target audience in charismatic ways his critics cannot fathom. Joe and his whole enterprise were quintessentially American, and I mean that in every good way and bad way you can imagine, as long as you picture it accurately.

This might sound like a convoluted way of saying "I hate trans people," but it's really not. I'm indifferent, if I have to spell out my real thoughts. I often find the movement annoying for all the oxygen it sucks out of the room and all the energy it wastes on propositions most people are never going to accept and will silently hate and inevitably rebel against. But I don't hate the trans movement anymore than I hate Mormons or any other religious sect; it's just there and I'm invested, for my own sake if nothing else, in thinking of ways for us to respect each other and live in harmony. I'm annoyed by all the quasi-religious elements of "social justice" in fact, even when I find myself on that side of the argument. I think there are smarter ways to play the game, and I think it's wise to pick your battles. It is annoying that people feel like they have to defend things like drag queen story hour or else they don't love trans people sufficiently enough to be part of the "right side of history." Oh brother, just stop with that shit.

There was a civil war in this country once. It killed two thirds of a million people or close to 10% of the population. There could be another. Before then, there were conflicts that tore Europe apart over matters of conscience and religion in government and morality in legislation that scarred the land for so many generations until few of educated cared to preserve Christian culture anymore. I would love to see a day when conservatism means conserving the separation of church and state which ended those conflicts and when liberalism means the liberation and rights of the individual above anybody's notion of what the collective ought to be forced to believe. That's what those words ought to mean. That's what they've meant in the past. You can't force every last person to think right-thoughts; you can only declare war on them in that regard, and they will resent you equally in turn and fight you if they can, which is what's happening. If they can't fight, they will run and form separate societies apart from yours, which is how America was born in the first place.

I'm of the opinion that there is fight brewing between the richest Americans and a system they have stolen from us and rigged against us and everyone else, and our energy is better spent on that perspective, but that's just my opinion. Martin Luther King made some brilliant speeches before his death about how if a man doesn't have a job or an income, he's not really free. Maybe "social justice" is best piggy-backed on an argument for material justice or class justice that includes everyone. These are just thoughts. I would love to an America where people have material security and social freedom, but at the very least I'd love to see an America that doesn't fracture at the pluralistic seams because Americans on all sides forgot how to compromise.

"Eplurubis Unum" was our national motto for many years before theists imposed the other one.

Hence we say that the Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard. It is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner. It is to all those who are privileged with the sweats of its liberty like the cooling shades and refreshing waters of a great rock in a thirsty and a weary land. It is like a great tree under whose branches men from every clime can be shielded from the burning rays of an inclement sun.

We, brethren, are deprived of the protection of this glorious principle by the cruelty of the cruel, by those who only look for the time being for pasturage, like the beasts of the field, only to fill themselves and forget that the Mormons, as well as the Presbyterians and those of every class and description, have equal rights to partake of the fruit of the great tree of our national liberty.

(Joseph Smith et al., Liberty, MO, to Edward Partridge and the Church, Quincy, IL, [ca. 22 Mar. 1839], Revelations Collection, Church History Library)

Mormonism is truth, and every man who embraced it felt himself at liberty to embrace every truth. Consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft fall at once from his neck, and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft; hence the priests are alarmed, and they raise a hue and cry: “Down with these men! heresy! heresy! fanaticism! false prophet! false teachers! away with these men! crucify them! crucify them!” And now, sir, this is the sole cause of the persecution against the Mormon people. And now if they had been Mahomedans [Muslims], Hottentots [Khoikhoi of southwestern Africa], or Pagans, or in fine, sir, if their religion was as false as hell, what right would men have to drive them from their homes, and their country, or to exterminate them so long as their religion did not interfere with the civil rights of men, according to the laws of our country? None at all. . . .

Be assured, sir, that I have the most liberal sentiments and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations, and the rights and liberties of conscience I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.

(Joseph Smith, Liberty, MO, to Isaac Galland, [Commerce, IL], 22 Mar. 1839, in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, 1:53, 55–56)

I believe that a religion is instituted of God and that men are amenable to him and to him only for the exercise of it unless their religious opinion prompts them to infringe upon the rights and liberty of others. But I do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men nor dictate forms for public or private devotion. The civil magistrate should restrain crime but never control conscience, should punish guilt but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

(Joseph Smith, Brandywine, PA, to the Editor of the Chester County Register and Examiner, 22 Jan. 1840, private possession)

We wish it likewise to be distinctly understood that we claim no privilege but what we feel cheerfully disposed to share with our fellow citizens of every denomination, and every sentiment of religion, and therefore say that, so far from being restricted to our own faith, let all those who desire to locate themselves in this place, or vicinity, come, and we will hail them as citizens and friends and shall feel it not only a duty, but a privilege, to reciprocate the kindness we have received from the benevolent and kind-hearted citizens of the state of Illinois.

(Joseph Smith et al., “A Proclamation to the Saints Scattered Abroad,” Times and Seasons, 15 Jan. 1841, 2:277)

“Church History,” 1 March 1842

We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may.

(Joseph Smith, “Church History,” Times and Seasons, 1 Mar. 1842, 3:710)

Ought not the views of the trans community and many other despised communities to fall under this one? Let them worship how, where, or what they may; or explore their identities and pursue their happiness in whatever way they see fit as long as it leaves all other people the same opportunity. There will be many who simply never accept trans people as they view themselves or even pay lip service to it. Leave them alone as long as they leave you alone. There's some work to be done to discover where that balance is best stricken, but it exists and we can find it and then live in peace.

No wonder Joseph Smith had so many wifes. He could tell anyone what they wanted to hear.

Which is fine since that's all they listen to anyway.

The right combination of what people thought was right and what must logically and morally follow. Nobody wanted to have “celestial [plural] marriage” sprang on them, but he was very careful only to do it to people who already placed a high degree of trust in him. Not everyone took it, but I think most whom he cornered this way did take it eventually.

But when he was speaking publicly, he was very careful to speak to the mainstream of his audience’s heart. He knew polygamy would never fly in public in 1840e America, so he denied it flatly in public. He did have a gift for reading the room and speaking to people’s religious imaginations through their heartstrings.

Joseph was a P. T. Barnum with libido. You have to look at the intent. What drove Joseph? He wanted power, first and foremost. The women were part of that. Certainly wife stealing was a show of power.

Joseph's revelations were bunk. It doesn't bode well for Mormonism or any religion that depends on revelation from authority. What authority? The little guy downstairs? The wallet? The gun? What do their revelations have to do with you? They don't translate to your individual experience. To pretend that they do is to give your power away to a cult.

Anyone growing up in an abusive and hard scraping condition knows how to read people. They have to for survival.

I took a college course in which Ruby K. Payne's "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" was one of the texts. She makes the argument that generational poverty (not situational poverty) leads to a distinct culture from which it is difficult to escape. While I understand that her views are controversial in some circles, as an educator of impoverished children, her writing resonated with me.

One of the characteristics that she mentions is that of being a good storyteller. Poor people may not have access to books, TV, or the internet, and as a result, they often develop the ability to tell entertaining stories to one another. I immediately made the association with Joseph Smith.

My girlfriend is autistic and it affects her choice of fabrics and love of Pokemon more than her gender (Source: her own words). Though I'm biased; one of the reasons I love her is because we geek out together.

And what do you mean by "trans movement?" I thought healthcare issues for trans and cis folks overlapped and letting someone use the crapper was basic decency.

As for drag queen story hours, if you find defending it ridiculous, what does that say about the folks demonizing it?

And, as a final case of overlap, several of the politicians who loosen laws for the rich at the expense of everyone else are the same ones demonizing LGBTQ+ folks.

Yeah, I was tempted to bring those issues up when C-D first posted it. In fact, I thought the title and the link were more a means of shoe-horning in a rant against trans people, drag queens, etc.

C-D is not an ally.

Which I don't get, to be honest. I thought it was possible to support LGBTQ+ rights and American democracy.

Sometimes it's easier to work with people instead of ignoring them or telling them their problems aren't important.

As for US history being "imperfect," I thought the idea was to learn from the mistakes of the past to be better.

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which I don't get, to be honest. I thought it was
> possible to support LGBTQ+ rights and American
> democracy.

Of course it's possible. But only with people who are empathetic and democratic in inclination.

C-D is neither. His impulses are reactionary--gay people offend him--and corporatist.

LW, you don't care about anybody or anything but your own views and your own feelings. You are nobody's ally; you're just here to chop everybody else off at the knees to nurse the wounds the Mormon church left on you.

No, she just gets tired of your constant tendency to act in a completely self-absorbed manner. As do many of us, I imagine.

C-D, I wasn’t talking to you. I tried a few times but you were indignant that I would suggest that women will not shut up and let you do the thinking while we cook donuts.

So I don’t try anymore. Please feel free to ignore me.

Honestly, what does that mean?

If it comes to your attention that as many as half of the Ts are on the spectrum, do you wave your hand and say "sterilize yourselves, I don't give a shit," or do you ask questions...

half? half. [[[fucking]]] HALF.

You know what I think is that perhaps some people choose that view of themselves because in practicing it, it makes them feel like they finally know the social script that has eluded them their whole lives, it makes everything that happens around them socially happen in large enough resolution that they feel like they can finally read the social cues, and it gets them noticed and affirmed whereas maybe just before they came out they felt invisible, unseen, nonreal, and etc. Those are autistic traits, and maybe there is another way short of plastic surgery for them to feel real, seen, and heard.

None of you have honestly put that much thought into this. NONE OF YOU. It's just the next letter on a list of letters you have to affirm like to-do list or you're a bad person. I want to understand something if I'm being asked to defend it, because I will not reflexively defend it when I think it's wrong. The further the American liberal movement goes out on that particular limb, the harder I find it to have anything to say about it when it comes up in my family gatherings. I want to understand WHY, and you don't get to villainize me for not understanding immediately. I don't think any of YOU even understand what you're talking about; you're just here to earn cheap points by being whatever the Mormon church won't be. Those relationships aren't any deeper than that though.

We're here to help each other. Sometimes this place seems less like this but it still functions and I think you've lost site of that fact.

>>...it gets them noticed and affirmed whereas maybe just before they came out they felt invisible, unseen, nonreal, and etc.

That's a lot of people. That's women, and black people, Latinos, Asians, native Americans, gays, trans people, the nonreligious, etc. They all just want to be seen, and free to live their lives without discrimination or harassment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2023 06:38AM by summer.

I'm just sick of having the risk of things turning political whenever I gush about my girlfriend. Just once, I wish discussions about her could focus on birthday gift suggestions.

You're not a terrible person, Cold-Dodger, just a bit of a fool. Stop, breathe, and think.

How about not judging people and accepting them for who they are for starters -- or thinking that they are "abnormal" and need to be "fixed" or worse, "eliminated."

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/supporting-the-transgender-people-in-your-life-a-guide-to-being-a-good-ally

There is no one way to be a ‘perfect’ ally. The transgender community is diverse and complex, coming from every region of the United States and around the world, from every racial and ethnic background, and from every faith community. This means that different members of the transgender community have different needs and priorities. Similarly, there is no one right way to handle every situation, or interact with every trans person. Be respectful, do your best, and keep trying.

You don’t have to understand someone’s identity to respect it. Some people haven’t heard a lot about transgender identity, or have trouble understanding what it means to be trans, and that’s okay. But all people, even those whose identities you don’t fully understand, deserve respect.

You can’t always tell if someone is transgender simply by looking at them. Many people expect that they’ll “just know” when someone is trans, and may be surprised to learn that this isn’t always true. Since there is no one transgender experience, there is no one way for transgender people to look, either. Trans people might be in groups or gatherings alongside you without you realizing that we’re there – which makes it even more important to be an outspoken ally and supporter, whether or not you are aware of any trans people around you.

There is no “one right way” to be transgender. Some transgender people choose to medically transition, and some don’t. Some transgender people choose to legally change their names or ID documents, and some don’t. Some transgender people choose to change their appearance (like their clothing or hair), and some don’t. Likewise, some transgender people may want to do many of those things but are unable to because they can’t afford it or for safety reasons. A transgender person’s identity does not depend on what things they have or haven’t done to transition, and no two transgender people’s journeys are exactly alike.

Continue to educate yourself. One of the simplest ways to be a strong ally is to take your education into your own hands. It’s important to have conversations with the trans people in your life, but it’s also important for you to seek out resources and information on your own.