When I was a young lad growing up in the church, I used to wonder about being "called" to be a missionary, and this 'wondering' included the supposition that David O. McKay would suddenly be inspired to yell to his secretary, "There's a kid in Las Vegas Second Ward who the Lord wants called to be a missionary!  He's brown and skinny...  Call the bishop there, get the kid's name and address, and prepare a mission call letter for me to sign!"

Alas, such was not the actual process.

It has occurred to wonder about the process for calling MPs.  

I found out about how missionaries get callings when my bishop asked me if I wanted to go on a mission, and when I expressed interest, we filled out the application.

Is it likely to be the same thing with regard to MPs?

With the diversity in MP styles, it strikes me that they get left to their own 'inspiration' a lot more than missionaries.  Does anyone know how much inspection and overview they are subject to?

Is it possible that a wife's personality or appearance could torpedo the process and cause the MP's application to be rejected?

And is it conceivable that a wife was so great that her qualities could overcome the urge to reject an MP based on things lacking in his accomplishments or demeanor?

Has anyone heard of an MP being removed from the calling for just generally being an incompetent weiner?

I have noticed that it is helpful to be part Morman Royalty.

High up enough or connected to the upper crust of mormonism to realize that they need to keep quiet about the stipends and other perks that come with being a MP.

I had an old mormon friend I grew up with who married into royalty and became a MP.

My old MP in the Philippines was a Richards and could proudly trace his heritage back to the pioneers.

I don't t think they would call total incompetent weiners because they would know them all well enough to get a good bead on how they will act under pressure. That said, they may be more desperate now...

My MP was a close friend of Gordo. That might have had something to do with his calling.

elderolddog Wrote:
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>
> With the diversity in MP styles, it strikes me
> that they get left to their own 'inspiration' a
> lot more than missionaries.  Does anyone know
> how much inspection and overview they are subject
> to?

You made me laugh out loud. Seriously? My MPs wife bragged about how her uncle the recently dead apostle was prompted to have her husband called.

> Has anyone heard of an MP being removed from the
> calling for just generally being an incompetent
> weiner?

ROTFLMAO

I recently heard about a local high-ranking TBM I know of who was dreading being called to be a mission president. He has a great life with a successful career and was worried that not only would he have to leave it all behind, but at his age, he was sure that when he returned from his 3 years of MP service he would be unemployable.

He wasn't called to be a mission president but to another position. He would have dutifully walked away from his successful career if asked, though. He's a dedicated and obedient TBM.

A man in my ward with a successful career and large family was called to be a mission president. When he returned he had a difficult time re-starting his career and eventually had to sell his house due to financial difficulties. It's not a good financial move for many to walk away from a career for three years, especially when middle aged or close to it.

So, to answer your question, I think many mission presidents are personally contacted - they don't volunteer like regular missionaries.

Sir the Dog,

By the time a man or woman (teeheehee) is in the running to become an MP, the GAs and apostles already know him or her (ibid.). You have to remember that the apostles make most of the decisions about SPs and of course know the ultra-rich TBMs personally. So there needn't be much additional investigation when they're looking for an MP.

And yes, having a loud or indiscrete wife can absolutely stop a man or woman (need I say it?) from becoming an MP. Or an SP or a bishop for that matter. Wives must be seen but not heard--except for when announcing that the donuts are ready--and wholly obedient. Otherwise, there's no chance of becoming an MP.

Which, on second thought, may well explain why Lot married me.

My first MPs wife ran the mission, she told Johs (her pet name for John) what to do and he did it. She berated the elders as being lazy and not trying hard enough and commanded how we should spend p=day, what we should and should not eat, and how to wash our dishes. Elder Green who posted here under another name gave a nice tribute to dear Edna.

Mine was the same.

My observations is that the church leadership take notice of tithe payers who donate a few standard deviations above the average tithe payers and who have had at least stake or region leadership positions.

The second qualifying point is the future MP is involved or does business with Church owned businesses or professional firms.

One of my mission presidents was a vice president at Zion's Bank, my other mission president was the owner of a company that supplied the Church's sound systems, organs, and lighting systems for ward and stake houses.

There are several MPs from my high school graduating class, doctors who have treated GAs and lawyers who have worked on Church projects like Prop 8 and Prop 22 in California. One of these is now a GA Seventy (notice they changed the titles, from member of the First Quorom of Seventy.

Do any of the Bozos ever get fired? I think the Mission President who set up a polygamist operation in France got removed. A few years ago, I think in Trinidad or another island the MP was released because he was flying young sisters around the islands for extracuricular activities.

I know of a GA who was recalled from his area missions because of malfeasance. It was portrayed as a normal "transfer," but they pulled him out and then replaced him with someone more conventional.

More generally, I think the sort of MP wife whom you describe is probably a thing of the past. Everything is so much more controlled and routinized now than as recently as the 1970s.

Do MPs go thru a training session in a not so secret MPTC?

When I was in the MTC in the start in the 90s I was chosen to go with a group of elders to sing called to serve for the opening of MP training at the COB. I don't know where their training was held but I knew it was in SLC and not Provo because I asked. My Mp was in the audience but I wasn't allowed to see him. We were ushered into a theater singing as we passed an audience of MPs and wives. We stood as a background for Elder Perry to talk and when the meeting was over he greeted each of us. He seemed nice and super tall. We then left the room and got back on the bus for Provo.

They returned a year ago this month. He owned part of a business and sold his portion of the business. They had a huge home. They kept it during the mission and rented it. He had a hard time finding a job when he got back. He is 60 and he needed to work another 10 years supposedly per my aunt. He finally got a job back East and they did sell their house, but I don't think things are all settled where that is concerned. I can't remember what they were waiting for.

My aunt writes me e-mails all the time so I hear all the news. I'm her project. Our whole family is her project, but she communicates with me all the time.

She is my mother's sister and my mom's two siblings' families are over the top TBM. Our family wasn't and isn't. My cousin is sickeningly sweet, but a bitch in reality. None of us like her. Her husband, the MP, is a great guy. I don't know why he married my cousin.

Anyway, he finally started a job in May. They are the blessed family. Their son and his wife left the church the month before they left to be the MP.

cl2, I couldn't imagine blowing up my life or my retirement plans at such a late age, and then having to job hunt at age 60. No way! That's just lunacy. It was made very clear to me once I passed age 50 (and perhaps even earlier,) that if there is a younger person that they can hire who has the same basic credentials, they are going to go for the younger person. At age 60, that's nuts.

Religion can make people do crazy things.

as they have always lived a rather charmed life, he and his wife and kids. I know he struggled with finding a job. He owned part of a big canning company of vegetables and fruit. They weren't hurting for money. I thought he wouldn't have to work after he came back. It made me wonder if they paid their own way.

He actually was kidnapped in Mexico by a drug cartel when he went to see about some farms in Mexico to buy produce from. He is lucky to even be alive. He is a nice guy. He wrote a book about his kidnapping and I read it in one sitting. My TBM daughter read it and she said she skipped over the mormony parts. I was shocked. I read them all as I wanted to know how he was feeling through the entire experience.

It's a ladder to climb.

I actually think my MP was too drunk with Mormon kool-aid. He literally took every lie that has been propagated by the church and swears that all of it is TRUE and then some. He was asked by a curious elder (while serving as MP) if the apostles did indeed see and commune with Jesus.

Holy cow. We had an emergency zone meeting to resolve this doctrinal crisis in the mission. His recipe of resolution was to call out the doubting elder by requiring this poor soul to stand. He then asked if anyone else had concerns about the temple so another 3 to 4 were standing.

He then ripped into these elders for lack of faith, for questioning and criticizing church leaders, for setting a poor example to others. In addition to a grand tongue lashing, they were called up front to push-up their doubts out of their minds. If any elder collapsed, the count was restarted.

And look what was revealed some 20 years later. The apostles when pressed finally admitted that they have never seen or communed with Jesus in the temple. They are only special witnesses of his name. That is all!!!

My MP needs a special ass kicking and then some.

Edit: I became so pissed that I forgot the point. He was called to the 2nd Qof70 and then was tossed back. I don't think he has the temperament to go any higher. He probably still believes that God will cure any disease- AIDS, COVID, MS and Cancer if the right prayer is uttered. Like I said, he believes too much in the hocus-pocus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2023 02:03PM by messygoop.

You have to wonder how many years of abusive mental conditioning it takes for someone to behave in that manner. It's not normal.

summer Wrote:
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> You have to wonder how many years of abusive
> mental conditioning it takes for someone to behave
> in that manner. It's not normal.

Not hard to understand, my 2nd MP is/was a lawyer from Idaho. A mere 20 miles from the Daybell horror/tragedies.

Has anyone heard of an MP being removed from the calling for just generally being an incompetent weiner?

My first MP was sent home. The mission was upside down. He studied the Groberg method and had it fully implemented. It divided the mission into three groups. One group was making full pledge covenants to baptize 30 people every month. These were day baps that originated from street contacting and walking to the nearest swimming pool (at the apartment pool).

The second group fully resisted. They were slackers of this baptize or die attitude. They weren't complete screw-ups as they were trying to find and baptize and teach the way the church taught them to. They were ostracized and accused of slowing the work down.

The third group was in serious trouble. They were horrified that this quick baptizing was not working despite praying, fasting and being super-obedient. Some were so worried about missionary work and their celestial future that they suffered mental breakdowns. About 15 more or less were sent to Salt Lake for evaluation. That got the church's attention.

The ones who went home with the MP were deemed too far gone to be corrected. If zone and district leaders are obsessed with baptizing and nothing else then they went home. Many of them had live in girlfriends and maids. About a third (30 missionaries ) were sent home and most went home honorably despite their dirty deeds.

Messy,

The GA to whom I referred above was indeed Elder Kikuchi, the man who empowered Groberg and then tried to make the system work throughout Japan and other parts of East Asia. The church called him back to SLC--everyone acted as if it wasn't a demotion, but he never regained his prominence and authority--and then replaced a number of MPs who had implemented the Groberg/Kikuchi system.

I am aware of another MP somewhere in Japan years later who tried to resurrect the system. I think his name was something like Munz. In any case, he was never replaced but he hurt a lot of missionaries. Was that your mission or was there another?

What a legacy those men left. . .

I was in Texas about 8 years after the Japan missions debacle.

I had no idea how screwed up my mission was going to be. I didn't realize that my mission letter informing about what to bring, info about the region was prepared by a GA (Rudd) instead of the current (and outgoing MP~ Frost).

It took me over a year in the mission to put all of the pieces together of what the hell had happened. Strange messages etched into walls. Bizarre promises signed to baptize 25 people or promise their souls to Stan

The Japan debacle was 1979-1982, which I believe were Groberg's term as MP. The "Munz" encore was in the late 1980s. You were late 80s too?

I'm sorry you went through that. I presume it was a less insane version of Groberg; in Japan there were fist fights between missionaries and between missionaries and members, people quitting and simply flying home on their own or settling down with local women, a number of missionaries who returned to the States for sojourns in mental hospitals, excommunications of missionaries who challenged the Groberg/Kikuchi system or who had been indulging in wine, women, and song while serving as APs/MAs or senior zone leaders, etc.

I don't know how things could go so wrong without support from above the actual mission, which is why I suspect yours was a somewhat milder form of the paranoid disease that wracked Japan. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know whatever detail you feel comfortable sharing.)

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear you went through such a period. That the church continued to produce wannabe Grobergs after the initial disaster says a lot. In short, they never fixed the sources of the problem because it would have been embarrassing to do so.

LW

I had just survived the MTC where one of my language teachers was sexually assaulted. Only two of us dared to do right and we were stifled by the church leaders. We were told that we did not see anything. As a side note, my mom had already informed me that if I was sent home early, I was not welcomed. I would be homeless as being a missionary mom meant the world to her. Essentially, I started my Texas mission on probation.

At first, I couldn't readily detect that something was amiss. I kept thinking that I had read the Church News incorrectly though. I thought the MP was named Frost. Instead, it was this Idaho lawyer (who I will not name until he passes away).

I ended up discovering little dirty deeds when being dropped off at various missionary apartments~ the Zone Leader trainers often went on their own splits to do whatever they wanted: play basketball, look for girls and go on road trips. You see, this was standard crazy missionary behavior. Not all of it was cleaned up when the new MP came in.

While being dumped at an apartment, you just didn't watch tv (there wasn't one) and wait for them to return 4-6 hours later. So I looked at maps and area books. Every companionship was required to maintain a thick binder with membership lists, investigator records and a detailed daily plan of attack indicating daily goals of people to be contacted, people to be taught and people to be baptized. My mission required this to be presented and SIGNED by the MP every month. (Just to be sure, an area book is not a missionary's personal and private diary- I swear that I never went thru people's personal things).

The name Frost kept coming up as well as these weekly "pledges". I swiped a copy and transcribed the wording of these missionary pledges into my missionary journal. As much as I despised the lawyer for the other crap he put us through, thank god he never made us sign one of these.

As servants of the Lord, Elder _______ and Elder ______ do solemnly swear by witnesses on Earth and angels in Haeven to find, teach and baptize ___(20) children of God this coming week.

And if we do not maintain the fidelity of this week's pledge, then we do hereby acknowledge that we are indeed slothful servants who have surrendered our hearts and souls to Satan.

Similar writings were carved into apartment walls, written on the sides of refrigerators, and one apartment had the words glued onto the mirrors. These pledges were part of the mission motto Baptize! Baptize! Baptize! or don't desire to seek the celestial kingdom. And there was a special mission logo which was prominently displayed on all Area Books. The new MP had new ones printed (and another set would be printed again as the mission dropped the reactivate members part) which covered up the previous one. I almost got one but an elder saw it and took it from me. He said- You have no business looking at this. And he proceeded to tear it up.

It took a long time, but finally one elder opened up about what the heck had been going on. The mission was out of control. The MP was pushing baptism numbers. Wannabe mission leaders were doing outrageous baptismal numbers. The pressure was mission wide to baptize or risk spiritual death. Large numbers were being recorded. As I previously mentioned two-thirds conformed and one-third rebelled and were ostracized for not gaining the baptismal spirit.

I had a difficult time getting elders/sisters to open up about their experiences serving with the previous MP. Most denied that anything unusual had occurred. A few threatened me with violence if I refused to stop asking questions. Others gaslighted me as to what I read and saw. There was strong denial that this had happened.

Many were sent home and about 15 lost their minds and were sent for mental health evaluations. If you can imagine it, it was reportedly happening: law of chastity violations, word of wisdom problems, going into Mexico (not allowed from Texas), going to gulf coast beaches, going to movies, bars and dances, road trips.

And then there were two elders and two sisters. They decided to take their Baptize Baptize Baptize to a whole new level. This foursome got the missionary logo (a triangle) tattooed on their upper arms. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen a real picture of them smiling showing off their upper arm tattoos.

Messy, I've heard these stories before--different nuances but the same basic experiences.

That makes me very sad.

>> Bizarre promises signed to baptize 25 people or promise their souls to Stan

What?!

My BFF went to the Laredo, Texas mission in the mid-80s. Boy does she have horror stories from her mission. One of her companions threw her against a wall and was sent home.

You really had a hell of a mission, Messy

heartbroken Wrote:
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> My BFF went to the Laredo, Texas mission in the
> mid-80s. Boy does she have horror stories from her
> mission. One of her companions threw her against a
> wall and was sent home.
>
> You really had a hell of a mission, Messy

Boy, you have no idea how close you are. Only I was there a few years after that. The Spanish ward had some 1800+ members with about 110 attending on a "good" Sunday. I spent a good chunk of my time in the streets of Laredo looking for addresses that did not exist and people who did not exist. We were trying to clean up ward rosters from years of meet and dunk baptisms.

I think you have to apply and hope to be accepted. Helps to know how to ride a horse. I think they give you the uniform and a horse though. I'm not sure if you have to be Canadian.

**giggle**

Giggle?? We need less giggling and more F-bombs out of you, summer!

Mission Presidents are called, they don't apply. When GAs visit stakes, they interview the SP, and ask about who in his stake could be a MP. They report this back to SLC at the end of each visit in a trip report. So SLC has a big spread sheet with all these candidates, that list their occupations, children and ages, etc.

MPs serve from July 1st for 3 years. They are called in Dec/Jan, so they have 6 months to get ready. They now spend 2 weeks in the MTC (husband and wife) for training.