The wife had family coming through town, and we went to dinner with them.

They are multi-generational farmers. In the parking lot of the restauraunt I mentioned how I hated my 2 weeks in the Salt Lake Mission home before they shipped me out. The mother placed her hands over the ears of her oldest boy, and went "la la la, don't give him any ideas". I just looked at her like, what the *&*)$. So I calmly replied that I was simply providing an experience, negative or not, it happened.

But what really threw me for a loop, was her behavior. Standing there and treating her son like a 2 year old, and it was obvious she was absorbed into the Mormon image thing. None of the wife’s family has any idea that I no longer take the church or religion seriously. Then I looked at her son as she mentioned he was almost 18. He had a baby face, not even a whisker starting to show, about 5"8", no more than 140 pounds. Plus it was clear he was oblivious to anything outside of the rural farm he grew up on, and the church he attended weekly. The closest town to the farm is no more than a few thousand in population, and the big event of the year is the county fair. Maybe if the church sent the kid to a rural farm area he would do ok, but in a challenging urban environment or 3rd world living conditions, he will be eaten alive. And then it occurred to me there is no way I would send my kid on a mission (or anywhere else for that matter) without proper exposure to various cultures\people. My parents did this BS mission shock treatment to me, and I did not care for the waste of two years of my life. I was disgusted by the whole thought of what the church was doing to this kid, and mom was no better.

Parents, who have a clue, do not send their culture\experience lacking kids to the care of a church who expects you to pay for everything, but have no say to their care and upkeep.

I think your concerns for this boy are valid.

On my mission, I saw the effects on a few of the “Elders” who had grown up somewhat isolated in small towns, and we started our missions at the ripe old age of 19. I only know of one who gave up and was sent home, but I witnessed several people struggle. I knew one guy from Idaho who told me that he had only seen one black person in his life before his mission. One of my companions referred to Provo as a “big city.” I spent the majority of my mission in Bangkok, and “One night in Bangkok and the tough guys tumble.” Bangkok is a unique city, but it’s not unique when it comes to presenting a challenge to an unprepared teenager who has lived a somewhat isolated life.

A careful matching of youth to mission would help, but we all know how that goes. I think that 19 was a better age for the young men to go out. It gave them a chance to get some schooling or life experience under their belts before being flung to the wider world.

Amen and Amen to your last line, Silence is Golden.

I am probably the exception to the rule. I was 19 but a very young nineteen and I looked 15. I was raised in a farming county that was all Mormon and had no idea of the real world except for bits I got from Life magazine. I was an extreme introvert and loner and socially inept.

But, being sent to a place on my mission that was the opposite of anything I had ever known was the best thing that ever happened to me. Last thing I needed was a soft landing and any coddling at all. My eyes got opened fast. Luckily for me I liked what I saw. Culture shock was the charge I needed. Thank you Buenos Aires.

I suppose the same experience would break some kids. Some 18 year olds are able and some need more under the belt. But what I see is Mission Presidents who are as naive and unprepared as the 18 year olds exacerbating the problem and causing the damage.

And parents who will sacrifice their children in order to keep their own facade Mormon Bright are dangerous. That was my mother on some level.

My mother told me a few years ago that my own Dad who was the bishop when I left said he didn't think I should go. I appreciated knowing that. As much as he vehemently believed the church he was one of the good guys. I always appeared weaker than I ever was though I have no idea why as I was always made of steel inside.

I went on automatic. Raised to do it and did it when the tine came. My mission made me start thinking. That didn't go well for Mormonism.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My mission made me start
> thinking. That didn't go well for Mormonism.

Oh, this made me laugh so much, D.

It's all so useless and sad though, eh?

Except for the avenue it presents for mishies to get a wider view of the world than Mormonism gives them, despite the confines of the mission.

I remember a few who expressed surprise that life outside wasn't what the church had told them. The world isn't full of pitiful doomed heathens after all. What a concept.

Nobody should go on missions.

See the recent Mormons Stories podcast with John Larsen on the Mormon superiority complex. It explains it all.

Where I’m from 18yo’s are considered adults, free to consent to sex or carry a weapon of war and all the ammo they can carry.
To say that they are too young to handle questions that make them uncomfortable is coddling them. Calling grown adults ‘kids’ is setting them up for failure.

The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure https://a.co/d/beyCKOI

Seriously, though, "coddling" exists because it has a purpose; even ghawd does the occasional coddling.

There are physical maladies that most of us would agree merit the coddling of 'handicap parking.'

Immaturity (which is my personal handicap) may be controversial in terms of being awarded preferred parking, but it definitely makes me feel better when people understand that expecting to act like an "adult" (gad, I hope I never do!!) is asking for too much.

I find amusing to consider how "adults" who sell merchandise or provide services have no problem coddling other "adults" who aren't really adults as described by The Cat. It might be said that tolerance is a sellers' market, and is quite different than yakking it up with the boys down at the local watering hole.

IMO Mormon missionaries are not just what they pretend to be, naïve, innocent kids brainwashed to do the bidding of their spiritual leaders. Ignorance is no excuse 23yrs into the Google Age.

Avoiding momentarily the intervening "whoosh" and "straight man" temptations, I must say that your immaturity is not a handicap at all. In fact, it is arguably the best club in your golf bag.

At least that is the rumor Hie bruited about before he was disappeared.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To say that they are too young to handle questions
> that make them uncomfortable is coddling them.
> Calling grown adults ‘kids’ is setting them up
> for failure.

An article in NPR states that while young people are recognized as adults at age 18 “emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don’t reach full maturity until the age of 25”.

“Most of the privileges and responsibilities of adulthood are legally granted by the age of 18. That’s when you can vote, enlist in the military, move out on your own, but is that the true age of maturity? A growing body of science says, no. That critical parts of the brain involved in decision-making are not fully developed until years later at age 25 or so.”

Dr. Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist was asked “Is this idea that the brains of 18 year olds aren’t fully developed a matter of settled science?”

Her complex response was “Yes”.

She adds that “brain scans show clearly that the brain is not fully finished developing until about age 25”.

She continues: “…the changes that happen between 18 and 25 are a continuation of the process that starts around puberty, and 18 year olds are about halfway through that process. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully developed. That’s the part of the brain that helps you to inhibit impulses and to plan and organize your behavior to reach a goal.”

Dr. Aamodt says “It would be nice if we had a little more flexibility to distinguish the two in the legal system” (i.e. “which 18 year olds are competent to go out into the world and handle things by themselves” and which are not).

Her interview was in a different context but I think the principles widely apply:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708



> The Coddling of the American Mind:

I wouldn't conclude that giving 18 year olds room to grow, literally and figuratively, is unnecessary.

Leaving home at 18-19 to go on a mission, even though ostensibly supervised by an adult (although not individually or constantly) can be a huge challenge for someone who goes right from their parents' close control to the mission field. First time to live in their own space (although with a companion), first time to handle their own money (even if of limited funds), first time relatively unsupervised for portions of every day, first time trying out their wings as fledgling adults, many with little life experience beforehand and all their days mapped out for them 24/7 so they're still not growing into adulthood in any way that can be deemed natural.

Maybe it works for baby birds - getting pushed out of the nest to either fly or die - but not so much for adolescents. Especially as they're expected to go out and proselytize, not much of a welcome activity in many areas or with most people anywhere.


>Mormon missionaries are not just what they pretend to be, naïve, innocent kids brainwashed to do the bidding of their spiritual leaders. Ignorance is no excuse 23yrs into the Google Age.

I think they can be pretty inexperienced in many ways, at least the ones I met.

Maybe many of them didn't get a chance to participate in the Google Age. No computers, no permission to use one, close supervision if on one, somebody checking their browsers to see what they're looking at, etc.

I wouldn't make assumptions or harshly judge people based on what could be a misconception or an unfair conclusion.

How many of us knew at 18 how to navigate the choppy waters of life? I give them a bit of a pass. There's a well conceived, purposeful plan to snare them for life and it's put into motion the day they are born, or before. That's a bit of a big handicap to start out with.

NG said,

> I wouldn't make assumptions or
> harshly judge people based on
> what could be a misconception
> or an unfair conclusion.

This is why you are you, and The Cat is The Cat; he has the strength to find and point out weaknesses ... it has something to do with 9/11.

Swing that club, Mr. The Dog!

I hitch hiked across America, Europe and Africa when I was 18, solo, before my mission. My daughter and her husband were killing bad guys on the side of the world with drones at 18. Pretty sure 18yo grown ass men, not kids, can handle tough questions they get as a CULT recruiter knocking on my door trying to exploit people.

I follow the heretic’s motto,

“I cause CogDis, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do after all.” Ayan Hirsi Ali



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2023 09:06AM by schrodingerscat.

"Ho ho ho!"
--Santa Claus

I have to say I agree with your grown ass analysis. Imagine how many of us would be barred from doing what we want if full mental competence were a prerequisite.

The part of the brain that doesn't develop completely until the age of 25 is the prefrontal cortex, which is the faculty responsible for impulse control and judicious reasoning.

So what?
That doesn’t make them ‘kids’ who require coddling.
If they are old enough to fight your battles on the other side of the world, they’re adult enough to answer serious questions about the abusive fraudulent CULT they signed up to defend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2023 10:03AM by schrodingerscat.

Face it, Gladys, his post-frontal cortex is bigger than your bust-frontal cortex will ever be.

Some people rely disproportionately on their prefrontal cortexes, others on their cerebellums. There are reportedly also people who whose brain stems run the show.

And then there are those who are in constant danger of forgetting to breathe.

I was replying to Nightingale, Sir The Cat. She has a fully developed brain.

One of my grandkids, also in Washington state, is 18 y.o., and was injured playing high school varsity sports.

She had to make her own doctor appointments, her parents weren't allowed to do it for her. Also the parents couldn't find out the results of the dr's diagnosis or the prescribed treatment.

Guess the parents are only allowed to carry and pay the insurance and to keep their mouth shut.

That's exactly right. Is there a problem with that? Their child is an adult and has a right to medical privacy. If a parent wants to know their medical condition, they can take it up with the child.

I had to deal with the same thing when a parent called to find out how their dear darling freshman was doing in college. Fortunately, that very rarely happened, but I had to tell them to ask their child, I could not divulge more than that they were in fact enrolled at the university. And like HIPAA, the scholastic FERPA law had very serious teeth.

    I won't detail the current problems regarding Adult Onset Syndrome; we're all too drearily aware of how much eye-rolling daily life currently requires of us.

    I'll simply begin hoping that Biblical science, in conjunction with computer-generated Artificial Sorcery, will soon present mankind with the means to answer all the questions humans are asked while, at the same time, not being too snotty about it.

    The "Innocence of Utes" should never be in question, and if the appropriate authorities can scan your personal 'some-are-sapient' chip, innocence, or lack thereof, will be on display, and you will be treated according to your merits.  Plus, the peanut-allergic will not be offered Snickers bars.

    Our fore-festers could not even imagine the Paradise that awaits our co-descendants!  I'd weep, but I have no ayes, only neighs.




(Thanks!  I feel a lot better now!)

You plagiarizing Judic again? That was a little too cleverly brilliant.


"Our fore-festers could not even imagine the Paradise that awaits our co-descendants! I'd weep, but I have no ayes, only neighs."

That line is one for the books. Hats off. Deep bow.

      
  

Get a room, you two.

Exactly.
Should 18yo ‘kids’ be going to college?
I mean, there’s drinking and sex and drug parties there!
How will they ever survive if we coddle them for their entire lives?

"He was an officer whose men
would follow him anywhere,
but only out of curiosity."

    --Anonymous

Summer gave us a great thought (to match Mish with Assignment);

I'm guessing the only influence that's happened is the decision
'foreign or domestic'?

I'm thinking that high-income, high-influence parents get first choices which might be S. America, France/Switzerland, perhaps England G.B., etc, the warm, friendly countries.

Mormonism is a VERY hard product to sell over here as any discussion of religion in public is frowned on - and most people aren't interested.

If you are old enough for Military Service or Olympic & Pro Sports you are old enough for a missionary tour.

No one thing is right for all.

At least if a young person joins the military, or goes off to live in a college dorm, there is some assurance that the kid will be housed and fed properly, and have access to medical care. But how many times have we heard about Mormon missions where housing is inadequate or even hazardous, medical care is discouraged, and there is not enough of an allowance to get proper food?

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At least if a young person joins the military, or
> goes off to live in a college dorm, there is some
> assurance that the kid will be housed and fed
> properly, and have access to medical care. But how
> many times have we heard about Mormon missions
> where housing is inadequate or even hazardous,
> medical care is discouraged, and there is not
> enough of an allowance to get proper food?

I have made mention of this a few times on this and on other forums, but I honestly believe that my son had it better while going through Army basic training at Fort Benning than missionaries get. As you mention, he had adequate housing, proper meals, and access to medical care. After the first few weeks, he was given weekend liberty, where he could be a normal 18/19 year old, hooking up with his girlfriend who had driven to spend the weekend with him, going to a club or a movie. He was going through basic during Christmas and New Year, so he was able to get two weeks off to spend with his mother (we are divorced) and siblings. During their daily and weekly chores in the barracks, their drill instructor allowed them to play music of their choosing. Plus the military guys get paid while going through basic training. Missionaries don't get any of that, plus they have to pay for the experience.

Military members, while on active duty, can also communicate with their loved ones as much as they want to on their downtime.

Maybe I had a different story. I was drinking & smoking by fifteen, a full time job at sixteen, had my own place by seventeen, and had done other things. I had travelled internationally and spoke more than one language.

In contrast, I knew some boys who'd never had a girlfriend by twenty, lived with their parents into their thirties (which I've nothing against for financial reasons) and most of whose life experience seem to come from television.

When I was in YSA in my mid twenties I was shocked at how juvenile the activities were. I had enough life experience for five of them.

My main problem with Mormon missions is that they are too regimented. But I do see them turn boys into men. I just don't agree with most of the crap that goes along with them.

I have apprecaited all the comments and observations that have been presented. This is what it is all about, the ability to present ones view, and argue\comment it out.

In general it the mission obligation and what it does to a young person that I found distasteful. Going out into the world at the age of 18 and finding your own way is how to grow and learn.

But a LDS missions main goal is to keep you in the fold, and paying a lifetime of tithing, and praying and obeying. With phantom rewards that cause you to lead a life of being told what to do.

Sure on my mission I met people, but it was structured with its little white rule book. I only did what I was told, I had no friends, I was stuck with some awful companions, and my final MP was a jerk. We were not listened to, our mental heath was ignored, and my medical needs were kept to a minimum. You spent lots of time hoping someone would invite you to dinner. You were berated every 6 months at Zone Conference for not being spiritual enough, and baptizing. I lived where I was told, and had limited funds, and spent hours on my parents dime trying to meet goals that were unobtainable. For the most part it was boring as hell, and guilt ridden.

I came home, got married and spent two decades trying to make everybody happy. I did not get the chance to run the gauntlet of youth and sow some oats that many did in those 2 or 3 years between 18 and 21 when you learn your hardest lessons.

If one desires to obtain a higher education that is the starting point of a successful career, then they do not do it by attending Oral Roberts University.

If one wishes to expand their knowledge of the world and experience all it offers in their youth, one does not go on a LDS Mission.

Silence is Golden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sure on my mission I met people, but it was
> structured with its little white rule book. I
> only did what I was told, I had no friends, I was
> stuck with some awful companions, and my final MP
> was a jerk. We were not listened to, our mental
> heath was ignored, and my medical needs were kept
> to a minimum. You spent lots of time hoping
> someone would invite you to dinner. You were
> berated every 6 months at Zone Conference for not
> being spiritual enough, and baptizing. I lived
> where I was told, and had limited funds, and spent
> hours on my parents dime trying to meet goals that
> were unobtainable. For the most part it was
> boring as hell, and guilt ridden.

You really nailed it.

My issue was that the church created highly structured system of rules and hierarchy but offered no assistance if the person(s)- you could end up in a group (missionary district where all the people were too rule conforming or non-compliant)- didn't like you.

I hope they still don't do this, but in the MTC I was assigned to a companion alphabetically. Elder Hellbent didn't like me, Elder Goop. He had a disability (which I found no fault with, but he was used to getting things his way- all the time!). There was no compromise on his part. The moment he was fully attired- shoes and suit coat on- he left the MTC dorm room. I grew weary from trying to chase him down the stairwells to catch up to him. They never stopped him or he pointed to his disability. I'm a big guy and I was physically detained- twice for walking around the MTC without my companion.

This was brought to the attention of the only "church leaders" that you could speak with, the assigned MTC branch presidents. They offered neither sympathy nor support. It was 100% my fault. They wouldn't even bring in my assigned companion to get us on the same page, basic communication. I was told- You need to work it out. Pray and fast. All you need to do is to set aside your expectations and compromise.

I became very depressed. It was a long 2 years. Sometimes you were assigned to someone semi-friendly. I served with a lot of back stabbing jerks. One companion didn't like losing an argument. He actually said - Get the fuck out of the apartment.

And I left for a couple of hours and went to a park. I let him cool down. Then he played a little game of not letting me in the apartment. As soon as I opened the door, he slammed it. Then he used the chain lock. I had to call another set of elders with a car. I spent the night on their floor.

I ended up being assigned into a threesome with the district leader and my companion was assigned to the zone leaders.

The whole mess was my fault. My companion lied and spread a viscous rumor that I had sexually assaulted him. I only told other missionaries the truth- my companion didn't want to stop teaching a particular investigator. A woman whose chest was size 65 triple E. And he only wanted to call on her when her husband was away working. That led to a horrendous fight/argument. I didn't think it was proper to visit (and she was not committing to baptism).

In the end, I went through a terrible interview with the MP. And I was still on probation from the MTC.

I was 21 when I went on my mission. I'd lived on my own and had summer jobs three years prior to my mission. I could handle being away from home and taking care of myself, but nothing had prepared me for what I would have to deal with as a missionary. I was not prepared for the mental strain of constant rejection. I was not prepared for the tedium of knocking on doors for ten hours a day. I was not prepared for feeling like the salvation of everyone I encountered rested heavily on my shoulders. I was not prepared to spend 24/7 with another person constantly by my side. I was not prepared for almost no contact with loved ones for 18 months.

Half way through my mission I became mentally burned out. I was having night terrors. The mission president sent me to a doctor who told me to take a couple of weeks off. I told him it wasn't an option. That was the end of that. I just continued with my mission.

I think it's good for 18 year olds to leave home, have new experiences and learn how to be independent. It's not good to force them into unhealthy and unnecessary experiences that do not contribute to their growth or add value to their lives, but mostly contribute to depression and other mental health problems. It's not good for anyone - not 18 year olds or 30 year olds.

with limited exceptions, Mormonism is a scab on the body politic; Mormonism does provide a Safe Haven for some folks of a few different varieties.

People are social animals, that's a great part of the reason I joined at about 16 when my parents were divorcing; Viet Nam and the possibility of being drafted were the reasons I left a career @ 21 y.o. I could have easily retired at by now, but OOPS! I greatly respect those who served in Viet Nam or other places, I sorta wanted to join the CG instead of being drafted.

Due to where I was working (same occupation as before my Mish)I met my now former whom I loved then & love now too.


If one takes away the factors that make Mormonism undesirable (lies, authoritarianism, lack of financial & policy transparency), Nothing is left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2023 01:03AM by GNPE.

Another cousin's kid got his mission call. He is called to Peru. He is homeschooled and only 18 years old. On the bright side, his parents got permission from the mission president that they can fly to Japan and pick up his brother from his mission. Yes my cousin has 7 children 2 are on a mission right now. One is in Japan the other is in Utah. The missionary who is serving in Utah is surprised that the lds members are hardly helping the missionaries. The missionary in Japan appears to be having a good time while the missionary in Utah seems to be struggling. I have never served a mission but I think I could have not stayed 18 months with strict rules. The Mormon church in Germany is not as hardcore as it is in Utah. You had to get married civilly before you could get married in the temple. So for nonmember friends and family, they saw the wedding and whether or not you got sealed afterward in an lds temple was not so much hyped up. The small branch that I attended had no early morning seminary. We did seminary every Friday after school. It was a seminary workbook that we needed to do during the week and the seminary teacher checked it every Friday. My guess is about half of the married women in the brach were married to a nonmember. My mom was/ is one of them. The branch since has become a ward. The women who were/ are married to nonmembers formed a big bond with each other and go on temple trips together about 1-2 per year. When I resigned from the lds church in 2013 that information spread like wildfire in the ward. Again the women who are married to nonmember husbands were a great support system for my mom because several of them had children already resign and knew what my mom was going through.

"The small branch that I attended had no early morning seminary."

This doesn't surprise me because German schools start VERY early in the morning - 7 AM, think. If I'm wrong, Subeam, please correct me.

German schools start at 0730 am.

Thanks.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> German schools start at 0730 am.

And that loss of an extra hour's sleep cost a whole nation its sense of irony.

Naw. If you can go to war at 18 you can serve a mission. My main beef is 18 year olds are treated like children. We expect them to be available for military service but we don’t allow them to drink. If the 18 year olds are immature snowflakes it means society and the parenting are the failure.

Why is it that it takes longer for humans to mature into adults as we become more technologically advanced?
Did ‘Smart Phones’ make us dumber and less capable of being independent adults?

https://www.aviva.com/newsroom/news-releases/2017/05/uk-number-of-children-aged-25-34-living-with-parents-grows-37-in-10-years-17767/

First, let's stipulate that *nobody* should be serving a mission.

Beyond that, I think that the original age for decades of 19 was better, but I see no overwhelming reason why 18 year olds can't go. Sure, some are immature. Having a rigidly enforced companion rule, a pretty strict budget and heavily structured and regimented routine keeps the clueless out of a lot of trouble.

And of course as the aphorism goes, "you are only young once, but you can be immature forever." I know of some senior citizens with serious impulse control problems. coughclassifieddocscough. So you can't just wait until everyone is mature. That's not going to happen.

I also think the dangers of a mission are vastly overblown. Whenever there is a report of someone dying on their mission, y'all talk like they would not have died except for having gone on a mission.

Which of course is nonsense. Young people who do not go on missions die too. In fact, the death rate in the US 2021 for 15-24 year olds is 89 per 100,000. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db456.htm , table 3

So for 60,000 young proselytizing missionaries, that would scale to 53 deaths per year if their death rate were the same as the average American young person. I'm sure the death rate is even higher for males, considering that they suffer from testosterone poisoning and all, but the CDC article did not break down the mortality rates by sex.

That'd be a missionary death slightly more than once a week on average, if they matched the US average death rate.

Nowhere near that many missionaries die, so it is safer to be on a mission than to be a generic American teen.

Yes, that is somewhat misleading because drug overdoses and gun deaths would probably be less likely among LDS teens, but a fair number of the deaths of generic US young adults are accidents, heart conditions, aneurisms and things like that. When I was teaching, I happened to be in the office next to a faculty member who was on the committee that sent condolence letters to family and flowers to the funeral of students that died while attending the university. The numbers bounced around from year to year, as did the cause of death, but it was typically about 4 or 5 per 10,000 students per academic year. That's lower than the national numbers, but not a lot lower.

The alternative to going on a mission and dying from disease or accident is not not going on a mission and not dying by disease or accident. The alternative is probably more accidents, less disease, and a higher likelihood of dying if you don't go on a mission.

>First, let's stipulate that *nobody* should be serving a mission.

See my comment above.

I wish the post control salespeople could increase their age limit as well. Oh wait, I think many are RMs.

‘Should’ anybody serve ‘missions’ for any cult, no matter the age?
I don’t want people knocking on my door selling me some useless thing I don’t want, but there’s no way to stop them. Free country and all.

I live in a private community, and they're not allowed here. They have been mostly good about honoring that.