Why? Why on earth do the Africans want Mormonism? Why oh why did they convert to Christianity at all? Why the cultural appropriation?

They had their own religion for centuries. Why drop it like a hot potato?

"In Yoruba religion, the divinities are called Orisa (Orisha- Santería; orixa- Candomblé). It is generally believed that the divinities have the attributes or qualities or characteristics of the Supreme Being, and they are in consequence, offsprings of God."

But they trade in Orisha for this Jesus at the drop of a hat? And Mormon Jesus to boot. Did they just like the gospel tunes better? Is the CK the new Heaven and they need to stay on trend?

Is this all for the same reason as most of the world adopting Western Dress? It's just easier to deal with, and, easier to fit in. Not be seen as old fashioned, out of date? Wanting to be part of the "in crowd". I really don't get it.


Men are NOT that they might have joy. Men are that they definitely will have insecurities and need to appropriate a security blanket.

Africans & people of other 3rd World Developing Countries should not be donating $ / resources to foreign places, they should circulate those resources at home or not outside their regions.

They have the authority to end sending $ to SLC COB & other destinations too.

It's a shame. They have their own culture. I've seen enough of religions going around pushing their religion everywhere.

It's not like the Mormons are going there to learn about and incorporate African cultural practices.

Mormons look for the must vulnerable areas to push their BS. It's a religious tactic we can't seem to overcome, century after century.

+++++'

I guess it's up to Africans to do what THEY want!

Gee, I wonder what vulnerable people who need resources (the people the church targets) will want.

Well, of course they can do what they want.

But the point of my post is WHY? And what does that say about humans.

Maybe they think the White Man's ghawd pays better?

If they compare the effectiveness of the White Man's ghawd with the African ghawds as to which do better in terms of their adherents' prosperity, it's a no-brainer outcome.

How many of the African ghawds are paying good money to jobless natives to walk around in white shirts and ties just to chat people up?!

But when the Christian sects get around to being compared, mormonism is likely to be judged second rate...  Or am I just projecting my personal biases?

Mormons are relative newcomers to Africa. Christian missionaries have been there for more than 150 years, many devoting their entire working lives to the various countries that make up the continent. They operate schools, colleges, and hospitals which are a major focus besides conversions.

But why were the Africans disposed to giving up their religion and adopting one from the newly arrived strangers. Simply because of economics?

Nothing will help the missionaries and members when African warlords decide to attack and kill, pillage and rape and take slaves. Young kids ordered to rape their mothers - or be killed. If one refuses his mother/sisters/family are first killed, disemboweled, tortured, set on fire & then he is shot.
The next kid up does the rape - after that these kids are soldiers of the warlord forever. No quarter given to those targeted. Mormons don't stand a chance.

The Mormon missions are in places like Nigeria, Ghana, the DR Congo, and South Africa. None of those are countries with significant warlord problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2023 05:43PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mormon missions are in places like Nigeria,
> Ghana, the DR Congo, and South Africa. None of
> those are countries with significant warlord
> problems.

None of these are good examples, except maybe Ghana. Northern Nigeria does have warlords like Boko Haram. DRC is notoriously unstable, and its government barely functions outside the capital. South Africa doesn't have classic warlords but does have massive organized crime problems.

> None of these are good examples, except maybe
> Ghana. Northern Nigeria does have warlords like
> Boko Haram.

Boko Haram's activities were almost all in the northeastern state of Borno and hence easily avoidable. The rest of the country has conflict between the three major ethnic groups, but they don't rise to the level of warlordism. The bigger threat to missionaries would be street crime, which of course has nothing to do with warlords.


---------------
> DRC is notoriously unstable, and its
> government barely functions outside the capital.

Noticeably absent from that sentence is any reference to warlords, which was the topic of the discussion.


------------------
> South Africa doesn't have classic warlords but
> does have massive organized crime problems.

Thank you for conceding my point with regard to South Africa as you just did with the DRC. I appreciate your concurrence.

The Africans are playing the cards they have been dealt. If some church gave you access to education and contacts that would better you life, you might play that card.

Anyways it’s not going to amount to much. China is who’s taking over Africa and they will screw the Africans in the long run just like the Europeans screwed them.

I hear Jerusalem bells a-ringin'
Roman Cavalry choirs are singing
Be my mirror, my sword and shield
My missionaries in a foreign field
For some reason, I can't explain
I know Saint Peter won't call my name
Never an honest word
But that was when I ruled the world

Earworm time

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mx6rISbf68E

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why? Why on earth do the Africans want Mormonism?
> Why oh why did they convert to Christianity at
> all? Why the cultural appropriation?

Christianity has been in Africa longer than Northern Europe, let alone the Anericas. Ethiopia has some of the oldest Bibles in the world dating back nearly 1500 years. Egypt has a Christian tradition which predates Islam.

There are rumors that the Ark of the Covenant is closely guarded in Ethiopia. Not by the "top men" of "Indiana Jones".

I'm all for Christian spirituality in Africa. I don't mind it displacing beliefs that cause things like the Rwandan genocide.

As much as I hate to admit, Mormons work like mad dogs and Englishmen. That work ethic built a rich, if stingy, church.

Who knows? Maybe the shortfall of eligible husbands for all the single white TBMs in Utah can be filled by worthy members in Africa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2023 02:59AM by bradley.

Bradley, European Christians have produced at least as much genocide as African animists and Muslims.

While it is true (see above) that there were early Christian influences in northeastern Africa going back to the Roman empire, Christianity really didn't spread throughout the whole of the continent until its colonization by the Europeans. Beyond the gullibility of some of the African populations, I suspect that many Africans, like many native Americans that Christopher Columbus and his ilk ran into when Europeans "discovered" the American continents, accepted Christianity at the end of a gun barrel. "I'll let you live if you agree to become Christians" is probably at the root of the Christian entry in to the African continent.

We know how they spread Christianity throughout the American civilizations, which was not exactly friendly or in the native culture's best interests. I see no reason they didn't do the same in Africa.

Christianity was their excuse to pillage resources or basically invade, pretending they had God's approval. The urge to turn everyone Christian was strong. Compared to some of the native religious traditions, Christianity was more virulent.

I may search for a talk I listened to a few years ago and link it here. An African liberal Christian minister spoke on how Christian missionaries and the takeover of some countries governments, such as Uganda, by Christian fanatics (mainly from the USA), have done more destruction to African than many of its internal wars.

David Livingstone with a gun? Who would have thought.

Do Africans desire to go to Heaven after they die similarly to Western religious people (with exceptions) do?

Do they expect something in return (temporal or spiritual) for sending their $ to SLC -ChurchCo?

Will African 'investigators' learn or be told about the curse of darkness, Cain, etc.?

Those are facts to be learned if they care; if they don't care, Mormonism has a better chance there, regardless of 'Warlords' or other matters.

Maybe Mormons will image a non-caucasian Jesus presentation - imagery for them, and lean toward native - indigenous local Bps & SPs too, who knows?

Mormonism does only a mediocre job of converting Christians to Mormonism, I think of converting Africans (internet access?) could be about the same as converting Buddhists in Tibet, but who knows?

If annual baptisms fall below 200,000 per year the sheeple along the Mormondom corridor of Arizona to Idaho will have more wonderment on what's going on. What the Church can do in Africa, and almost nowhere else, is follow the pattern of the 1980s (Chile, Phillipines, Peru, and a few other places) in a quiet manner. That's when there was all sorts of "unchristlike" activities going on with baseball baptisms, kiddie dunking, etc. all over the world & the Brethren really did try to reign this in & it resulted in so many of these places seeing their baptism numbers down to a third or less as the mission leaders cracked down.

All they need to do to manufacture 200,000+ baptisms per year is put in place some quiet program in isolated areas where do the manufacturing. Such deception, even in the 2023 internet era, could work for decades.

One idea I thought of was to setup a program of CES coordinators whose job was to go setup seminaries/institutes in very isolated villages & to recruit missionaries in Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, South Africa, and other countries to work as these coordinators. Each coordinator would be called as a District President & report directly to some handler in some satellite office of the Area office. These handlers would simply be trainers & process/paperwork handlers. They'd get private 1:1 training on their duties and then do 1:1 training with these coordinators. The coordinators would be working as "independent contractor" and bonus eligible where they get bonuses for every branch president that gets hired + every new convert that signs up for Seminary/Institute.

The key to getting the baptisms would be those bonuses. How it could be kept under wraps for decades would be through hiring the right people (i.e. looking for people who are Spirit-savvy, not tech-savvy), keeping the paperwork/processes simple, following the processes strictly, and keeping the real dirty work at a very far distance. These coordinators would be the only ones having contact with the branch presidents & its these branch presidents who would be filling out the paperwork & submitting to the coordinators. These coordinators would not have any ties to Utahans, any LDS relatives, and not be internet-savvy & become very incentivized to keep everything hush-hush. In the satellite offices the trainers would be isolated from each other & likewise not have close ties to anyone in the worldwide church.

Suppose you have 4 satellite offices with 5 trainers each over 20 regional coordinators apiece. If each regional coordinator manufactures 250 numbers per month then you could have 100,000 numbers manufactured per month. They only need about a tenth of that amount now to achieve the goal they'd want to maintain.

So, I'd guess they'd have 3 such offices in 3 separate Areas, 12 trainer/handler total, these 12 all work under some admin manager that reports directly to some Apostle & that Apostle is just one of a small handful in-the-know. If each trainer has 15 regional coordinators under them then that's 180 total, and about 100 as a goal for each regional coordinator (and their network of phantom branches) & you'll easily maintain 10,000 per month.

They could do plenty of rotation of districts as they hire around 10 marginal newbie RM's each month and close out their districts when they quit or get canned & just keep it all quiet. Every once in a while they might get some former Zone Leader sneak in who really has a testimony and they just don't seem to have enough faith to get 100 honest converts per month and they don't get the big paydays of the bonus programs. In such cases they'd just quietly remove them from the program when they don't produce numbers. At the same time some other guys will get wise to how it works and just fill out the paperwork as they were trained, watch the bonus checks flow in, and make adjustments as needed. For example, if they are given a goal of 100 new converts signing up for Seminary each month & they report 200 then their Handler could tell them it looks fishy & that one of the Brethren would like to come take a tour of their branches in a few months to check it out & how would they like that. In such cases they'd figure out that they'd better stay with the program and get their numbers back to an expected range.

So, knowing that a game like this is possible is why I think its laughable to look at LDS inc stats on membership, especially convert baptisms. Yeah its always possible that they aren't playing some game like this. But look at what they did with finances using Ensign Peak Avisors.

Stop giving them ideas.

If you added an "F word" or at least a "bloody," we'd pay more attention.

I get what you are saying but you are overthinking it. Why not just say we baptized 332,677 people this year. No one is going to know the difference. They can make up and say whatever they want since they provide no evidence of their claims.

What evidence can be deduced (butts in seats in local congregations) numbers of wards and stakes in various areas, all seem to indicate that their numbers don't add up anyway.

It's all part of the Last Days when all of the brown people are supposed to eventually turn white. The church is doing its part. Now they just need a pipeline to BYU to get the racial mixing Brigham Young was so fond of.

Follow the money. Africa is becoming more and more wealthy. Anytime there's tithing to collect, you'll find Mormon missionaries trying to convert people.

'What is it about Mormonism that attracts African converts in select African populations who have their own religious traditions, including in some cases a previously adopted version of Christianity?'

COMMENT: This strikes me as a question about human psychology coupled with general principles of sociology as applied to religious trends and religious institutions.

The African converts to Mormonism, however impressive, remain a statistically insignificant minority given the entire populations where the people are being proselyted. This initial success is explained by the numbers of scope of the missionary effort targeting them, the conversion strategy involved, including the economic and social benefits associated with that strategy, the appeal of the new and unique, and the status of particular individuals who accept the Mormon message and their influence in drawing additional converts.

In other words, it is the same story that has played out throughout history. Soon Mormonism in Africa will reach a relatively insignificant statistical equilibrium, as it has everywhere else. There is nothing about Mormon doctrine per se, or the 'plan of salvation' that is resonating with these people. It has nothing to do with Mormonism 'filling the whole Earth.' With the new openness of Mormonism towards Blacks, Mormonism found a new niche that it is exploiting. It is as simple as that.

These are just my intuitions on the matter. If there are more specific social facts in play, I am open to being persuaded otherwise.

I suppose my original post was too vague. Henry comes the closest when he says,

"This strikes me as a question about human psychology coupled with general principles of sociology as applied to religious trends and religious institutions."

Exactly what I was going for. We all know that Africa will go the way of the rest of the world when it comes to Mormonism. The Mormon gimmick took it only so far and the great stone rolling turns out to be code for meager following.

But . . .Why were slaves brought here as believers in Yoruba and Orisa and in no time they are more Christian than anyone? What is the human psychology behind that?

There are no Yorubians or Orisa in foxholes?

From my former life in Democratic Republic of Congo, I remember how all the Congolese were extremely religious, all the while remaining people who believe in witchcraft, shamans, and all. They loved talking ANY religion, and it appeared that ALL Congolese attended some kind of Christian church. So it's incredibly easy to talk religion with any Congolese. They all are very enthusiastic about joining a church, so it's really easy to talk them into baptism. Therefore, the church can really rack up a lot of baptisms in a short time. However, retention of the Congolese had all the same problems as anywhere else, or maybe even worse, due to the fact that many "converts" will go on to join another church shortly afterwards. Another major contribution to Congolese abandoning Mormonism within a short time is that they flock to spiritualistic or charismatic congregations, where people stand and shout and fall on their knees, etc., while a rock band plays Christian rock on a stage. Who wouldn't abandon dull, drool-inducing Mormonism for some good drums and electric guitars? Besides, the teaching of one church is no better than the preaching of any other church. And the Mormons bite themselves in their own collective arse by heavy emphasis on Joseph Smith instead of Jebus; most Congolese want to hear about Jebus.

Fascinating. Thank you, cludgie.

I always wonder if for so many in the world religion is just religion. Pick the one you like and any will do. The Mormons with their "I KNOW" stuff and "ONY TRUE CHURCH" stuff seem to have taken on a load they really can't carry any more.

Right.

Sometimes it seems like religion is on par with picking a diet program here in the USA. It's keto yesterday and gluten-free next month. Many people will keep trying the latest diet or religion fad.

"Mormonism. The one you haven't tried yet. Isn't it about time?"