I remember being very young, sitting in Sunday school, reading about Joseph Smith.

Three thoughts came to me.

1) If the LDS church is the Church of Jesus Christ, why are we just studying Joseph Smith? Why all the emphasis on this guy? Why weren't we studying about Jesus?

2) Smith's excuses were exactly what a 14 year old con artist would come up with. Can't show you the plates. An angel took them back.

Way too convenient.

3) Every time Joseph had a new revelation, he got it from God. And God only spoke to him. None of his claims could be proven, and if you didn't believe him, you were being disobedient. Isn't that exactly what a cult leader would say?

At the same time, I saw some shows about cults on TV. The Moonies, Jonestown, etc. I saw a pattern. A charismatic leader who fooled a lot of people into turning over their money, their s3x lives, their time, and even their thinking to him, all in the name of God. And you're not allowed to ask questions.

What was your first clue?

I was never a member, but "the angel took the plates away" made me want to howl with laughter. For everything else up to that point, I was merely skeptical.

It's just too easy. An angel ate my homework!

It happened to me once when I was a kid.

An angel ate your homework? How rude!

I know, right? . . . To think I was worried about the dog. . .

Also when I was very young...I don't really remember the age, but it was when they first taught that JS was visited in his bedroom by an angel. The story seemed Santa Clausish to me and I was never able to shake that notion, hard as I tried. I spent way too long trying to "get it". Everyone around me seemed to. They seemed satisfied. I was miserable. I had a hell of an inferiority complex, wondering why God talked to them and not me.

Agree. My family traveled to the JS house when I was a young teen. I stood in the bedroom where JS slept and the angel appeared. His brother's bed was right there. I remember wondering how the brother managed to sleep through all that commotion and JS woke right up.

I also began to notice that God repeatedly seemed to pick dubious nut cases to communicate with privately and then instructed them to speak for Him. Go figure.

I also thought that Joseph’s brothers were all sleeping in the same bedroom and probably a few in the same bed. The room became bright and a guy was talking while hovering in the room. I would think that someone else in the room noticed it and could back up his story. But nooooooooooo, no one ever brings that up.

And remember it was a bedroom he shared with his brothers who were five of his brothers sleeping in the same room, some probably in the same bed. Funny that no one else noticed.

I never had the swelling of the bosom (what a great phrase!) based on the power of Holy McGhost; I depended on the solemn word of others. I wonder how long that would have worked?

But then I went to "through the temple..."

1960s mormonism was a nice walk in a pleasant park, until the temple. The (to me) nonsense of the temple was as noxious as watching il Papa doing whatever nonsense (to me) he could be seen doing there in Trafalgar Square, assuming Trafalger Square was in the Vatican, which it isn't, but I'd be okay relocating it there, but Kentish is going to resist this, I'm sure...

You know how most of us who were adult, or adult-lite, when President Kennedy was assassinated while checking out a book at the Texas Book Suppository, remember exactly where we were and what we were doing when we heard the news?

Well, that's how I feel about coming out of the temple and approaching my bishop and Sister bishop... He had the big goofy smile on his face, like, "Wow, wasn't that the best ride of your life?!! Wasn't that the most awesome experience ever?!"

It wasn't. It was a bloody poop show, on wheels, with soggy fireworks. Mormonism was, in my mind, still a positive force that promoted good works, but so did the Howdy Doody Show.

"Waashhdae"

Nelson keeping his one eye on the Pope. Now there's aconcept.

I was pretty clueless and gullible. They said the Lord works in mysterious ways, so, what's not to believe? If that's the way God does things, then why not?

I actually left just before I knew why, while still at the Y. Then, while still there it was the MoF that finally made me see the bull for what it was. All I needed was just that one clue though. That did it. Instantly. Thank you SWK.

A friend had loaned me the book saying, "This will really help". He was right but not the way he thought it would.

Physical impossibilities in the BoM and church history. I'll give you one free miracle, but a whole bunch of them?

The Laban story. Nephite ships starting from absolutely no shipbuilding experience. Don't worry, she'll survive her maiden voyage and the monster swells of the Atlantic. Cuz faith. It that's not implausible enough for you, Jaredite barges.

Oh right, all things are possible, no matter how absurd, with God. Book me a ride over Niagara Falls in a barrel.

But supposing I can swallow the BoM narrative, what ancient information did it reveal that has been vindicated by science? None. Lots of its ancient revelation has been destroyed by sceince. The BoM has every indication of being a tall tale spun by hucksters to turn a profit. Judging from the church's current portfolio, it worked.

> The BoM has every indication of being a tall tale spun by hucksters to turn a profit. Judging from the church's current portfolio, it worked.

When we are kids, we learn about not telling lies. However, we all tried it (I didn't eat chomp chomp that cookie!). Most of us learned the nuances involved in lying. Sometimes we didn't want to hurt someone's feelings. Most of the time we simply lied to further our own self interest. Most of us realize we are not good enough liars to take a lot of risks.

Imagine telling a false tale and realizing you are very, very good at it. You are so good that people believed you. You realize it is a "gift" of sorts that can be used in big ways. You begin to think your tales are not lies. You begin to think you are special. You probably become a crook, religious scammer or politician because there is so much low fruit to be gathered with little effort. You don't need to be accountable. People believe you, and you can spin anything.

JS didn't like to go work out in the field. Even his dad believed him. I don't think most parents want to believe their kid so easily can lie. JS surrounded himself with credulous bumpkins. He caught on fast and refined his tale-telling as he went.

The cruelest lies are often told in silence - Robert Louis Stevenson

I was raised to be sincere, and in my naivete, I believed that everyone was the same as me in that regard. It took me a long time to learn skepticism. I don't think that my religion did me any favors by teaching me to always be sincere and trusting of others.

I finally left because I just didn't like being a part of it. It no longer jived with me. The temple seemed very weird but I was so invested in "the church" I thought the "peculiar" stuff was just part of being Mormon along with showing faithfulness by sticking with it no matter how weird it seemed.

I think I was so brainwashed while Mormon that I couldn't even tell myself that any part of it wasn't true, even when it didn't feel right. I eventually started asking questions during lessons but still felt guilt and disloyalty by questioning. It wasn't until several years after leaving that I could acknowledge that all of it was boloney. Now I'm a little bitter because I know that I was duped!

"... castles made of sand
fall in the sea
eventually"

Jimi Hendrix - Castles Made of Sand

When riding in the car with a devout and more learned member than myself, a few months after I was baptized, he mentioned, almost in passing, that a couple Book of Mormon witnesses (can't remember the two he mentioned specifically) renounced their membership. It was my first, uh oh, moment. At the moment I thought to myself, someone saw god and/or angels and/or some other supernatural phenomena, and just blew it all off like your run of the mill non-believing atheist.

Church was a swirling maelestrom of crazy people. It was a poor ward, and not a lot of volunteers. The primary teachers were clearly mentally ill. You could see it in their eyes. Never was heard an encouraging word. I was told many times to not ask questions.

By the time I was 8, I could firmly say NO to baptism.

I was 15 years old and my friend had joined the Church. She brought the missionaries in to teach me.

The moment they taught me the lesson about the First Vision, I remember raising and eyebrow and going, "Oh, yeah?" I thought they were nuts.

But I was young and I had adults saying to me, "Few people find the truth, but you've found it at only 15. Aren't you lucky?"

I still thought it was crazy, but I thought that adults wouldn't lie to me.

Always follow your first instinct.

Prayer is useless.

I was sure the bishop would have answers for my boyfriend being gay. I just wanted them to tell me he would be okay. Every time I went to a higher up, the answer was he was damned unless he changed. I couldn't deal with that, that God would put gay on the earth and not give them a possible way out of being damned. I was told they had to change to straight and not even 1 in 10 made it. It just kept getting worse the stuff they told me including old Boyd.

I was such a mess. I was caught between if I leave the church and I don't save him, he goes to hell. The temple was pretty much the last straw.

Even after all these years there are things they told me or people say now that I think WTH?

I always thought as a child the story about Joe's leg as a child and me being a child was ridiculous. I never wanted to drink because it was smelly. I was immersed in it at my grandmother's house because my uncles were drunks.

I didn't have much control over my own existence. I still don't understand why not drinking over and operation was important. As a 5 year old I was out under for invasive exploratory surgery for bed wetting. I couldn't refuse anesthesia.

Joe never seemed like a hero to me. He seemed like someone I wouldn't have liked.

Even in HS the whole BoM thing seemed pretty fishy. I was always a science nerd, and the BoM seemed not to match the science of the time,

Of course since then the mismatch between the BoM and scientific evidence has become a chasm.

My first trip through the temple should have been enough. Then seeing the effects of the priesthood ban in the Church in Brazil should have been enough.

But when the BoA papyri were found and returned to the Church, and it was provable that they had nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham, that was enough.

Try making sense out of their stance on evolution, which boils down to, “We take no position on science, except to say our primal parents are Adam and Eve.”

IOW we believe the first humans supposedly lived 6,000yrs ago when humans have existed since they broke off from Chimps and Bonobos, 1.8 million yrs ago, but let’s just ignore THAT 1.8 million years!

And ignore Australian aboriginals who have been there for over 40,000 years. Did they have their own Adam and Eve?

Aborigines were in Australia while our ancestors were bumping uglies w/ Neanderthals in Europe and Denisovans in Asia.
Creationism fails to account for the other 15 species of humans who proceeded us. We are not even the first Homo sapiens. Homo Sapians Idaltu, the First Wise Man, preceded us and they went extinct 165,000 yrs ago. Did God create them too, just to go extinct?
The god I believe in, aka, nature, did create all 16 species of humans and the fittest survived.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2023 11:57PM by schrodingerscat.

We worship the God who made the humans with the most guns.

We worship the God who gave the last species of 16 species of humans nukes and Artificial Intelligence. Thank God!

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We worship the God who made the humans with the
> most guns.


“It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?” -Norm MacDonald.

Religion can ignore or believe anything they want. The faith card trumps all others. Bet you I could convince a bunch of fundies that Cain is actually Bigfoot wandering the earth still.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_Unvailed

“One day he [Joseph] came, and greeted me with a joyful countenance. Upon asking the cause of his unusual happiness, he replied in the following language: ‘As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home. On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live....'

“ ‘Now,' said Jo, ‘I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun.' Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.”

- Peter Ingersoll, affidavit, quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 235-236, 1834

Was that your first clue or just one of people's first clues at it's inception?

I was never a member, but my husband was. I remember thinking it was a crock when I heard the Mormon Seagulls story… and the stuff about garments and baptisms for the dead. And the way the church divides families made me think it wasn’t much of a Christ-like church, either.

The seagull story actually happened, which is more than can be said for much of Mormon folklore. Interestingly, it was not considered miraculous until a number of years after the fact. Cricket infestations happen, and birds scarf them down. Elko NV had a particularly bad infestation just a few weeks ago.

The story of the Mormon crickets got embellished and attributed to divine intervention mostly because why not, if your goal is to sell Mormonism.

Well, it’s probably the way I heard the story, as if it was solely due to the religion, that made me think it was BS. It sounded like something that came out of the Flash Gordon movie circa 1980. :D

The first vision wasn't considered fundamental until all the old Mormons had died. Apparently, lots of people saw God back in the day.

I never was sold on the church. For me it was being stuck in a family tradition I didn’t want but felt obligated to participate in. I left because I no longer could stand living a lie.

I hade an orthodox Jewish friend who bucked his faith. His family pretty much disowned him. I have a Muslim friend who left her faith and married a non-Muslim. She got death threats from her cousins.

I just lost friends who never were friends. Half of my family or more have left the church. I only have two siblings who are active anymore.