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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 28, 2023 09:50PM

https://www.wral.com/amp/20971401/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/07/27/historian-warns-against-floridas-slavery-curriculum/70463676007/

New slavery curriculum in Florida is latest in century of 'undermining history'

In 1918, prominent American historian Ulrich Bonnell Phillips framed institutional slavery as a “school” that provided adequate training in modern technology and helped “civilize” slaves.

Last week, Florida announced a new curriculum that mirrored that rhetoric from more than a century ago, including lessons on how "slaves developed skills" for "personal benefit." Florida’s new education plan is the most recent example of a long history of the United States’ failure to adequately represent the institution of slavery and the lingering effects that enslaving humans has had on modern society.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

First Don’t Say Gay Laws, then kill women’s rights over their own bodies, now Slavery Was AOK with "whitey", so what’s the problem?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2023 05:55PM by Maude.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: July 28, 2023 11:17PM

I saw Spike Lee and Anderson Cooper talking about this on CNN. I can't agree that slavery helped the slaves.

That is like saying there was a good side to polygamist Warren Jeffs impregnating 14 year old girls--- because the girls learned good baby sitting skills.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 12:17AM

+1

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 12:26AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> +1

Agree

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 28, 2023 11:38PM


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Posted by: SoCal Apostate ( )
Date: July 28, 2023 11:47PM

Every prisoner in Auschwitz exceeded their weight-loss goal.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 12:07AM

crass

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 04:10PM

Auschwitz was about as crass as it gets.  Most people understand this, especially on this site.

Cutting-edge humor isn't cutting-edge to non-cutting-edge people.

Opinions will differ, and trying to establish one's personal setting as one that is in control is usually doomed to failure unless you're Brigham Young...or Adolf Hitler.

The ordinary response is a shrug of the shoulders after the required sour look.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 04:13PM

I wasn't a fan of it either. Some things are beyond the point where you can joke about them, IMO.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 04:25PM

Who gets to be in charge of "that point"?

Here on RfM, there are those with the power to edit, so they are in charge.  The rest of us are just opinionated.

With me, it's the serious people who make me shrug my shoulders and just move.

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Posted by: SoCal Apostate ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:44AM

I was pointing out that the 'beneficial' claim is absurd and itself crass. I may be stupider than I thought I was, but I do not see where I went astray. Please educate me.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:54AM

Yours was a harsh analogy. But I, for one, consider chattel slavery one of the things that arguably approaches the evil of the Holocaust.

I don't want to commit myself one way or the other, but I found your post provocative and could not, and cannot, reject it out of hand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 01:58AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: SoCal Apostate ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 02:08AM

That was EXACTLY my point. I did not think that I 'crossed a line', as slavery is on the same side of that line as the other, and what I wrote is a mechanism to show that the assertion was absurdly wrong.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 07:47AM

My prediction is that most Florida teachers will put a different spin on it, noting the many different jobs that slaves held, while leaving out the part about how it was a "benefit" to them.

The people who benefitted from their job training were the young people who served as apprentices for a period of time, and also the indentured servants who traded seven years of labor in return for passage to the United States. The slaves had no say in coming here, in where they worked or what type of work they did, and there was no end period to their labors. They could be mistreated at will, and their children were born into slavery as well. There is no comparison, much as the Florida school board would lilke to spin it that way.

It has become more acceptable in recent years for blatant, public racism to rear its ugly head. Racism is flourishing in Florida.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 01:14PM

https://www.adl.org/resources/report/hate-sunshine-state-extremism-antisemitism-florida-2020-2022

Florida is home to an extensive, interconnected network of white supremacists and other far-right extremists. This network, which often collaborates in planning and executing propaganda distribution campaigns, banner drops and in-person demonstrations, includes the White Lives Matter (WLM) network, the antisemitic Goyim Defense League (GDL), the New Jersey European Heritage Association (NJEHA), NSDAP (named after the Nazi Party of Germany), the neo-Nazi Sunshine State Nationalists (SSN), NatSoc Florida (NSF) and the National Socialist Movement (NSM). Many of the individuals in this network, which includes dozens, attend events organized by multiple groups giving each group an outsized appearance.


From January 2020 to August 2022, ADL Center on Extremism (COE) recorded over 400 instances of white supremacist propaganda distribution in Florida. The overwhelming majority of these incidents involved the white supremacist groups Patriot Front and the New Jersey European Heritage Association. Ninety-five of these incidents included antisemitic language or symbols, targeted Jewish institutions, or both. Propaganda allows extremists to disseminate hateful messages and gain attention with little risk of public exposure.


Florida is home to the most people charged in relation to the January 6 insurrection. Of the 855 individuals charged in connection to the insurrection, 90 (10.5%) hail from the state of Florida.


Hate crimes continued to rise in the state of Florida over the last several years. According to the FBI’s 2020 Hate Crime Statistics report (the most recent data available), 56.1% of nationally reported religion-based hate crimes in 2020 targeted the Jewish community. In Florida, hate crimes against Jews accounted for 80% of the religiously motivated incidents in 2020, and antisemitic hate crimes have risen 300% since 2012.


Florida has seen a dramatic rise in antisemitic incidents, according to ADL’s annual Audit of Antisemitic Incidents. In 2021, the number of reported incidents increased 50% over 2020 numbers, rising from 127 to 190. This included 142 instances of harassment, 47 instances of vandalism and one antisemitic assault.


In August of 2022, COE found a significant increase in violent rhetoric in right-wing online spaces following the FBI search of former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago property. Threats have largely targeted federal law enforcement and Department of Justice officials, including specific law enforcement officers who were onsite for the search and magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, who signed off on the search warrant.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 01:18PM

https://www.newsweek.com/florida-antisemitic-messages-swastika-jacksonville-west-palm-beach-1774725
Neo-nazis have been projecting antisemitic messages and hate symbols on buildings in Florida in recent days, blaming Jews for 9/11 and "wrecking" the U.S.

The incidents, which appear to have begun on Saturday, have been linked to the far-right groups National Socialism Florida (NSF) and Goyim Defense League (GDL) by antisemitism watchdogs. One group warned of plans to "broaden their efforts to terrorize Floridian residents."

On January 15, at around 9 p.m. ET, a projection appeared on the AT&T building on Gardenia Street in West Palm Beach, according to local reports. Video footage from the scene shows the words "Jews did 9-11 the FBI helped" scrolling across the building's face.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2023 07:55PM by anybody.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 01:53PM

Wonderful. /s

I'm sure the FBI is keeping a close eye on those groups. What a headache!

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 05:27PM

Eventually, this will backfire, badly. IMHO, only a handful of idiots really believe this.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 09:38PM

Apparently not in Florida, where ‘Woke goes to die’.
Floridians LOVE DeSantis and re-elected him in a landslide.
Florida is gaining more taxpayers than any other state in the union. California and NY are losing taxpayers more than anywhere.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 12:01AM

Mother Nature always has the final say. Home insurance rates are rapidly rising there due to the much higher probability of hurricane and flooding damage. Many insurers have already pulled out. I think that many people who formerly found Florida attractive will be looking at other options.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 12:15AM

True.
Mother Nature always wins.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 03:53PM

Why are you calling them taxpayers? Other than your permanent need to be provocative. People. People are moving out of NY and CA and to FL.

BTW, there is no state income tax in FL, so that’s one tax nobody is paying.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 04:03PM

The other point is that Mr. Cat is constantly describing himself as anti-woke and yet here he is now, criticizing DeSantis for being anti-woke. There is no consistency, no real principle, informing the rants to which we are constantly subjected.

Why argue against what Mr. Cat says today? It'll be different tomorrow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2023 04:36PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 06:40PM

Pretty sure they pay sales and property taxes.
Income tax isn’t the only form of tax.

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 12:38PM

"Florida is gaining more taxpayers than any other state in the union. California and NY are losing taxpayers more than anywhere."

I'm sure you have a point here... somewhere.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 09:47PM

I wonder what platform / promises DeS made in his election campaign?

Reality or Empty promises?

I don't understand how a teacher c/would put up with this unless they were anchored with a spouse, other family, or sinking real estate; Something's Rotten in Denmark, that's for sure.

then there's nurses & physicians who are afraid to treat a pregnant woman having severe distress;

next there's rising sea levels, a serious problem with sink holes, and outrageous homeowners insurance costs.

'not to mention' Des' clash with Disney policies & workers.

OTOH, there's Cypress Cove...

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 10:01PM

The slave's skills only benefited their masters.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 29, 2023 10:58PM

I can Guess (far-fetched?) that some slaves might have learned / developed increased usefulness to owners; isn’t “masters” a tiny bit pejorative? There may have been somewhat increased rank among some slaves.

Whether or not different slaves ‘earned’ better conditions for increased skills / usefulness, IDK.

Facts, Please.

IM NOT Condoning or excusing slavery or human trafficking!!!

Please don’t bother flaming me, this is highly speculative & hypothetical

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:23AM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can Guess (far-fetched?) that some slaves might
> have learned / developed increased usefulness to
> owners; isn’t “masters” a tiny bit
> pejorative? There may have been somewhat
> increased rank among some slaves.

What skills would be worth learning at the price of one's liberty and health and freedom of choice I wonder?

A generic outline of slavery in America: "Nearly 4 million slaves with a market value estimated to be between $3.1 and $3.6 billion lived in the U.S. just before the Civil War. Masters enjoyed rates of return on slaves comparable to those on other assets; cotton consumers, insurance companies, and industrial enterprises benefited from slavery as well."

Market Value. Rates of Return. Not usually or justly the way anyone should view or treat other humans.

Owners/Masters: I don't see either label as appealing when the issue was enslaving others.

A generic outline of the terminology:

"An enslaver exerted power over those they kept in bondage. They referred to themself as a master or owner - hierarchical language which reinforced a sense of natural authority."

No, I don't think that calling slaveowners masters is pejorative in the sense of being critical or offensive to the slaveowners, because that is what they wanted their slaves to call them and consider them, and that is what they were, in every sense of the word, when their word was law and their "property" had no input into their own preferences and the way their life would go.


> Whether or not different slaves ‘earned’
> better conditions for increased skills /
> usefulness, IDK.

Like a reward system for being a useful slave? Not that I've heard of.


From buffalolib.org:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=why+were+slaveowners+called+masters%3F

"Enslaved vs. Slave: Today, most historians speak of “enslaved people” instead of “slaves.” This language separates a person's
identity from his/her circumstance.

"Enslaver vs. Owner/Master: The usage of “owner” or “master” empowers the enslaver and dehumanizes the enslaved person reducing him/her to a commodity rather than a person who has had slavery imposed upon him or her.

"Using the terms enslaved and enslaver, are subtle but powerful ways of affirming that slavery was forced upon that person, rather than an inherent condition."


You say: "Slavery was no picnic".

That is a bit of an understatement re a still very sensitive and regrettable reality in the US' history.

In my opinion, to indicate that it was in some way, any way, beneficial for the enslaved person is a disservice to all the people who suffered in bondage as well as the multitudes who have suffered since then and still in our own present day from the "legacy" of enslavement.

We have a lot still to learn about that historical wrong and I don't expect everybody to be up to speed on all the various aspects of the situation then and now but I do hope that most will try to educate themselves more about it. It's all still a work in progress.

I heard a radio interview today with a cousin of Emmett Till's. He lived at a time when slavery was no more and yet he still suffered the ultimate wrong of being cruelly murdered because of a lie, decades after the end of slavery in the USA. There are still people alive who suffered his heartbreaking loss so it wasn't all that long ago after all. The pain in his cousin's voice was still most notable. To the question of whether Emmett's death was in vain she replied "No, it wasn't in vain because it is seen as helping to spark the civil rights movement".

That is quite a legacy for a teenager. I'm glad to know his name has not been lost in the mists of time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 01:27AM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 12:07AM

That AND they could have developed a lot more skills if they didn't have to pick cotton or some other menial task all day.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 12:55AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That AND they could have developed a lot more
> skills if they didn't have to pick cotton or some
> other menial task all day.

I agree with what U said even though that’s a stereotype;

I had an uncle who had a farm and there a many different tasks other than planting & harvesting.

Slavery was no picnic but, but there were different skills & tasks as on most any farm.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:15AM

History is ugly and harsh.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:31AM

Almost all African Americans who descended from slaves are at least part white.

And it didn't happen through marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 01:32AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:26AM

What happened to slaves when they got too old to work ?

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Posted by: Changeling ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 01:33AM

I mean WOW! How can you say anything positive about slavery. Classic example of someone peeing on your leg and telling you it is raining.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 02:04AM

Anyone arguing that slavery was good is evil.

Anyone arguing that slavery was good is evil.

Anyone arguing that slavery was good is evil.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 02:12AM

Slavery was morally WRONG for several reasons, but it's my opinion that there were more skills and tasks than only picking cotton on slave farms as there are today although radically different.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 02:23AM

Imagine having a skill or trade that you couldn't benefit from.

You did the job, but the master got the money.

Many slaves were rented out by their owners.

You had no choice as a slave. Your existence belonged to someone else.

You had no choice.

None.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 02:32AM

> You had no choice.
>
> None.

Nor did your wife, nor your children, nor theirs.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 08:56AM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Tom_Wiggins

Thomas "Blind Tom" Wiggins (May 25, 1849 – June 14, 1908) was an American pianist and composer.[1] He had numerous original compositions published and had a lengthy and largely successful performing career throughout the United States. During the 19th century, he was one of the best-known American performing pianists and one of the best-known African-American musicians.

Wiggins was born Thomas Greene[2] on the Wiley Edward Jones Plantation in Harris County, Georgia. Blind at birth, he was sold in 1850 along with his enslaved parents, Charity and Domingo "Mingo" Wiggins, to a Columbus, Georgia lawyer, General James Neil Bethune.[3] Bethune was "the first [newspaper] editor in the south to openly advocate secession".[4] Wiggins's name was variously reported as "Thomas Greene Bethune",[5] "Thomas Wiggins", or "Thomas Bethune"; his name was changed due to his slave status.[2] The headstone at his grave reads "Thomas Greene Wiggins".[6]

Because Tom was blind, he could not perform work normally demanded of slaves. Instead, he was left to play and explore the Bethune plantation. At an early age, he showed an interest in the piano after hearing the instrument played by Bethune's daughters. By age four he reportedly had acquired some piano skills by ear, and gained access to the piano. By age five Tom reportedly had composed his first tune, The Rain Storm, after a torrential downpour on a tin roof.[7] With his skills recognized by General Bethune, Tom was permitted to live in a room attached to the family house, equipped with a piano. Neighbor Otto Spahr, reminiscing about Tom in the Atlanta Constitution in 1908 (as reproduced in The Ballad of Blind Tom, by Deirdre O'Connell), observed: "Tom seemed to have but two motives in life: the gratification of his appetite and his passion for music. I don't think I exaggerate when I state that he made the piano go for twelve hours out of twenty-four."[8]

As a child, Tom began to echo the sounds around him, repeating accurately the crow of a rooster or the singing of a bird. If he was left alone in the cabin, Tom was known to begin beating on pots and pans or dragging chairs across the floor in an attempt to make any kind of noise. By the age of four, Tom was able to repeat conversations up to ten minutes in length but was barely able to adequately communicate his own needs, resorting to grunts and gestures.

Another example of Tom's extraordinary abilities was shown after he was taken to a political rally in 1860 in support of Democratic presidential candidate Stephen Douglas. Years after he had attended this speech, he was still able to repeat it while capturing the tone and mannerisms of Douglas. Additionally, he was able to recreate the heckles and cheers of the crowd with remarkable precision.[9]

Bethune hired out "Blind Tom" from the age of eight years to concert promoter Perry Oliver, who toured him extensively in the US, performing as often as four times a day and earning Oliver and Bethune up to $100,000 a year, an enormous sum for the time,[10] "equivalent to $1.5 million/year [in 2004], making Blind Tom undoubtedly the nineteenth century's most highly compensated pianist".[11] General Bethune's family eventually made a fortune estimated at $750,000 at the hands of Blind Tom.[12] Oliver marketed Tom as a "Barnum-style freak" advertising the transformation from animal to artist. In the media, Tom was frequently compared to a bear, baboon, or mastiff.

Bethune hired professional musicians to play for Tom, who could faithfully reproduce their performances, often after a single listening. Eventually he learned a reported 7,000 pieces of music, including hymns, popular songs, waltzes, and classical repertoire.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 03:18AM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slavery was morally WRONG for several reasons, but
> it's my opinion that there were more skills and
> tasks than only picking cotton on slave farms as
> there are today although radically different.


Yes, what anybody said. There were perhaps more tasks but they still performed them as enslaved persons.

They were robbed of their freedom of choice in every aspect of their lives. They did not benefit from their own backbreaking work. So some may have been moved on from cotton but they were still enslaved.

There is no change-up of chores that makes that reality any more palatable.

Would enslaving people be okay if there had been no cotton to pick?

And they had to call their enslaver Master.

To say, as has been done recently, obviously, that there were benefits to slavery for the enslaved persons is to reject the ideals of equality and freedom and to ignore all the associated harms we can barely begin to describe and comprehend.

It's OK to ask questions when one is trying to understand something. Hopefully, we can all take new information on board and come to understand different points of view.

I would say try to picture oneself in such a situation but I think some realities are beyond our complete understanding unless we have lived it, or at least witnessed it, ourselves.

The only way we can be witnesses at this point is to become as informed as possible about the history and practice of slavery in North America.

Canada is not immune. Our national blight is the treatment meted out against Indigenous Peoples here. To our eternal shame, the harm is ongoing as we speak, due to generational trauma, government action and inaction in various areas, within policing policies and practices, with schooling and also, so regrettably, in the medical sphere as well where prejudice and suboptimal treatment and open mistreatment occur alarmingly regularly.

We don't all live in the same world. Often the only thing the more fortunate amongst us can do is to at least be aware of inequities and mistreatment and try to make a positive difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 03:20AM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 09:04AM

think of the people who built them.

Many of them were slaves.

https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2009/nr09-28-images.html


Slaves Built the White House and Capitol - See the Records


Two of Washington, DC's most famous buildings, the White House and the United States Capitol, were built in large part by enslaved African Americans. National Archives holdings include wage rolls, promissory notes, and vouchers that document the work done by slaves on these two historic structures.

In 1791 Pierre L'Enfant, who planned the City of Washington, leased African American slaves from their masters to clear the sites for the "President's House" and the Capitol. Once the land was cleared, Washington's three-man Board of Commissioners, who oversaw the new city's construction, tried to recruit laborers from Europe and America to build the two structures. Unable to find as many workers as they needed, the commissioners turned to African Americans slaves. Most slaves hauled building materials and sawed lumber, but others performed skilled labor such as carpentry, stonecutting, and bricklaying. A list of persons who were employed to build the Capitol and White House, between 1795 and 1800, contains 122 names labeled "Negro hire."

Wage rolls preserved at the National Archives list the African Americans who worked on these projects as carpenters and brickmakers. One such roll is a 1795 "Carpenter's Roll" for the President's House. The document lists four slaves, "Tom, Peter, Ben, [and] Harry," two of whom were slaves owned by James Hoban, the architect of the President's House. The rolls record the number of days worked and the rate at which each person was paid. A slave's wages were paid directly to the slave owner who signed the rolls as receipt of payment.

A second document is a 1795 promissory note from the commissioners to Jasper M. Jackson for the hire of his slave, "Negro Dick at the Capitol, from 1st April to 1st July 1795, 3 Months, at 5 Dollars per Month." Little is known about the lives of the men who, like "Negro Dick," built the Capitol. Most of them lived in shacks on the building site, where they received medical care, food, and occasionally, a small incentive payment above what was given to their masters.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 03:46PM

A minor truth, if believed, can run over the larger context.


So, some slaves (women & men) learned increased skills;

The context of slavery was White Supremacy, let no one justify that or the administration thereof.

Slavery was horrible for individuals and slave families; Also, in benefitting from slavery, it taught owners that it was justified, desirable .


Which brings the question:

Q: Why didn't ChurchCo & BY condemn slavery from the get-go?

A. For the early saints in Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, it had the potential to sink the church (when were the first effective missions to Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky. Louisiana, the Carolinas, Arkansas, etc.?)

However for IMW saints, it was an opportunity to raise the banner of Liberty, of the importance of individual agency & importance of family units;

ChurchCo was operating motivated by FEAR of hatred, condemnation.

The IMW saints Blew It because BY & others benefitted.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 04:25PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 03:48PM

It does make for a good question -- why did anyone ever think this was a good idea?

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 04:20PM

I would quibble with use of the word 'good', summer.

the reason that so many people supported slavery was bc they benefitted from it;

as we understand, BY (others?) brought slaves with them to Deseret/Utah. Wasn't cotton grown in southern D/U 'Dixie'? were slaves indentured to pick cotton & do other menial, labor-intensive tasks?

the white people of the south were (completely?) relieved of working menial work.

the owners financially benefitted and were in fact dependent on cheap labor.

others? I'm open to discuss any others



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 05:01PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 07:51PM

Slaves were not "indentured". They were enslaved for the rest of their lives.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 08:18PM

Not just the rest of their lives, Dave, but for the rest of their descendants lives. Husbands could be sold away from wives, wifes from husbands, children from parents. Families were destroyed right and left. And the slaves owners could, and frequently did, use those African Americans as sexual toys whenever they wanted.

African families are strong. What happens to a people when you destroy their families? When you buy and sell people as chattels? What sort of emotional damage does that do and how many generations does it last?

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 30, 2023 10:45PM

I hope we're all agreed on the central elements:

Racism & Slavery were (some still are) awful things to endure /'tolerate'; Horrible for individuals, families & society in general.


In Seattle & Bellevue, there is near constant focus on preventing human trafficking (prostitution) to the point where airline crews are TRAINED TO RECOGNIZE IT AND WHAT ACTIONS TO TAKE.

the above is the unfortunate legacy of one person exploiting another for financial benefit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2023 11:13PM by Maude.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 12:18AM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope we're all agreed on the central elements:
>
> Racism & Slavery were (some still are) awful
> things to endure /'tolerate'; Horrible for
> individuals, families & society in general.
>
I view it like abuse. Yeah it’s bad and we should try to prevent
It when we can but it’s not going away. We just have to go on progressing, producing and evolving despite the destruction, abuse, pain and chaos.

> In Seattle & Bellevue, there is near constant
> focus on preventing human trafficking
> (prostitution) to the point where airline crews
> are TRAINED TO RECOGNIZE IT AND WHAT ACTIONS TO
> TAKE.
>
> the above is the unfortunate legacy of one person
> exploiting another for financial benefit.


In reality there never were more slaves on Earth than there are today. Most of them women. Most of them sold into sex slavery.

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Posted by: T-Bone ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 03:16AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In reality there never were more slaves on Earth
> than there are today. Most of them women. Most of
> them sold into sex slavery.

This is the tragedy that often goes untold.

Slavery was always wrong, still is. I can't believe that anybody would say that slaves were better off on plantations because they learned "valuable skills".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2023 03:17AM by T-Bone.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 12:08AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.wral.com/amp/20971401/
>
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/07
> /27/historian-warns-against-floridas-slavery-curri
> culum/70463676007/
>
> New curriculum in Florida is latest in 'undermining history'
>
>
> First Don’t Say Gay Laws, then kill women’s
> rights over their own bodies, now Slavery Was AOK
> with "whitey", so what’s the problem?

Who WOKE yesterday?

He also said Florida is where woke comes to die'.

But that can't be true because everybody isn't a woke broke joke yet.

He's an idiot. Is he Mormon, or are you?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 12:48PM

Nope and Nope.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 01:34PM

People cringe in horror when they hear news stories about Fritzl-esque basement sex slaves, people abused in cults and controlled without chains, etc.


But somehow, slavery had "benefits."


You can't defend the indefensible. Just Stop.


"Oh, they were just jungle savages, we gave them the Word of God and taught them to be civilized! They're ungrateful! They should thank us!"


(Watch this cringeworthy John Wayne interview from 1974
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ppVTzjwgc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ftJ9Q6vsLU)


Here's a famous court case from Missouri. A slave was executed for killing her rapist -- even though state law allowed a woman to defend herself against rape -- because her rapist was her "owner."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Missouri_v._Celia,_a_Slave


Sometime around 1819, Robert Newsom left his home state of Virginia and traveled west and eventually settled in Callaway County, Missouri, with his wife and children.[4] By 1850, Newsom had established himself as a prosperous man in his new home, where he owned eight hundred acres of land, a successful farm, and five male slaves.[5] Newsom's wife died sometime in 1849,[6] and, less than a year later in 1850, Newsom travelled to Audrain County to purchase Celia, his first female slave.[7] It is likely that Newsom raped the 14-year-old Celia for the first time on the journey from Audrain County back to Callaway County.[8]

Back on Newsom's property in Callaway County, Celia was given her own cabin, about fifty feet away from the main house, where she lived separately from Newsom's male slaves. Between 1850 and 1855, Newsom repeatedly raped Celia, and she bore two children over the course of those five years, at least one of whom was fathered by Newsom.[9]

At some point before 1855, Celia began a romantic relationship with George, one of Newsom's other slaves. In 1855, Celia was pregnant for a third time with a child that was likely fathered by either George or Newsom.[10] At some point, George gave Celia an ultimatum and told her "he would have nothing more to do with her if she did not quit the old man."[8] Celia attempted to plead with Newsom's family members and with Newsom himself. Sometime on or around June 23, 1855, Celia begged Newsom to leave her alone because she was sick and pregnant. Newsom refused and told her that "he was coming down to her cabin that night."[8]

Celia threatened Newsom and told him that she would hurt him if he tried to rape her again. After her conversation with Newsom, Celia went and found a large stick, which she placed in the corner of her cabin.[8]


On the night of June 23, 1855, after the rest of his family had gone to bed, Robert Newsom came to Celia's cabin, as he had told her that he would.[8] Celia made an attempt to reject his predatory advances, and when he refused to back down, she clubbed him over the head with the stick that she had brought into her cabin earlier that day. After she had hit him the first time, he reached out his arms as if he was trying to grab her. She clubbed him a second time, which killed him.[11] She then moved his body into her fireplace and spent the rest of the night burning his remains. She crushed some of Newsom's smaller bones with a rock, and hid the bones that were too big to crush "under the hearth, and under the floor between a sleeper and the fire-place."[8] The next morning, Celia enlisted the help of Newsom's grandson, twelve-year-old Coffee Wainscott, in scattering the ashes of Robert Newsom. According to Coffee's testimony, Celia told him "she would give [him] two dozen walnuts if [he] would carry the ashes out."[12]

Celia's trial took place at a time when slavery was an extremely contentious issue in America, and the verdict had important implications for the legal status of enslaved persons, particularly black women. At that time, slaveowners were allowed to rape, when the legal status of slaves as property offered few protections or privileges of law. Legally, Celia was only seen as a human subject when she was being punished. As Saidiya Hartman states, "As Missouri v. Celia demonstrated, the enslaved could neither give nor refuse consent, nor offer reasonable resistance, yet they were criminally responsible and liable. The slave was recognized as a reasoning subject, who possessed intent and rationality, solely in the context of criminal liability."[46]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2023 01:46PM by anybody.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 03:47PM

Not to mention, whatever skills slaves developed, pale in comparison to the skills they could have developed had they been able to do work more meaningful than manual labor.
That AND slaves were only considered 3/5 human in our ‘inspired’ Constitution.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 04:25PM

It's not so much about the type of labour but about the nature of their lives, being enslaved, which robbed them of freedom, autonomy and free choice.

People do enjoy doing manual labour and choose it as their work or for personal benefit such as building their own home, chopping firewood etc. The huge difference is choice or at the very least the fact of receiving remuneration for one's work.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 06:41PM

Picking cotton, which 70% of slaves did, isn’t a skill that you develop for your own benefit.
I can’t believe I have to even explain that here.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 06:43PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Picking cotton, which 70% of slaves did, isn’t a
> skill that you develop for your own benefit.
> I can’t believe I have to even explain that
> here.

Why do you think you have to "explain that here"?

I was talking about the major issue being CHOICE. A luxury most of us desire.

I can't believe I have to explain that here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2023 06:44PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 31, 2023 04:29PM

Now you're hating on manual labor. You just have so much hate and needs for battles and virtue beatings of others.

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