https://wheatandtares.org/2023/08/01/apologetics-is-not-a-four-letter-word/

Interesting article on this topic in “Wheat and Tares”

“Official LDS Apologetics: A Swing and A Miss. The Gospel Topic Essays came out about ten years ago. They were a bold attempt by LDS leadership to publish officially sanctioned defenses (apologies, in the classical sense of the term) of LDS doctrines and practices that are often the target of critics. They were apparently intended to be a resource for local LDS leaders, something to which a bishop could direct a concerned or questioning member of their ward. For a couple of years, they were sometimes referenced by LDS leaders.

Then they sort of fell off the radar, no longer discussed or referenced, although they are still posted at LDS.org. The best explanation is that the Essays were just Too Much Information for most mainstream members who read them. They raised more questions than they answered for most LDS readers. For a few who read them very carefully or who had a good knowledge base in LDS history and doctrine, they may have come across as misleading or worse. I think the LDS leadership sees the Essays in retrospect as a well-intentioned effort but, in the end, a mistake. It appears they have concluded indoctrination works better than apologetics, particularly with LDS youth and young adults.”

I seriously doubt MORmONs read the essays. They claim they do, but in reality, I think they’re just there for MORmONs to be able to point to them when they get asked tough questions and say,”Oh the church doesn’t lie by omission, they admitted all of that in the Gospel Topics essays! They never lie!” Without even reading them. That’s their knee jerk response.

If they did read them, they’d have more questions that can’t be answered than answers that cannot be questioned. For instance, the Blacks and the Priesthood essay, they admit there was no doctrinal basis for discrimination and it was likely just an expression of 19th C racism, but they never reconcile that with the official doctrine that a prophet cannot lead the church astray or God will strike them dead. Apparently god didn’t strike Brigham Young dead when he instituted the racist policies nor did he strike any LDS prophet dead for upholding those racist practices for over 100yrs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2023 03:12PM by schrodingerscat.

I think the essays achieved exactly what the higher-ups wanted them to achieve, which is plausible deniability. If the church leaders were ever accused of hiding something important, they could point to the essays. I think this is why the essays are relatively buried on the church's website at present. They were never meant to be actually read by the membership.

You are absolutely, 100% on the mark.

IIRC, the essays were also a response to Tom Phillips's lawsuit against the church in Great Britain. He alleged that the church committed fraud by lying about its origins in order to obtain tithing receipts. While the lawsuit was ultimately unsuccessful, the church got a wake-up call about being somewhat more transparent. The timing fits.

I don't think the UK suit was as important as the fact that Mormons were getting disturbing information about things like polyandry on their own and reacting with rage. The church had to do something to defend itself, something that enabled it to claim that it hadn't been hiding the truth.

In both the UK and the US, the law allows religions to lie with almost complete impunity. There was, and is, no significant movement in either country to change that.

The Phillips case probably wasn’t the main reason for the essays, but I do believe that it was a factor. TSCC probably wasn’t worried about actually losing a fraud case, but exposing doctrinal and historical deception in a court of law law is public relations loss for the church, even if they win the case.

Where exactly is it declared that it is official doctrine that God will strike the President of the church dead if he ever leads the church astray?

Granted, it is a widely accepted folk belief, and it sounds like the sort of blather BY would spout in the JoD, but I am skeptical that it is “official”.

For that matter, I think very little of LDS doctrine actually qualifies as official anymore. It’s all subject to revision and correction.

> Granted, it is a widely accepted folk belief, and
> it sounds like the sort of blather BY would spout
> in the JoD, but I am skeptical that it is
> “official”.

BY said many times that every word that proceeded from his mouth was scripture, so if he said that in JoD or anywhere else it was official at the time.


--------------------
> For that matter, I think very little of LDS
> doctrine actually qualifies as official anymore.
> It’s all subject to revision and correction.

Quite.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Granted, it is a widely accepted folk belief,
> and
> > it sounds like the sort of blather BY would
> spout
> > in the JoD, but I am skeptical that it is
> > “official”.
>
> BY said many times that every word that proceeded
> from his mouth was scripture, so if he said that
> in JoD or anywhere else it was official at the
> time.
>
>
> --------------------
> > For that matter, I think very little of LDS
> > doctrine actually qualifies as official
> anymore.
> > It’s all subject to revision and correction.
>
> Quite.

"Doctrine" is just a fancy way of saying teaching.

What leaders teach IS DOCTRINE, even if with an extremely short shelf life.

This is somewhat muddied by the 'Thus saith the Lord' qualifier that was once accepted but now abandoned- forgotten / denied- superceded by Bedknob.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual-2016/chapter-2?lang=eng

Wilford Woodruff

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1, “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto”; emphasis added).

Harold B. Lee

“You keep your eye upon him whom the Lord called, and I say to you now, knowing that I stand in this position, you don’t need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen”

Gordon B. Hinckley

“The Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church. God will not let his work be led astray” (“Be Not Deceived,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, 46; emphasis added).

Russell Nelson

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0030-follow-prophets-they-speak-for-god?lang=eng

See transcript or listen beginning at 1:48

Of course, is still doesn't answer the question of whether it is "official doctrine" or not. They all may have just been speaking as men.

> Of course, is still doesn't answer the question of
> whether it is "official doctrine" or not. They all
> may have just been speaking as men.

The church has us just where it wants. No one has any idea what is doctrine and what is just free association.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2023 09:15PM by Lot's Wife.

Official mormon doctrine is whatever they say it is at the present moment, and it will remain official doctrine until the moment they decide it isn't.

Yep.

That's what tyrannies do. They keep the rules unclear so they can prosecute, and persecute, anyone they want. Ultimate freedom and security for the state and its agents, limited or no freedom and security for the citizens.

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
—President J. Reuben Clark

“He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”
—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189

“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Well, it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world. Now, that’s the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that’s exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

My TBM mom read the essay's and it didn't change a thing for her. So what at the beginning they made some mistakes they had to learn. God allows men to make mistakes that's what free agency is for. My mom was not happy when she learned about polyandry but ultimately it made her believe even stronger. My mom "knows" the church is true because she has felt it. No evidence can go against her feeling that the lds church is true.

My wife and I found out about polyandry from Todd Compton and Grant Palmer, long b4 the Gospel Topics papers were published, which is one of the main reasons my formerly TBM wife finally left. When it came time to explain it to her Nazi TBM Mother she just said, ‘I know Mom, but Joseph Smith had sex with his followers wives.’ Her Mom’s response was,”I DON’T CARE IF JOSEPH SMITH STOOD ON HIS HEAD AND STACKED BB’s! WHATEVER HE DID WAS BETWEEN HIM AND GOD! WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE HIM?!?!”

My response: Uh, not adulterers who cheat on our spouses with our followers wives and teenage daughters as young as 14. It wasn’t between him and God, it was between him and the wives of his followers. He destroyed people’s lives by stealing their wives and kids and money from them. And you still sing his praises, knowing this?!?! We refuse to teach our children to sing the praises of a serial rapist!

My mom knows that Helen Mar Kimball was 14 when Joseph Smith married her but she assumes that they didn't do the deed. The marriage was to bind families together and not for intimacy so my mom says. I am happy to have left Mormonism and I enjoy drinking my cup of coffee every morning.

In her Temple Lot deposition decades later, she said that her marriage to JS was a marriage in every way.

That testimony is reproduced in the book Nauvoo Polygamy.

That wasn’t the conclusion Todd Compton came to, based upon the historical record.

It’s canonized scripture, Official Declaration 1,

“EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.”

(Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

Is that not official enough?

Obviously OD1 is a complete lie.
Obviously polygamy is still doctrine, they just don’t follow it because they don’t want the feds seizing their considerable assets.
But it is also an admission the past leaders of the church led Mormons astray by reintroducing one of the last vestiges of barbarism, polygamy, to the West and still expected respect as a “Christian” religion,

when it was just another perfect example of a horny and delusional young man fncking around and finding out you can’t go around lying, whoring and cheating your whole life and not wind up getting killed by an angry mob. Especially in America, especially in the Wild Wild West.
But instead of Mormons realizing that, they martyred him and made him their object of worship, and pretend they are worshipping Jesus, when it’s just Joseph and the other racist sexist abusive patriarchs who are fleecing the flock for the Lard.
And they still do.

Also the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon says King David was committing adultly having multiple wives.

D&C 132 says King David was not sinning for having multiple wives.

Most Mormons don’t really read their scriptures let alone a bunch of long/boring historical papers.

“the Essays were just Too Much Information for most mainstream members who read them. They raised more questions than they answered for most LDS readers. For a few who read them very carefully or who had a good knowledge base in LDS history and doctrine, they may have come across as misleading or worse.”

I was long gone by the time the internet and Mormon scholarship, FORCED LDS Inc to finally answer some of the more serious allegations by Mormon scholars, like Todd Compton and Grant Palmer. They couldn’t just remain silent. So they got together with their best lawyers money could buy and they carefully crafted those papers to cover their assets.
I see the essays as CYA letters.
Mormons can point to them and call antiMormons liars when they say the church hid things from them, like the fact Joseph Smith married 11 of his followers wives,
hell, not only did they admit Compton was right about Joseph marrying 11 of them, they upped the ante and made it 14!
So CHECKMATE ANTIMORMONS!
BUH BYE NOW!

But what they don’t talk about is the actual doctrine, the canonized scriptures they STILL consider the ‘Word of God’. Try finding a Mormon who doesn’t threaten to call security on you and have you removed from Temple Square if you want to talk about the Law of the Priesthood condemns polyandry as adultery 5x’s in one verse, D&C142:61

Yet you’ve got no problem singing the praises of a guy who violated the law 11 times, the one he said he got straight from God?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2023 09:55PM by schrodingerscat.

I think most Mormons who read the essays aren't fazed by them. A testimony is not based on facts. Also, church leaders past and present can literally do no wrong. They speak for God, so the notion of questioning them is nonsensical. The essays are then irrelevant.

One thing that strikes fear into the hearts of Mo Management is having the big wheels cross examined….Mark Hoffman for instance….they certainly didn’t want Big Tom onthetand in UK…and sure didn’t want Geordie asked the tough questions….I’ve always been curious what went on in chambers in the Phillips case….judge seemed to strike it down with extra vigor….was humorous to see the mighty concourse of lawyers sitting next to Tom and his council….one faithful member was vexed deeply that the church always settled with ndas and deep rugs….the embarrassment even Gordie caused on national tv was certainly enough I’d imagine

what about "Preach My Gospel"?

was that the latest (as of yrs ago) missionary guide?

>Harold B. Lee

>“You keep your eye upon him whom the Lord called, and I say to you now, knowing that I stand in this position, you don’t need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen”

It's quite the irony that Lee, the primary instigator of the Correlation Program, died suddenly, during a physical, no less, if I recall correctly, quite early in his term.

The GTE were what broke my shelf, merely having these controversial things admitted to on the one website I was told I could trust.

Whatever the reason they had for putting them up, if they do not openly teach about the seer stone, the "translation" of the BoA, the priesthood ban, the many wives of JS and BY, etc. If these things are not brought up in every class on the subjects in question and normalized as 1. common knowledge among members and 2. perfectly moral and righteous facts about the history of the church, then any time a member does stumble upon them and read them, they're going to encounter the same crossroads I did, where I repeatedly said, "No! That's not what I was taught! That's not what I have a testimony of!"

These things need to be mainstreamed and normalized among the membership if the church authority wants to truly inoculate them against anti-Mormon propaganda. They won't do that if their intent is to make the church itself copy mainstream Christianity and shave off the "weird" stuff from the past. So, they will constantly, every generation, will be taught things that contradict what is in the essays. So even with the essays there, if it's not taught in class, if they're made to believe Joseph was devoted to his wife, and translated the plates by looking at them, then when members discover the essays, they'll feel lied to, manipulated, and betrayed.

So yes, if the church wants to survive, it is a bad way for them to have their cake and eat it too. Because so long as they have that history yet refuse to teach it openly, it'll cause members to slough off the train cart every generation. Which I support. Either become a regular Christian church and less cult like, or stick the course and watch it slowly lose breath every day as youth leave and betrayed middle aged members remember what it used to be.

Well said!
Yes 100% to all of the above.
Like I said, it was the books that forced them to write those GTE’s that broke my shelf. Reading Todd Compton and Grant Palmer, especially.
I asked Grant at a Q&A after a talk he gave if after all the abuse he’d suffered at the hands of this abusive CULT, (they had disfellowshipped him for writing a well documented scholarly history book) did he still believe what he wrote in the conclusion of Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, that The Church was true, it just needed to focus of Joseph less and Jesus more. He said he did.
Everybody gasped!
One lady shouted out, but it’s a CULT!
Undeterred he went on to explain MORmONism wasn’t just a church, it was his tribe, his community, his family and he couldn’t just leave.
I went up and talked to him afterwards and it broke my heart what he told me. We talked all about Henry and Zina Jacobs, not Smith and NOT Young. How despicable it was to treat a fellow human being the way those two bastards treated Henry and Zina.
They stole his wife.
Then they stole his kids.
They stole everything from Henry.

Yeah, he said, “I’m too old to start over. You’re not.”

That broke my heart.
Then it made me angry, that they continue to abuse good people, scholars, like Grant Palmer.
Now it just makes me want to get even.
Now it just motivates me to see this Abusive CULT exposed for what it is, every chance I get I’m going to ask MORmONs,

And you sing the praises of a man with 32 secret wives why?
You name Universities after a racist serial rapist why?

>>...that The Church was true, it just needed to focus of Joseph less and Jesus more.

Perhaps Dusty Rusty read that book.