Just curious.

I am sure it probably has.

No annoying calls from a certain HP wanting me to come to church. He's since taken the dirt nap.

I redirected my tithing to my 401k and maxed it out the last several years of my career. It gave me a much better retirement income than tithing ever would have. I also freed myself of the horrible garments and that gave me personal bodily freedom that I didn't even realize I was missing. And THAT has made all the difference!

Nice!

How's France these days? Heard that it is awesome there from one of my subscribers about a month ago. Yes, I actually have subscribers on my YouTube channel. People just started subscribing on their own without me asking. Crazy I know.

Same. Like... In some aspects my life has gotten so much better. But since I left in 2020 the WORLD just keeps getting worse.

So now I am plagued by a dreadful knowing AND the world outside is on fire. It's hard to measure "better" when the standards of life are so uneven compared to before. I definitely am grateful that I'm no longer a believer through all this. How bound up, repressed, and anxious I'd be all the time. Mixed with delusion and disillusionment that I cannot name.

Amen.

Could the world move the goal posts any faster? And they don't just move them further but you never know where they are going to pop up next. Even behind you.

Long time ago for me but when I first left I soared.

Then after a while I hit a big plateau. The mormon BIC upbringing had left me with few life skills and I finally realized I had a lot to learn to make my way. I'm not sure I'm on par with others even to this day, but yes, at least I'm in the real game this time and not that phony baloney controlling church that robs you of a lot more than money.

Keep on keepin' on Adam.

I can definitely relate even with hitting a plateau.

> Then after a while I
> hit a big plateau ...


Is it possible to plateau at the mountain's peak?


...asking for a friend...

That's what mesas are for I think.

I've always liked what you bring to the table, Don Acabado & Acabado

Table! ahahaha. This is going down hill fast, Señor.

There's definitely something screwy about Utah. I'll naively play with some numbers.

Apparently, about 70,000 morons crossed the plains. Of course, these weren't single, totally unrelated individuals. To be kind, I'll call them couples with one kid each. So, 24,000 family units crossed the plains; 24,000 genetic lines popping out the next generation. But wait! Most pioneers were converted with other family members (true for most of my lines), so the pioneers themselves would have to be treated as the first crossing of the ancestors of the pioneers. I'll figure 12,000 genetic lines to play with when they got here. Actually, pioneers from Europe tended to be converted in groups in small towns, where they were probably related to begin with, but let's ignore that.

Factor in polygamy and what do we get? Of the first generation of women born in Deseret, I think ~30% were polygamous. Even if the sex ratio was 1 (and it was higher), we'd have to throw away the genetic lines of 30% of the men (except for the pool cleaner and milkman), so we're down to a gene pool of less than 10,000, in an endogamous, polygamous group in an isolated valley.

And then, polygamy strikes the next generation. The polygamous elite takes a new generation of attractive European women and pumps them full of royal sperm from a small pool. Less attractive women are given to the rank-and-file members as monogamous wives. BY alone starts 50+ "royal" lines which really ought to avoid each other.

Next generation (last official polygamous generation): the attractive daughters of the attractive pioneers are distributed among the royalty again; elite Mormon inbreeding begins.

By 1900, we're down to around 1000 uncrossed genetic lines. This isn't going to end well, is it?

To summarize, if you're in your mid-thirties to early forties, of pure pioneer stock without a drop of royal blood, and you pick up a drunk Daughter of Utah Pioneers, also non-royalty, in a bar, there's only a (1 - 999!/991! / 1000!/992!) = 0.9% chance you're doing your cousin (2nd or closer). Isn't that what everyone really wanted to know?

Edit: How embarrassing. It's 1-992!/984! / 1000!/992!, selecting 8 non-identical random great-grandparents from a pool of 1000 unrelated lines, or a 6.2% chance you're doing your cousin.

Ugg..

While I suspect that some pockets of Mormons in isolated areas may have suffered from inbreeding, the general numbers you cite are far larger than necessary to avoid such problems.

Throughout the vast majority of human history people routinely mated with their relatives. Recall that most hunter-gatherer clans numbered less than 200 individuals--the most that could be sustained in a manageable territory-and that the reproductive population would have been less than half of that. Moreover, any inter-community exchanges would have occurred with neighboring, and therefore probably related, groups. In such clans there would have been far fewer than "1,000 unrelated lines" and possibly as few as a dozen or less.

We also know that hominin populations have at various points in the geological record barely survived. Nearly a million years ago, for example, the total number of breeding humans fell to less than 1,300 individuals and stayed there for roughly 100,000 years.* The actual breeding groups would have been considerably smaller than 1,300 because, especially in environmentally precarious conditions, the upper limit on clan size must have been significantly below the normal range of close to 200.

So you end up with relatively isolated families/clans/tribes of perhaps 100-150 individuals, less than half of whom are reproductive--and that situation persists for thousands of generations. In most of those groups the number of distinct genetic "lines" would be close to unity within a few centuries. In short, while the notion of sleeping with one's cousin is unsettling, in human history it is probably more "normal" than the way we live today.

Where this gets interesting is the possibility that the near extinction may have driven the separation of the ancestors of homo sapiens sapiens on the one hand and of Denisovans/Neanderthals on the other. Because if you take that hypothetical population of 1,300 and divide it into two or more clusters of groups separated by geography or climate, the founder effect would become salient and the groups would genetically diverge. A bottleneck at 900,000 years ago would fit nicely with the genetic record of a separation between HSS and HD/HN around 750,000 years ago.



* Sources:

ETA: The original publication.

https://www.science.org/action/downloadSupplement?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.abq7487&file=science.abq7487_sm.pdf


Secondary sources:

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-faced-a-close-call-with-extinction-nearly-a-million-years-ago

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/human-ancestors-were-near-extinction-some-900000-years-ago-says-study/ar-AA1gbbmm

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/31/science/human-survival-bottleneck.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2023 02:00AM by Lot's Wife.

inbreeding

outbreeding

intobreeding

abovebreeding

acrossbreeding

againstbreeding

alongbreeding

amongbreeding

beforebreeding

behindbreeding

belowbreeding

beneathbreeding

betweenbreeding

downbreedikng

nearbreeding

offbreeding

underbreeding

. . .

poorly bred

ill bred

lacking in bread

. . .

I've always had a thing for bread heads...

Cooooorny

...saying this for a friend.

You can read it both ways:
1
Mormons were selected for credulous types given to mental illness
vs
The weaker physical specimens were weeded out by long sea voyages and journeys across the plains.

2
Mormons descend from a small founder population of interrelated families
vs
Mormons descended from a diverse population which was continually added to by new converts

Wow, this post is way out of place haha. Kind of reminds me of my random posts that made absolutely no sense back in the day.

Life has improved steadily, albeit with an occasional bump on the road.

Yet, 40--yes 40--years after leaving the church, DH is still getting grief from some of his relatives. One of them, who is the slimiest of all but now apparently a bishop, is telling DH that following a family get-together he has to go to church the next day and, not only that, he has to wear church appropriate clothes. After making jokes on a family chat, DH finally had to call the Bishop out. No more. And despite little digs etc he ignored the Bishop on the rest of the discussion.

So later, the Bish sends DH a private message--not really apologizing--but willing to cut it out. We'll see how it goes.

So decades later, we rejoice that such people can't regain the control they once had.

As I read about the issues and controversies, I realize that if I hadn't left when I did, I would have left later, over and over again.

Thanks to RFM for letting me vent now and again. I appreciate all of you fellow travelers, and I miss the ones who can no longer be with us. Or who have moved on.

I do all the same things I did before I left, except the church related things. So yes, it has improved proportionally with how much I hated doing church stuff.

I am similar in that I cut out church stuff but other things stayed the same in my life.

So later, the Bish sends DH a private message--not really apologizing--but willing to cut it out.

That's classic passive aggressive behavior. A true narcissist will say that.

I don't have that huge burden for one to save the "ex." I don't have to go to church or pay tithing. So many other things. My siblings are all out now. My daughter of course is the only one of the grandkids still in the church and her husband is mormon, but he's great. He isn't your typical TBM and neither are his parents. They live 3 blocks away and I've known for over 35 years now.

There are always problems. I don't know if anyone is free from problems, though some of my old mormon ward members from Brigham would want you to think otherwise.

I always tend to think that everyone else's life is going better than mine and then I find out something and it blows my mind. There is always something. You never know.

I remember one time I said on here that I don't need to be happy. I just want my life to be level. No ups, no downs. Gemini, also who came from a history like I did, agreed. I don't need to have a big wonderful happy life with lots of money, etc. Just peace.

My life has been a roller coaster for the past year or so. As my therapist said when I said Murphy's Law one of them says "If you think things couldn't possibly get worse, you will be proven wrong." He said my mom said, "SHHHH! Don't say things like that out loud. They seem to hear." Yep. I don't say them anymore. Not like I believe those things, BUT . . . I certainly didn't plan on all the stuff that has happened in my life.

As the therapist said we tested mormonism to its limits and it failed us. I didn't have to know the history. I learned by life experience.

>> I always tend to think that everyone else's life is going better than mine and then I find out something and it blows my mind. There is always something. You never know.

A friend who was a longtime mental health counselor put it this way, "Everyone has holes in their socks."

I believe I agree with you with just wanting to be level and have peace.

Background: BIC -> Powerful Testimony of Cheerios in Nursery -> Got early start at being in clenches of Correlation program -> Got my brain completely washed by immersion by this beloved program -> reached the super mature age of 8 years old -> made lifelong commitment to obey Church -> told to receive wholly ghostings when I got confirmed -> any difficult questions I ever got in life was me receiving wholly ghostings by the Church on my questions as promised in confirmation -> Correlation program kept me focused on being loyal/obedient to that commitment I made when I was super mature 8 -> my brain is completely wired the Correlation way -> enduring to the end :)

Well, due to how my brain is peculiarly programmed, I could never possibly ever think of any way that my life could be improved if I left the [long] way of doing things. Right now all I can ever seriously think about is obeying the Holy Nelson and other overlords as I endure to the end. Then in the eternities if I've been a good little Sunbeam I'll be spending all time/eternity nonstop cleaning out tens of billions of message in my SPAM box every day as my spirit kiddies will need their prayers answered. Those of you who love SPAM mail like I do will understand the joy this will bring for the rest of time/eternity instead of having to be stuck in some 5* resort for all time/eternity damned in the Terrestrial kingdom with all the exmos who rejected Joseph Smith's wondrous Restoration and thus they don't get their SPAM boxes without number of prayers to answer.

Thanks to how the Correlation program has wired my brain I feel so sorry for the exmos for how they will miss out on the joys of Exaltation.

Every day 24/7 nonstop for all time/eternity there will be message boxes as innumerable as the sands of all the seas that'll be full of billions and trillions of prayers and other supplications from our Spirit children. Since each of them will need to be answered then we'll be super busy. That's the great joy that awaits all of us who can gain Exaltation.

So, it just doesn't make sense to the Correlated brain how anyone could think that their life would improve if they don't have the Church. This vision of Exaltation is super appealing for all of us who love to read SPAM messages 24/7 for all eternity :) So, imagine what your life would be like if your brain thought like this and you might think "gosh my life would not be improved if I didn't think the wondrous peculiar Correlation way anymore".

About that super huge SPAM box with trillions of new messages every day its not just going to be Reading the messages. On each of them I'm going to need to respond, solve problems, and follow up to make sure I'm doing my job. This super busy assignment with just be 24/7 for all time and eternity. This super appealing activity is called Exaltation. How pathetic for those who will be missing out on all the fun for eternity.

Man, honest TBM is still alive I see after all this time.

Sunday mornings are great. I live in accordance of my own rules and needs. Once you experience freedom, you would never go back.

I had to remove Jesus from my life because his leaf blower was just too damn loud!

And is it really "cursing" if God and Jesus H. Christ aren't real people?

And what if there really are "fiddle sticks," and they keep track of when you take their name in vain and will make you pay for the dishonor you've heaped upon them?  What if being beaten within an inch of my life by angry "fiddle sticks" is a real thing?

What if indeed that could be really bad old dog.

I wish Jesus would stop cracking jokes about Jesus. It gets confusing.

I feel I missed a lot of inside jokes about Jesus while I was away it seems like.

It's simple, Adam.

EOD's given name is Jesus, pronounced "hey Zeus" as you might hear at the local Chavez Market. Often I take the liberty of referring to him by his first name, which leads to some confusion as people may think I am speaking of the Jewish rabbi whose name was, and is, spelled identically.

Sadly, the nominal similarity--surely there's a causal relationship somewhere in there--occasionally leads to confusion. Consider these examples:

1) "Jesus thinks Jesus is a real disappointment." There's no remedy to this ambiguity.

2) It is also confusing when someone observes that "Jesus Saves," so when possible I try to add explanatory phrases like "by going to Costco."

3) However, sometimes the uncertainty doesn't matter because either reading works, as in "Jesus cursed Jesus" or "Jesus cursed Jesus."

I hope that clarifies things. If you're ever in doubt, feel free to ask. And until then,

Praise Jesus.

Is his given name really Jesus? Or is that just a joke. That would be crazy if it was true.

Jesus is a very common first name in Hispanic countries. In Brazil, "Maria Jesus" and "Jesus Maria" were also pretty common, and could be attached to people of either sex. That always confused me.

That's true you make a good point. I thought it was old dog's temple given name that's why I thought it would be pretty crazy. I am easily wowed I guess.

I don't know EOD's first name and if I did, he'd have to kill me.

So all I can say is that as a fine Lemonite prophet, his name should be Jesus.

And besides, "Jesus" is easier to remember than Gluteus Maximiliano.

DEFINITELY easier to remember than gluteus maximus.

And it gives extra meaning to the question, WWJD?

Not exactly sure what that means.

WWJD means "What would Jesus do?"

Clearly the answer depends on whether Jesus is a peripatetic rabbi or a Latino with fuzzy dice hanging from his rear view mirror. . .

Or does it?

Depends on the mood of Jesus at the time I suppose also. Who knows? Jesus is still a confusing topic for me till this day and the fact that it's old dog's name makes it even more confusing.

Thanks for explaining that acronym or those initials as well. I remember when I did not even know what TBM meant back in the day haha.

It's a flexible formula. You could write, for example, WWAD?

The answer? Only you know for sure.

Jesusa is also a variation. She's one of my coworkers.

Yes tremdously