https://youtu.be/KBhy_vlgKS4?si=8NsUYAUyTSCt0P7T

I don’t agree with Senator John Kennedy on anything, but he read from children’s books describing in graphic detail, very adult sex acts, and asked witnesses testifying against censorship in schools if they thought parents should have a say in what is in their children’s school libraries or should it be up to individual librarians?

One said it was currently decided by committee.
Popular opinion of the simple majority of chosen representatives.

He didn’t ask who gets to choose the representatives, but instead asked, so who ultimately decides? The Librarian? Do parents get a say in what is available to their kids in school libraries? Do we take a poll? Who conducts the poll?


It’s a tough question and I’m usually squarely on the side of free speech and non-censorship and exposing kids to meaningful literature as soon as they are interested in reading it. I don’t think too many elementary school kids are interested in reading “Catcher In The Rye” or “Gender Queer” in ES. But I don’t think I’d object to my kid reading those passages in the context of whole stories at any age. What the Sen did was to pick the most graphic passages he could find in any children’s books and read them out of context, in the context of a Senate hearing, which makes them sound obscene and perverse in that context.

Which was why Davis County banned the Bible.

Passages of rape, incest, murder and violent death was deemed inappropriate for elementary aged kids.

Then people who were using that passage criteria suddenly wanted to use a context based judgement.

Reading stuff that makes you horny can get old after about 90 to 100 years.  Or so I fear...

Return & Report, eod...

Restricting content in school libraries isn't an affront to free speech. The first amendment is subject to time, place, and manner restrictions. School libraries are not open to the general public and serve a specific purpose, which is to support the educational goals of the school. So, as much as parents should have a say in how their kids are taught, they should have a say in what books are found in the school library.

I agree:

there are other paths available for most students & parents who desire other books & materials.

It's not a difficult question at all.

If a book is read at a school board meeting, and the parent reading it is told to stop reading because it sounds like p0rn, then it shouldn't be in the library.

Graphic violence or sexual content is not for children - in ANY context.

Others make good points about passages in the Bible. But it's even simpler. Separation of church and state. That means the bible does not belong in public (tax funded) school libraries.

Teaching children about religion (or not) is the responsibility of the parents, not schools. If you really want your children to be in a school that has a Bible in their library, send them to a private (not tax funded) school where every parent agrees that the Bible should be in the library.

Just trying to think of this in terms of first principles, and not see it through an emotional lens.

LOL you have been out of the US for too long. We don't do that church/state thing these days. Ten Commandments in classrooms, public school prayer - it's insane. And one of the horrible banned books is Charlotte's Web. From an award winning book, beloved for generations, to BANNED.

Every school year I would read Charlotte's Web to my 2nd and 3rd graders. I consider it to be one of the finest children's novels ever written, and one of the best ways to teach about the power of kindness and friendship. It also teaches kids to not be so afraid of spiders, since most spiders are non-poisonous and beneficial to humans.

Having read it so very many times, I can't remember a single objectionable thing in that book!

Wrong spot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 02:03AM by summer.

My kids had it read to them and watched the movie many times when they were young. I didn't know I was sharing something that is banned for kids now.

I remember they had issues over some books when I was in school. Someone mentioned Catcher in the Rye. I was never assigned that book, but my sister was, and it was during the big controversy. There were some books that I don't remember names of that I had read and they had removed from the library--and I wasn't reading anything questionable at all.

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL you have been out of the US for too long. We
> don't do that church/state thing these days. Ten
> Commandments in classrooms, public school prayer -
> it's insane. And one of the horrible banned books
> is Charlotte's Web. From an award winning book,
> beloved for generations, to BANNED.

Susan, and I plan to stay out for a lot longer.

I might have some "spectrum" tendencies because I take things very literally. I don't get married to an idea. I care more about what the law says, even if I don't agree.

T-Bone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Others make good points about passages in the
> Bible. But it's even simpler. Separation of church
> and state. That means the bible does not belong in
> public (tax funded) school libraries.


Bull poopies. The Bible has more cultural relevance in America than any other book. It's not just a religious text. It absolutely belongs in public school libraries.

+1

So too the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, and any number of other religious books. And Shakespeare should be in there, too, despite the sexuality and violence. If I were a teacher and saw kids snickering over "maidenheads" in Romeo and Juliette, I'd be ecstatic.

There's a difference between having culturally and artistically significant works in school and community libraries and having the state dictate terms. And no single parent should be able to superimpose her views on what is available to the community

The truth is much of this is roiled for political purposes. I mean seriously, who thinks that Lauren Boebert has ever darkened the entryway to a library other than to cause trouble? Who thinks that Matt Gaetz has a library card?

LW I think you are right. There is a vast difference between the mention of sexual acts and the graphic description of them. Often those screaming for books to be banned cant, or refuse, to see the difference. I think perhaps it becomes more about a display of personal zeal than discernment or anything else.

I don't really object to a system of review, but that must be done via an established body of people who are experienced. The possibility that some ass will get upset and start striking books that the vast majority of parents either support or don't care about is absurd.

Generic Karen has no right to impose her views on everyone else in local communities or in the national community.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://youtu.be/KBhy_vlgKS4?si=8NsUYAUyTSCt0P7T

These conversations would be much more interesting if we agreed to watch the video before discussing. I actually watched the video because it came up in my YouTube suggested videos.

I just wonder how many of the posters who have an opinion actually watched the video before discussing it.

Gender queer is a book made for adults and I can't find anywhere that it was recommended for children.

All Boys Aren't Blue is recommended for ages 14-18 which, considering the scene read, I think is fine. It's not gratuitous what he read, it was very bare bones description, very sterile, and it is a part of a larger memoir about a young man growing up. I'm wondering when exactly people want teens to start having access to real information. Like, if you're gay and 14 and having feelings, where are you supposed to understand yourself and what you're going through? Parents aren't all good at their jobs. A lot of them are ignorant and unintentionally oppressive.

14-18 is the age range where these people are starting to take shape, are starting to transition into adulthood. We can't be scared of them knowing things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 03:25PM by blackcoatsdaughter.

This is a complicated question that the video demonstrates quite well. Some of the issues include: What is pornographic and vulgar. Who makes that determination. Should there be community standards that differ from school to school and from community to community or should there be a national standard. Does a single parent have the right to object to the presence of a book in a school's library when a majority of other parents don't have a problem with that book. Should parents be involved in the selection of books initially or should they become involved *only after* the book(s) they dislike show(s) up in the school's library.

And then there are some even more basic questions to consider. Should parent(s) have the right to object to books because the book(s) in question criticize or raise questions about the religious and social views of the parents.

I don't have all of the answers, but a few thoughts. First, parents, whether they act as individuals or in groups, should have no role other than an advisory one in the selection of books available in school libraries. This is why librarians are hired. If the parents don't like the choices the librarian(s) is/are making, then the goal should be to seek to replace the librarian(s).

After books have been selected, parents as a group should have the right to raise concerns about the book's contents. However, an individual parent should have no right whatsoever to have a book banned from the school library for any reason--there are too many different agendas involved even among and between parents and having only one parent objecting to a book should never be sufficient to have that book removed from a school's library. To have a book removed from any school's library should come as the response of many parents representing a majority of parents in the school district.

The graphic nature of the two books Mr. Kennedy read from reminded me of a television series that ran for one season (if memory serves) in the mid-1980s. The series was called "Charles In Charge,", and it was a comedy about an 18-year-old male babysitting the three kids of a rich couple who worked and did many other things together without their children being present. Anyway, in the season opener, the female parent tells this new babysitter: "Don't worry about what the children know--we have cable television." The translation, of course, is that the kids in the show, along with many others outside of it, were learning things that perhaps some of their parents rather they not learn from watching cable TV. What I'm saying is that if you take away the books, the children will in many cases find out what they are not supposed to know from other sources--and those other sources may be even more inaccurate than the book(s) the parents are objecting to.

Yes, up to a point to be determined; parents must be responsible for their children in all sorts of ways, wchildren (all people) need to be selective about which thoughts - ideas are admitted into their brains 'thinking'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 01:05AM by GNPE.

Some parents are under the impression that schools can teach children how to read without any supplemental reading time. Educated parents know this, and they regularly take their children to the public library and/or buy them lots of books. Classroom teachers at the elementary and middle schools level maintain classroom libraries, and build free-reading time into their schedules in order to promote literacy. This is also the purpose of school libraries.

When I taught 2nd grade, I could have most of my students reading novels by the end of the school year simply by giving them access to lots of fun and interesting books along with a good chunk of free reading time each day. I am good at teaching phonics and other reading skills, but it takes more than that. The kids need practice time as well. They need time to fall in love with reading. My classroom library had more than 600 books.

In the current climate, teachers in Florida and Texas have been required to box up their classroom libraries due to parent nuttiness. The uneducated and illiterate are now running the show in certain places.

In the (likely) event that not all parents agree, which parent(s) should get to make the decision? Those who scream the loudest?

Consider this situation

https://kutv.com/news/crisis-in-the-classroom/small-group-of-parents-utilizing-new-law-to-ban-books-in-utah-school-libraries

"Using public records requests and a report from the Utah State Board of Education, we discovered that a little more than three dozen parents across the state have lodged complaints.

In one school district, Granite, a West Valley City couple was behind nearly every complaint filed with the district. Of the 205 filings, Nick and Hailey Foster were behind 199 of them.

Outside of Granite, only 35 parents have filed complaints against books, most of them in Davis County where UPU is headquartered.

Of those complaints, Brooke Stephens, the curriculum director for UPU, tells 2News she has personally filed 27 challenges to books on Davis County school library shelves."

I’m old. In my day teachers hit you with a stick and principals paddled you. Kids nowadays sleep with the teacher and read books about sex. We did have National Geographic in the library.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m old. In my day teachers hit you with a stick
> and principals paddled you. Kids nowadays sleep
> with the teacher and read books about sex. We did
> have National Geographic in the library.

So did we! But I was around years ago and one of my teachers (female) was sleeping with one of my classmates.

Let's look at this another way... shouldn't parents be recommending books to children's libraries? It would be more useful for them to have books teaching children other languages or basic physics/chemistry than some twisted trash telling underage kids to experiment sexually.

Ha. Parents suggesting books. What one parent recommends another parent will ban. What a joke. How many books would depict Adam and Eve with dinosaurs if some parents had their way.

What if the library had everything, EVERYTHING, but children had to have parental permission for books? That way no one has to censor anyone else? We have a "a battle for control" problem in this country.

Also, then kids who read something could share information with the ones whose parents wouldn't let them read certain books and the kids could be more themselves.

" . . . twisted trash telling underage kids to experiment sexually." ???

There is this odd idea with some people that just because a kid reads something regarding sex that they are automatically going to do it. It's just not true across the board. Kids end up having raging hormones whether they want them or not and are going to do stuff and having no information at all about sex or religiously skewed information is when things go horribly wrong. I wish I had known more not less.

Suppression is reinforcement.Always has been. Always will be.

>> Kids nowadays sleep with the teacher

Unlike church workers or volunteers with "callings," teachers are required to sign a paper saying that they've undergone training, and that they understand if they molest a student and are found out, they will be turned over to the police. They will lose their jobs and likely go to jail. Teachers are also required to turn in colleagues who they suspect are molesting students, also under threat of firing if they do not. When you hear about the occasional transgression in the news, it's because that particular teacher was turned in by *someone*.

Rubicon, did you have any callings involving children or youth? Were you required by the Mormon church to undergo training, or to sign a similar paper?

I think that we can all agree that it would be nice if the Mormon church would have stringent policies and procedures, similar to the public schools.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 08:29AM by summer.

Ha ha. Funny. The memories. It's never been perfect then or now. You remind me the details change.

Our parents supported teachers. That is different now. Back then they were okay with the "board of education". I never saw anyone get hit hard. It was supposed to embarrass you more than anything. And having to stay after school and go home on the late bus did make you want to behave.


But we did get the 3R's heavily along with the National Geographic. Which reminds me--regarding selection of books. The Sears and Roebucks catalogue would have to be banned nowadays. Such fun for budding curiosities.

We still teach the 3Rs heavily. My school system is desperate to get kids reading, and their other skills on track as well. Administrators are throwing everything they've got at it.

The Sears catalogue, lol! Those bra and negligee photos were something else.

Yes. Sears and Roebuck! Greased the imagination, right? Now they have to make do with Victoria's Secret I guess and no imagination required.

Glad to hear about the 3r's. With some of our younger hires I had to wonder. I guess sometimes all you can do is offer the information. I am grateful for the teachers who inspire as well. *That* is an art.

Knowledge is also empowering for youths.

I tried like hell to find a story I read on reddit and I know I'm going to butcher it. But it was about a little girl who was around 8-9, who's mom took her to a library to check out a book. One of the ones she chose was a book about body autonomy and consent geared towards kids.

When she got to the chapter about abuse and bad touching, she took the book to her mom and said "this is happening to me." She hadn't had the language nor the knowledge that it was wrong to tell her mom that her stepfather had been abusing her at night.

When I hear about parents wanting to ban books, I think about that little girl and similar stories and what tools are being removed from their ability to communicate. I think about how maladaptive and cruel some parents desires are to control their "babies" like property. As if they can be kept in a box and pop out at 18 just perfectly normal. As if there won't be a stunting effect.

Great point. We’re coddling our kids by protecting them from the big bad ugly world out there. Jonathan Haight and Greg Lukianof wrote a great book about that phenomenon,” The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure”

https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897?nodl=1&dplnkId=f242fe59-1cfb-4689-afb7-d82afef18b91

“Scientists discover dangerous link between book learnin’, back talk”

https://www.theonion.com/scientists-discover-dangerous-link-between-book-learnin-1833405845



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 09:53AM by schrodingerscat.

You do realize that the Onion is satire

I thought that’d be apparent.
My bad, yeah, satire.
I thought it was funny

Are all parents good parents?

The supposition that parents know best for their children is a joke as no two parents are alike. Which makes the idea that parents should have the right to choose what their children can and cannot know very problematic.

Withholding information is how innocent people end up in jail as some judge decides what information can be entered. I have known enough judges to know they will all rule differently to each other. That's why it matters who ends up on the Supreme Court.

It's more complicated than choosing books.

I only knew I wasn't the only gay kid because I got a hold of a LIFE magazine article in the Library as a young teen. Our all Mormon county library. That issue would be banned in schools today if some parents could.

I learned that there is more to life than "Just do not do that."

Who wants that woman parent from Utah who was duct taping her kid to be choosing?

Majority is a very scary word.

+100

Parent isn't a protected class, it is a privilege that can be removed by the state. I think idolizing parenthood as this supreme position of knowing what is best needs some more checks and balances in our society. Especially if we're going to remove people's ability to opt out of the role so that any 12 year old could become one.

"If a parent is in complete control of what his or her double-digit aged child is reading, it says more about the child than it does about the parent."
       
        --Judic West, Troublemaker & Daniel Boone Companion

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If a parent is in complete control of what his or
> her double-digit aged child is reading, it says
> more about the child than it does about the
> parent."
>        
>         --Judic West, Troublemaker &
> Daniel Boone Companion

I'm afraid, EOD, that Mr. West may have gotten this backwards. Knowing what the parent doesn't want his/her two-digit age child to read says a hell of a lot more about the parent's expectations than anything about the child involved.

After consulting with Mr. West, he agrees that your point of view has some validity but still feels that judgment regarding the child is as important as the judgment on the parent, and perhaps more so.

Because few people will have any expectations regarding changes occurring in the parents' outlooks, with just the opposite view regarding the kids.  Hope springs eternal*...



*If only I'd named my daughters Hope and Joy...

Boone companion, Yo Mama?

You must have been up late last night.

*Poof*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2023 03:28PM by Lot's Wife.

No, but I agree with not having sexual material in grade school. To censor the books that teenagers read is a crime. They can handle it.

"but he read from children’s books describing in graphic detail, very adult sex acts,"

Which "children's books were these, do you have an example? Children's books can mean anything from 1st to 12th grade.

That's right. I've seen things claimed by conservatives, but they watch Glen Beck.

In the video the Senator reads excerpts from two book, Gender queer, and All Boys Aren't Blue, recommended for ages 14-18

Kids' Library?- Yes..

Regular library for everyone?- No

Yes, yes they should.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know the name of the book?

the video the Senator reads excerpts from two book, Gender queer, and All Boys Aren't Blue, recommended for ages 14-18

If not the parents, who else should select which materials are included/ prohibited?

People's confidence in government is tanking / has tanked, let's be real about that.

Do you consider librarians "government?" How about gym teachers?