Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 10:56AM

I ran into some wiki pages about Jesus turning water into wine. There seems to be a debate about whether it was alcoholic or non-alcoholic. I honestly was not aware of the debate.

The wedding at Cana, Christian tradition based on John 2:11 holds that this is the first public miracle of Jesus. The wedding ran out of wine so Jesus turned water into wine.

What is not said in the scriptures was that Jesus stopped making wine because he just made bad wine. I believe it was 3.2 wine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 10:59AM

Wine is allowed to continue fermenting, which results in alcoholic drinks. Grape juice is the result of unfermented grapes and contains much higher levels of sugar.

As a member, I never thought to debate or argue this point.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 12:00PM

‘New wine, old bottles’

such are the nuances of being/ living LDS - Mormon…

just sayin’

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 07:18PM

GNPE Wrote:
> ‘New wine, old bottles’
> such are the nuances of being/ living LDS -
> Mormon…
> just sayin’

Was explained to use in Priesthood as "cleanliness at that time was not good so this prevented re-using bottles/containers that might be contaminated".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 12:38PM

It's all just clever translating by some bible scribe who wanted to add some pizazz and punch some of the dull verses up--which is most of them.

I checked the JS Corrected Bible and it said, "Yea, verily, when Jesus sawest that the wine runneth low he watereth it down."

Just the same as he cut some fish and bread into the tiniest pieces imaginable to feed the multitudes of about 20 or so people.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 02:05PM

The people who say Jesus only drank grape juice because that's all they had back then have no problem labeling Laban a wine-drinking alcoholic who deserved to have his head cut off.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 04:01PM

It would not have been grape juice since there was no refrigeration to store it. Absent proper storage, the grape juice would have started to ferment. It had to have been wine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 07:19PM

So, they drank it faster after he made the change.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 04:11PM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 04:47PM

On a side note, if this really happened then Jesus would have been the most famous person in the entire Roman empire. But... crickets.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 05:06PM

What a conundrum. If only Joseph had thought to leave wine out of the WoW. He really backed the Mormons into a corner with that one.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 05:48PM

If Jesus turned water into non-alcoholic wine, that was was a waste of a perfectly good miracle and probably pissed off the people at the wedding.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 27, 2023 08:30PM

I've heard Baptist ministers yammering on about this same thing, that it wasn't really alcoholic wine.

Why does the Bible caution against drunkenness if they were only drinking grape juice?

I don't think the Bible says any where not to drink wine. That's just what teetotalers WISH it said.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Industrial plant based ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 05:40AM

Yes and no.

Yes, it would have been alcoholic but no, it wouldn't have been as strong as a lot of wine is today.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 01:21PM

The Word of Wisdom really wasn’t enforced hard in the church until the 1920’s. Many members drank coffee and tea. Porter Rockwell drank alcohol and he was in good standing.

Modern Mormonism makes a bigger deal of it.

Let’s be real. In a warm climate with no refrigeration you are only going to have grape juice when the grapes are pressed. Tat grave juice is going to ferment quick.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: October 02, 2023 09:49AM

Wine, beer, coffee, and tobacco were part of everyday life for my grandparents and great grandparents in their little Utah alpine village. As was polygamy. When polygamy went, focus on the WoW replaced it for virtue signalling.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: lapsed2 ( )
Date: October 03, 2023 10:16AM

1920 was when prohibition was sweeping the U.S.
and the church followed along.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 03:09PM

Why would anyone that can make wine make it non-alcoholic?

Just stop after the juices are pressed out and don't let the fermentation start.... it's called grape juice.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 07:26PM

Jesus also made the grape juice ice cold.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 08:54PM

Yes. He probably already brought ice for all the fish. He didn't have a BBQ handy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 09:17PM

Lucifer grilled the fish

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonynon ( )
Date: October 01, 2023 10:22PM

Jesus was Jewish. Wine is an important part in Jewish life, there's even a specific blessing over wine (Baruch ata Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, boreh p'ri hagafen. Blessed are You, God, Ruler of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine) Wine is necessary for ushering in the sabbath, and also plays a part in Passover, Sukkot, Purim, and many other holidays.

Excessive alcohol consumption is part of the story of purim, and those who observe it are encouraged to drink till they're so drunk, they can no longer discern the wicket (the holiday villan, haman) and the righteous (the hoiday hero, mordechai). It's like a drunken costume party with the best cookies in the world.

There are accounts in the NT of jesus observing/celebrating holidays including the ones above. We know he drank wine on passover, because the last supper took place at a passover seder.

As for the other celebrations, the NT talks about him participating in the celebrations and in both matt and luke, he is referred to a winebiber.

As for whether it was alcoholic in biblical times... wine literally means fermented grape juice. It would have had to have been fermented. The alcohol content probably depended on how long it was left to ferment. Allegedly, he drank a relatively quickly fermented wine, which resulted in a lower alcoholic content, but still alcoholic. If the wine was made for drunkenness before his time,it wasn't changed for his time. The bible obviously has no prohibition alcohol, drinking beer is even encouraged.

Finally, if the bible is to be believed as a true, historical work, then you need to look no further than Noah, the world's first viticulturist, vintner and semi-functional alcoholic.

If biblical wine got people drunk during the wine-related holidays, I think it's fair to say it was alcoholic, though maybe no stronger than a wine cooler for the quick fermented stuff.
It would have been impossible to keep grape juice for any extended period of time, it would ferment by default with no preservatives or refrigeration in a hot climate. There's a lot of archaeological evidence to confirm that the hebrews/ancient jews drank wine, and no evidence to support the idea that it was grape juice. Something that takes a lot of hard work only to go off and ferment a day later.

Evangelicals like to insist on the grape juice thing, but they have their own, non-scriptural reasons.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: October 02, 2023 05:28AM

"Noah, the world's first viticulturist, vintner and semi-functional alcoholic."

Noah: How long have we been at sea?
Naamah: About 16 days
Noah: How much wine is left?
Naamah: At the rate you're consuming about 10 days.
Noah: Dam. Oh well, slaughter a unicorn and I'll get a nice red for dinner.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: October 02, 2023 09:39AM

Another interpretation is that the wine is a metaphor for the teachings of Jesus. At a celebration, good wine would be served first. If the party went on, older, vinegary wine would be served. Guests by then might be a little tipsy and less likely to notice or care about the quality of wine.

Jesus taught at the wedding feast and the guests were intoxicated by what they heard. The quality of the wine (the teachings) was of the first and best pouring. He had turned simple water into something delicious and mind altering.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: October 02, 2023 11:51PM

The wedding at Cana. It is a parable, like Sufi teaching stories, as is everything in the Bible. This was the ancient way of conveying psychological understanding--but only to those who were ready to see. Still, metaphorical and allegorical readings were common among the "literate" then...and we, comparatively, have become illiterate. All the Jesus teaching was/is about awakening to a higher level of understanding.

There are 3 stages of Truth in this story.
First, the stone vessels--stone represents the literal level of truth. What children are taught. The outer meaning. Fundamentalism.

Second, the servants are directed to fill the vessels with water--representing meaning. What good are literal facts if we don't understand what they mean? This is a higher stage.

Finally, the water-filled vessels were taken to the wedding host, who tasted and pronounced them "good" (and chided the servants for saving the good for the last--usually the best is served first, and the lesser is served later when the palates are not so discriminating). Thus third, the wine represents the good. What is the real value of something, including spiritual teaching, if one doesn't know what to do with it for the world's benefit? Even the keenest 'understanding' needs heart to guide it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: matt ( )
Date: October 02, 2023 02:07PM

Hey, t-total fanatics, if you are correct, how come Jesus didn't turn the wine into water? Oops!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 03, 2023 09:55AM

Haha. I know. Jesus making wine for the guests is aiding and abetting. This makes Jesus just another enabler,

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 03, 2023 12:53PM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 03:30PM

I think dirty soda would be more popular with his one true base.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **   *******   ********   **     **  ******** 
  **   **   **     **  **     **  **     **  **    ** 
   ** **    **         **     **  **     **      **   
    ***     ********   **     **  **     **     **    
   ** **    **     **  **     **  **     **    **     
  **   **   **     **  **     **  **     **    **     
 **     **   *******   ********    *******     **