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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 06:56AM

I have three cousins who have the appearance of success, but only because they married women who were at least twice the moral stature of my cousins.

Women in the Mormon Church are conditioned to be subservient. Bright ones basically play the role brilliantly, both managing their husband and a family.

Mormon men who are smart enough to know what’s happening, see the glaring issues as missionaries, but then return, get their dental, doctor, lawyer, engineer, business degrees, obtain comfy jobs, and then spend the rest of their lives going through the motions.

They are nothing but puppets on strings, though they pretend to be real.

Truth is, many know deep down inside they are complete shams, but faking it, is their option of choice, the option of cowards.

The less capable men, just let their wives run the show, and they just play the nice guy role that all the kids love.

Life should be more meaningful than that. Yet for so many, it isn’t.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 10:13AM

What???

Your cousins aside . . .


" . . . but then return, get their dental, doctor, lawyer, engineer, business degrees, obtain comfy jobs . . ."

Those are not easy degrees to get nor easy careers to maintain. Certainly not cushy if done right.

Now, G.A. is a cushy job. Sure, you have to mingle with the little people sometimes, even allow yourself to be adored at a Fireside, but if you want easy that's the way to go. And yes, the women behind the scenes with make you look good.

BUT. There is this idea that floats around our society that men all had wonderful fulfilling easy careers while women were stuck at home doing all the hard stressful work. The truth is most men had jobs they didn't like all that much but couldn't afford to change because they had to keep the money coming in. Often they had bosses that were very difficult and made the day miserable. Even the professionals you list often have very demanding difficult lives. Doctors face lawsuits over everything nowadays.

Sitcoms did us no good with this image of the man coming home from work, reading the paper, while the wife poured him a scotch and brought his slippers. This never happened to anybody I knew.


I don't know about your cousins, but in general, I am tired of generalities. People love to paint with a broad brush these days. Lumping millions of people of any race or creed into a couple of tired categories is not my cup of tea. The individual is an endangered species.

I know a lot of wonderful Mormon men. Perhaps more than the other kind like my brother.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 10:29AM

That would explain the passive aggression. Contention is of the devil, so giving up one's individual sovereignty for the sake of people pleasing can't be met with the anger response it deserves.

Mormons aren't lazy. Maybe intellectually lazy, but it's due to conditioning. They have all the answers so there is nothing to seek. Just follow the program and go through the motions.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 10:32AM

Yes.

You learn the rules of the game you are playing to play well, as Mormons do, or you don't play the game. True of things other than Mormon as well.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 10:45AM

Mediocrity is not exclusively Mormon. One can be a great Mormon. What if I were a great Mormon? I would be excommunicated. So there's that.

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Posted by: ciena ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 10:57AM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That would explain the passive aggression.
> Contention is of the devil, so giving up one's
> individual sovereignty for the sake of people
> pleasing can't be met with the anger response it
> deserves.
>
> Mormons aren't lazy. Maybe intellectually lazy,
> but it's due to conditioning. They have all the
> answers so there is nothing to seek. Just follow
> the program and go through the motions.

It seems to have some prevalence even in those still recovering, when the difficult (nearly impossible sometimes) journey involves reclaiming the muscle in a new spiritual quest.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 11:34AM

Not everyone is after a "new spiritual quest"--- which is a pretty nebulous term. Everyone has their own "correct" defintion.

Some are just after some good old fashioned pure facts to use as stepping stones, to build a foundation.

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Posted by: ciena ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 11:45AM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not everyone is after a "new spiritual quest"---
> which is a pretty nebulous term. Everyone has
> their own "correct" defintion.
>
> Some are just after some good old fashioned pure
> facts to use as stepping stones, to build a
> foundation.


Do the facts state one thing for sure? Where we lay down our very own spiritual quest is real.
But not you, you know already and the thinking has been done.

There is more to spirituality than the mite of Mormonism.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 12:01PM

Whoa. You really have an agenda and read things in that no one has said. Your assumptions of me could not be further off.

Your brand of spirituality is certainly no ideal of mine. You seem to think there is only one way to be. One goal. Hope for your sake I'm wrong.


Facts are facts. There is no statement. They are building blocks. They can be cherry picked to suit an agenda or they can be taken at face value understanding that they tell an important part of a story but are not the whole story. Like scientists know.

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Posted by: ciena ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 12:13PM

Not on a spiritual quest?

Not all knowing?

Somewhere conveniently in-between.

Not at all difficult to try and understand.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 02:10PM

ciena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do the facts state one thing for sure? Where we
> lay down our very own spiritual quest is real.
> But not you, you know already and the thinking has
> been done.

I don't think you've read much from D&D if you'd make a comment like this about him. He gives evidence in every post that he's a thinking person.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 02:46PM

There just has to be a difference between thinking and thinking that you're thinking...

What if the thoughts you thought you were thinking, weren't really thinking, but just thinking you were thinking?

What if thoughtfulness was just thinking you were thoughtful, when in fact you were just being thoughtless?

I am thinking that I might be gravely thoughtless when it comes to being a thinker.  What if I'm just a stinker?!

But at least I have an excuse...

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 04:27PM

You have given me the worst awakening of a long forgotten memory from decades ago when I couldn't remember if I had said something or only thought I said it. And it mattered. A lot. Would have been bad to repeat what I said and worse not to have said it at all. The consequences were huge. And I didn't know.

It all worked out but I nearly had to confess something I just couldn't that could have ruined everything.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 04:43PM

Excellent!  My work is done here...


But I still have a lot of Fun to commit.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: October 05, 2023 09:27AM


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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 04:21PM

>> Do the facts state one thing for sure? Where we lay down our very own spiritual quest is real.
But not you, you know already and the thinking has been done.

>>There is more to spirituality than the mite of Mormonism.

I would say that I was on a spiritual quest in my younger days. Over a period of many years, I became comfortable with not knowing for sure. That's where I'm at right now. I live my life, and I don't worry about it. I do have a few ideas about things, but I accept them as mere beliefs and ideas. I came to a space of complete self-acceptance when it comes to spirituality.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: October 05, 2023 09:39AM

Intellectual laziness is what I refer to here.

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Posted by: brian-the-christ ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 11:08AM

"Mormonism is a haven for mediocre, lazy men"

Maybe thinking of having to do forever home teaching forever in the CK FOREVER takes the fun out of energetically preparing for "eternal life."

It sucks the life out of "eternal happiness" attending soporific meetings and doing mostly pointless church duties.

Can one commit suicide in the hereafter? Forever sounds ominous and discouraging.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 01:38PM


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Posted by: brian-the-christ ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 11:00PM

:D Thanks, cl2!

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: November 08, 2023 07:58PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2023 08:00PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 09:53PM


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Posted by: briantchrist ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 11:03PM

Thanks, Beth! Nice to see you, too! :D

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 05, 2023 05:26AM

Welcome back, Brian! Long time no see.

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Posted by: briantchrist ( )
Date: October 16, 2023 01:18AM

Thanks, Summer! :)

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 12:11PM

The last ward I have attended in 2013 the bishop had a difficult time filling callings. Both men and women would decline callings. A bishop works full time is married with children and puts in many hours as a bishop. A friend of mine was Relief Society president in a small ward in Germany. She put in many hours visiting elderly Relief Society sisters. My husband was Scoutmaster and he was always gone. Between working full time getting his masters degree and being a Scoutmaster with one camp out per month I hardly saw him. I was at home with 3 small children. In my opinion the male hierarchy in the lds church is neither good for the man or the woman.

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 12:52PM

In the "outside" world people can choose to volunteer or not but inside the lds church are the church callings given by the bishop supposedly inspired by god. The janitors used to get paid to clean the ward building now it is a church calling "ward building coordinator" or something like this and he or she assign different people each week to clean the ward building. In my opinion the lds church should pay its members for their work be it the bishop, or the relief society president and who ever cleans the church building. Also why do missionaries need to pay $500 per month? Pay $500 per month to do free volunteer work! The missionaries are already giving their time and free labor. Pay tithing first even if that means that there is not enough money for groceries. Even if a man knew that he is gay he needs to get married to a woman in the temple so that he can get into the celestial kingdom. My niece has married a woman last year. My niece and her wife are very happy together. I am happy that they are not LDS. In my opinion Mormonism only works if the person fits into the perfect Mormon mold. If a woman can't get pregnant. If a man can't get a job. In Mormonism people should get married and multiply and replenish the earth. I was a stay at home mom but I missed working outside the home. I didn't fit the lds mold.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 03:12PM

Both of your posts are zingers in sizing up Mormonism.

Early 60's. Dad was the bishop for 11 years. We never saw him. Except we were building a new ward house when I was a young teen and I would see him there in passing as I had to work on it evenings and Saturdays. I had no real relationship with him. Worked hard much later in life to build one. Luckily he wanted to do the same.

My mom really wanted a career. But it just wasn't done. She finally went back to school to get a degree and that made her feel like more than a "help meet" or whatever they used to call it. She became Relief Society president after that.

The Mormon church sucks you dry and they don't care at all about he collateral damage. In fact the damage to your family caused by dedication to callings will be seen as YOUR FAULT. Calling themselves a family church is a cruel joke.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 12:13PM

Well many do want the jobs where they don't have to work on weekends or Sundays. They don't want to do manual work of any kind...... so I know what you are saying.

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 03:04PM


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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: October 04, 2023 03:11PM

Missions are mostly about Hype / hyping the gospel path, which 99% of us are familiar with.


Honesty sometimes gives a bit of pain, so they dilute its importance.

Forgiveness / Forgiving aren't defined well enough to have a practical impact - meaning - relevance, esp. if a TBM considers themselves 'on the path' otherwise.

Repentance in both the Bible & LDS scripture require a four-fold restitution of things wrongfully taken, so Ignore that also.


The key part of Christ-like living is Kindness which doesn't get much mention in Morland, it's taught as a sort of side-car.

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Posted by: ciena ( )
Date: October 05, 2023 07:26AM

Yes I did eventually give up the Mormon avoidance techniques learned so well.

Gave up the constant dual messages offered by the leadership too.

It seemed like it was always, "we're Mormon, no we're not", or again "we're a particular people, and then "we worship and adore Christ just like everyone else"
Maybe the best one, "no no no, not a bit of polygamy in the LDS CHURCH now" and yet to reach the Celestial Kingdom there is that second wifey thing in the clause. Meaning, don't worry much if first one dies!

Sick dudes, incredibly lazy and emotionally bankrupt, vacant vessels when you catch the light just right from the side rather than look straight on.

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Posted by: anonnonnon ( )
Date: October 16, 2023 07:25AM

Mediocre maybe, lazy, no. Mormonism certainly keeps you busy.

But if you're talking about intellectual laziness, that isn't an exclusively Mormon problem. Complicity and compliance has gotten us into the mess we're in right now. People don't think outside the box, and just do what they're told without question. They think in binary (us and them) terms about everything but can't see the bigger picture.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 16, 2023 10:43AM

anonnonnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mediocre maybe, lazy, no. Mormonism certainly
> keeps you busy.
>

Yep.

I observed many families fall apart as the demands of the church increased.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: October 17, 2023 11:29AM

Pardon? The Church is designed to give priority to high-achievers. This is not a bug but a feature.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: October 18, 2023 06:40AM

^^^THIS^^^

I’m not buying the premise (Mormonism is a haven for mediocre, lazy men) either. Stephen Covey was practically treated like a GA. Mormonism is a church of overachievers, and proud of it.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: October 24, 2023 12:01PM

In the LDS model the ideal man becomes a priesthood leader as a recognition of his high-achievement both in the Church and in a profession.

This must be a profession that provides handsomely for his family (more than "sufficient for their needs") so that his welfare does not depend on "work." Ideally, his income flows even when he isn't even present. (And this is important) he has enough authority at his business (that he owns) or employment (which if he does not own, he doesn't likely control their expectations of him) that he can disappear without much notice when the Church calls.

Unless a priesthood holder meets these high standards, a TBM wife may feel cheated in her "marital bargain." Her status is recognized as "Wife of Leader X." If her husband isn't striving to become Leader X, she may even complain that he is a "mediocre, lazy man."

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: October 24, 2023 12:26PM

And I will add an anecdote that illustrates these points.

When my youngest daughter was 16, one of her early dating relationships was with the son of a branch president in a nearby stake. The young man lived in another province because while our stake comprised 2 provinces and part of a US state, it did not include a third province.

This young man visits our home for a Sunday. Since he is 17, I ask what he plans to do with his future? Kid states that he wants to become a lawyer.

I wonder how Kid thinks he can be Matlock? I can not conceive of this timid Kid challenging a witness or making a persuasive appeal to a jury. In Canada the law profession splits between barristers who operate in courts and solicitors who handle legal documents. Perhaps he intends to become a solicitor?

Kid says his reason for wanting to become a lawyer is because he will have the income and the time for leadership in the Church. He knows how the Church operates.

Later that afternoon I have to return to the Church to complete some clerk reports. Kid admonishes me that I "shouldn't be doing that on Sunday when my family is at home." When can I get these reports done because I will be busy with other commitments throughout the week.

"My Dad never stays more than an hour after Church," kid says proudly. "He goes into the Church many evenings."

"What if the military needs him?" Kid's father is the commander of a military base.

"Dad orders other officers to handle it."

Your perspective on work/life balance changes when you can order people around to cover for you.

No, my daughter's budding romance with this kid never resulted in that ideal LDS marriage in the temple after his mission. First, their connection was limited to watching a lighthouse they could both see from their homes. But mostly, Kid determined that my daughter wasn't committed enough to the Church.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: October 24, 2023 12:30PM

Your daughter dodged a bullet.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: November 01, 2023 08:27AM

The Kid had no maturity whatsoever. He started crying (flow of tears and the whole bit) because I was stuffing the turkey "wrong." "You've ruined it! (Sob.)"

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 01, 2023 10:12AM

Idleswell. Your story is a good illustration of just how messed up the Mormon policy of unpaid clergy filling "callings from God" really is.

My dad was bishop for 11 years of my youth and I never saw him. Did a lot of damage to our relationship and took decades to repair--if that's the right word. This kid has his head somewhere dark if he thinks you just get "the little people from the village" to do your work for you and that is the way life should work. Some serious arrogance there.

I hope that kid gets his "come to Jesus" moment at some point. His dad sounds like my brother.

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Posted by: Indeed ( )
Date: November 07, 2023 10:59PM

High achievers from within their circle. BYU style high-achievers. That is, generally mediocre; belonging to a subculture that is not competitive at more global levels. Mormons are liars. They are taught to lie in testimony meetings saying things that do not believe. Odd stuff like "This church is the true church of Jesus Christ". Those members about in US intelligence circles because they are good at disguising, lying, appearances, etc. All is appearance. Nice basketball fields in churches around the world; conveniently located facing the main door. Never in the back. They attract members. They are masters of disguise.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: October 17, 2023 04:41PM


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Posted by: unconventionalideas ( )
Date: November 02, 2023 12:24AM

Mediocre and lazy in the sense that they live essentially pre-programmed lives. There’s no there there. Orginality? What’s that?

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Posted by: Dimensions ( )
Date: November 07, 2023 10:50PM

The Mormon doctrine implicitly pre-programs members. People of all ages have a particular role. Your life is not private. Members are controlled with sham dictates such as laws of wisdown, chastity, etc. The goal is to make members feel bad so it becomes a hook for controlling them. For the church, members are pre-programmed and a mass. All that count are number of members and money investments. Yeah, you could have a great profession, but your life is hollow and that void is filled in with the hopes of the next life. The Mormon church has an subculture, sort of a parochial society. It is a Corporation that institutionalizes people. You will eventually feel guilty because others depend on you and you feel the pressure.

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