On my mission I was always in possession of my passport. I've read that mission presidents now take possession of passports from missionaries serving outside the US. Is this true? If so, it smacks of enslavement!! Isn't it illegal to take someone's passport away from them?

Yes, and yes.

At least that was my experience abroad a couple of decades ago.

So when LDS, Inc. conducts temple recommend interviews they leave out the part "Are you honest in all your dealings" when they interview mission presidents? Or has all that changed too?

Jeepers I've been out of the cult a long time!

There were a few lies.

The first was that they were legally required to keep our passports. The real purpose was to make it impossible for people to go home on their own. If the mission leadership could get someone in the mission home for a few days "while the details were being worked out," they could usually persuade the wayward missionary to stay.

Another was the MP's warning that we must not travel in members' vehicles because we were not insured against accidents. It turns out that too was a lie. The insurance went with the vehicle and its driver and passengers were covered. But of course cars are places where people can park and engage in prohibited forms of personal enjoyment. And we can't have that, can we.

So yes, all sorts of lies justified by the proposition that the church knows better than the missionaries.

If anyone takes them to court over this stuff I wonder if "Lying for the Lord" gets them out of trouble.

I don't know if they could be punished in the US since the "safekeeping" of the passports took place abroad.

wouldn't a rep from that country's U.S.consulate take some action if it was reported to them? If I were doing missionary work for any religion in another country I'd go home before turning my passport over to someone else. I kind of wonder if missionaries have a problem with passports getting stolen or lost abroad and it causes inconvenience at the mission home? But that is still a poor reason to take someone's passport. My companion had her passport stolen and it took a lot for her to get a new one.

I would never surrender my passport. I would have had a short mission.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> I don't know if they could be punished in the US
> since the "safekeeping" of the passports took
> place abroad.


Passports are US Gov property, not the holder's property. And only the government and the holder are allowed to hold/withhold a passport. That applies to spouses, parents (though that's probably a technicality under a certain age), universities, volunteer groups, employers and mission presidents. And anyone else who may try to hold on to someone's passport.

If a missionary were to go to a US consulate or embassy and report that their passport was being held by the mission president, the mish president/mission/church could technically be charged with illegal seizure of government property. The fine is hefty. The mish pres could feign ignorance and say that they were safeguarding it since missionaries are always on the go and frequently in dangerous areas or non-secure residences. I guess it would depend on whether the missionary asked for it and wasn't furnished with it upon demand.

The crime doesn't even have to be abroad. If a spouse or someone insists on holding someone's passport, even if it's just at home in the US, it's still a crime. Only a US official can seize a passport.

In either instance, unless the person is a repeat offender, they'd probably just get a warning and a demand to return the passport.

Yes, all of that is my understanding. I also cannot imagine, however, how any of us indoctrinated and unseasoned young could would ever have considered challenging the church on that point.

It's also difficult to spontaneously refuse something when you have no preparation or awareness that it will happen.

Anyone who talks to pre-missionaries or are in a place to advise missionaries, make sure they make clear copies of all the (non blank) pages in their passport, and keep these copies in locations away from the passport. Register with the US embassy/consulate on the first day there (i they have to make it sound like they're actually "visiting" an old relative it would work easier) register at the consulate/embassy, give the all the details of where you'll be and when, and update when you transfer if that makes a difference. When you register, they'll have everything they need to get you a new passport ASAP.

The final bit of advice I'd impart: save for emergencies or needing to go home by spending the 2 years before your mish buying $50 gift cards. They don't expire, and if you use afterpay, that's just 12.50 every 2 weeks for two months,Stock up on airline gcs, general booking/rental/car company gcs, gcs for uber or whatever exists in the area you'll be going to. If you do it right and all goes wrong on the mission you won't have to ask the church or your fam for a cent and you can cash in your GCs (stored in an app) to spend a week or two at an all inclusive till you decide to go home.If I loved the mission, everything went great, I'd have a kickass vacation when I got home, or, since I'd be marrying in 3 months, the ability to have a cool honeymoon (they even have cruise gift cards on afterpay)

I forget the source, but I recently read what were purported to be the minutes of a few church leadership meetings during BY's reign.

The subject of the meetings was about bribing U.S. national leaders...  Names of those who would receive bribes, and the amounts of the bribes, were all read into the records.



I've mentioned this before:  Mexico had (has?) a strict rule that 'tourists' cannot stay in the country for more than six months.  A couple of years prior to my arrival, missionaries were still exiting the country (by train) every six months, crossing into the US, and then turning right around and getting a new six-month visa.

But then it changed, and the missionaries got new visas without having to leave the country...  The law didn't change.

Upon arrival, we all turned in our passports and our original visas; we got a photocopy of the visa.  Then, six months later, we got a photocopy of the new six-month visa.

Undoubtedly, this bypassing of government regulation was based on the church finally finding someone to bribe.

Ah, yes. Money talks. That's probably what happened to those gold plates. The angel took them to grease a few palms.

All passports were kept in the mission office in my mission. I never questioned it, being the good little sheep I was!

On my mission (Thailand 1976-78), passports were always in the mission office, except when we had to take trips outside the country. In our case, they actually had valid reasons for doing it. Thailand would only issue us tourist visas. Those visas were good for 30 days, and could only be extended twice (the first extension was 30 days, the second was 15 days). If we didn’t do some tricks, every missionary would have to leave the country every 75 days. One member of the office staff had a full time job of trying to keep us in the country as long as possible. I’m certain that many unethical (possibly illegal?) things were done. One day I was chatting with the missionary in charge of visas, and he told me he could fake my signature. Without even looking at my passport, he was able to do a reasonably good copy of my signature. Obviously, he had signed countless forms for all of the missionaries.

One guy came up with an idea that worked well, but could only be done once. It was legal, though I suppose the ethics could be debated. He had us all apply for permanent residency status. He knew that all of our applications would be rejected (because we explicitly stated in the application that we only intended to stay for two years), but the red tape involved with the rejection would take months-during which we could stay in the country without having to apply for extensions.

I personally only had to leave the country four times to extend my visa. It was always a disruption, but also a nice break from missionary work. Plus, it gave me a chance to see Malaysia.

Served stateside but the MP held passports for foreign missionaries serving in my Texas mission. One reward for serving areas adjacent to the US-Mexico border was the opportunity to spend 3 hours in a Mexican border town on your last P-day.

A few stipulations:

You had to be serving near a border area (missionaries serving in San Antonio or along the gulf coast Corpus Christi were out of luck).

You had to have a member from your assigned ward who was willing to drive you over in their personal vehicle- NO mission vehicles permitted to cross the Rio Grande.

You needed permission in writing to make the request, about 3 weeks before your last P-day. It actually was a form with member's name, make of car, phone number. Yes, the member would receive a phone call from the MP to pass a worthiness interview.

Elders had to go in pairs with a single man. Sisters had to go in pairs with a husband-wife couple. They were not trusted to be alone without a worthy priesthood holder.

If you were on the MP's shit-list, you didn't go. If you couldn't find a member, you weren't granted permission to go. If you had already been to Mexico, you weren't supposed to go again***more on that in a bit. If you were a native Mexican, you didn't go either.

This wonderful sister from Bermuda applied to go to Mexico with her companion and another husband-wife couple. She obviously forgot about her passport being held by the MP and he did as well. She was detained at US Customs upon her return crossing into the US. Her companion was loyal and was also voluntarily "detained". The companion made the call to the MP. He had to drive the following day to spring her loose with her papers. There was a 2 month moratorium of no border trips into Mexico, then the trips resumed.

I went 3 times because I was assigned to "trunky" missionaries who were getting ready to complete their 2 year missions (I sent my first 5 companions home). By the time I was getting ready to go home, the mission office informed me not to bother because I had gone to Mexico more than any other missionary.

A senior missionary couple found out that I had been denied to visit Mexico. They thought it was unfair and offered to take me and my companion to lunch. What they didn't tell us (though they confirmed that we had valid ID's) is that we were going to Mexico for lunch.

In my limited experience, they will return the passports to the consulate on request.

We didn't need a passport for Canada, just a work visa. They remained in our posession. For some reason, the expiration dates varied, with some lasting the full two years, and some expiring sooner. Those who had visas that expired early were supposed to get them renewed. Most didn't bother, and remained in country illegally.

Belgium 1981-1983 ----18 months at the time :)

Our mission covered Belgium, France, and Luxembourg, and our visas were stamped in our passports, so there was no way the MP was gonna keep our passports

Elder Wowbagger

In Germany, our residency permits were stamped on our passports. They couldn‘t take them away from us for that reason.

unconventionalideas Wrote:
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> In Germany, our residency permits were stamped on
> our passports. They couldn‘t take them away
> from us for that reason.

I think that applies in many places. You will find many of them have compulsory ID cards, and you can be pulled over by the police and ID'd ar any point. No ID and it's straight to prison in some places.

Of course, in the USA and other places, IDs are already there by stealth. Driver's licenses, student cards and the like. You're asked for them all the time even to start a bank account.

Uh yes, you need ID to open a bank account. It would be pretty damn stupid not to require proof of identity now wouldn't it. Sometimes you have to let a little common sense seep in to the rhetoric.

Sometimes you are so very gullible, Susan. First they make you use credit cards, then they insist you have a student ID to get into the school library, and suddenly you realize you've been injected with a Bill Gates microchip.

You and anybody need to woke up and smell the roses. You've fallen for creeping Marxism (Frankfurt School) and Native American intersectionality and I'm appalled.

I like my chip. Being magnetic is quite handy. Plus, if I tip my head juuuust right this plays https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3EMjrjIqk And the complete Evita soundtrack.

My 5G reception improves with every covid booster I get.

:)

The Bill Gates microchips now come in suppository form.

I think the U.S. post office is requiring IDs for change-of-address requests now, which also makes sense.

Susan I/S Wrote:
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> Uh yes, you need ID to open a bank account. It
> would be pretty damn stupid not to require proof
> of identity now wouldn't it. Sometimes you have
> to let a little common sense seep in to the
> rhetoric.

Many countries require you to carry at ID at ALL times, including the likes of France and Germany. For missionaries that would include a passport. The police there can haul you in just for having no ID.

The USA pretends you don't have to have photo ID but also makes it increasingly difficult for most people to survive without a bank account so for many intents and purposes you need one... the difference is that you don't need one to walk down the street like most of continental Europe. <<Vive la France!>>

I wouldn't worry about it too much though, it's not like banks are already discriminating against people for holding another opinion or anything. To keep you safe.

So what? If it is the law to have your ID, put it in your purse. Simple. Easy. No brainer. You need it to drive a car too. If you are not a French citizen you also have to prove you have the right to be there. Big shocker, you have to have the correct paperwork and ID to get into France and the entire Schengen area (the largest free travel area in the world). If you don't like the law, attempt to change it through legal means.

And frankly, if you can't even pick a name and stick with it on an anon BB your opinion doesn't hold any weight.

At least he's not haranguing us about the War on Cash anymore.

Small mercies from small men.

Ah the cash thing. I subscribe to a few "conservative" newsletters/sites and the cash thing is hysterical. All this apocalyptic language. Kind of like all the hoopla around 2K. Turns out they were on about this FedNow service. Nothingburger. Now since that was a bust they are moving on to appliances. I am really confused. So, it's found that something is not as safe as we always thought. I appreciate being told! I will stick with my electric stove. When I sell this house, it is plumbed for gas and the next people can make their own decision. But I am glad to know about the problem lol. When did ignorance become bliss?

“When did ignorance become bliss?”

It seems that among some people, ignorance is not only not a reason for shame, it’s a source of pride. I’ve heard people practically brag about never reading books. I assume that some of this comes from lack of trust for authority, but unfortunately, ignoring credible, verifiable evidence, and cherry picking “information” from dubious sources seems to be seen as a virtue for too many people.

I have always thought that knowledge enables you to have the tools to make the best/better choices. When I was little and able to roam the library by myself I was awed by what you could learn there. Now that we have the internet and access to direct sources - fast and easy - I don't understand the pride of being ignorant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2023 03:58AM by Susan I/S.

CrispingPin Wrote:
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> “When did ignorance become bliss?”
>
> It seems that among some people, ignorance is not
> only not a reason for shame, it’s a source of
> pride. I’ve heard people practically brag about
> never reading books. I assume that some of this
> comes from lack of trust for authority, but
> unfortunately, ignoring credible, verifiable
> evidence, and cherry picking “information”
> from dubious sources seems to be seen as a virtue
> for too many people.

Just because someone is in power or a position of influence doesn't make them a credible source, it just means that they were good at getting there in the first place. Of course there is a "lack of trust for authority", because it is frequently shown to be shambolic, corrupt and lining its own pockets. That isn't just from "dubious sources" but also the mainstream media. (Although most of it is underreported.)

I wish people would get away from this worship of power, because it is the exact same thing which keeps the Mormon church going.

Of course the worship of power is bad, and skepticism often leads to truth (that’s how many of us got away from mormonism). I’m talking about people who:

Assume something must be false because it makes them uncomfortable, and refuse to look into the evidence (that’s a truly Mormon trait).

Put YouTube videos and social media posts on the same level as peer reviewed, double blind studies. As it is often said “everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.”

See ignorance as a virtue. As I said in my previous post, some people are are seemingly proud of the fact that they don’t read books. People like this respond with a yawn or a shrug if you mention some new discovery (for example: new observations from the Webb Telescope). Maybe astrophysics doesn’t interest you, but if you have no curiosity about the world, or no interest in learning, that’s nothing to be proud of.

  

When I was in Brazil in the late 1960s, we got a Brazilian visa that had our photo attached. We kept that as ID, and the mission office kept our passport. The visas were good for two years, so Brazil did not foot-drag on allowing missionaries in, at least when I was there, and I was there during a military dictatorship.

There had been one exception. The policy prior to 1968 or so was to send missionaries to northern Brazil for the last stop on their mission. The reason was that it was fifteen hundred miles more or less from the mission home in São Paulo to northeast Brazil, and making the missionary fly back south 1500 miles and then eventually fly north again to return home (usually the US) was expensive.

The downside was that all the missionaries in the north were in their final posting, were not going to ever see the mission home again, and had their passports. I don’t recall if they had their return ticket, with a long layover in whatever northern state they were in. I don’t think they had the ticket. In any case, almost all the missionaries were “trunky”.

When I was in that mission, the policy changed, and missionaries were sent up north at any point in their mission, and typically returned to the south before the end of their mission. The church obviously decided that they were better off spending the extra money to avoid having an entire section of the mission consist of nothing but short-timers.

So I had two 1500 mile transfers, and two 800 mile transfers. I think 93% of the land area of Brazil was a single mission when I arrived. Now of course there are dozens of missions in Brazil. The 1978 priesthood revelation led to dramatic church growth in Brazil, a heavily mixed-race country.

PS - I still have the visa. I look like a child. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2023 01:41PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Ah yes. But a very good looking child, I'm sure!

... A tall child ...

the Context is treating missionaries (perhaps except for MH staff) as children; church leaders somehow seem to 'think' / believe that their micro-management of others including missionaries is 'for their own good'. That's Crap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2023 02:22PM by GNPE.