This may, or may not, become a small series for me, but I was taken by both the stupidity and arrogance of pastor Greg Locke in the article linked to below.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/10/17/2200004/-MAGA-pastor-whines-about-accessible-parking-at-church-says-the-wheelchair-bound-should-just-walk?detail=emaildkre&pm_source=DKRE&pm_medium=email

Before I get into what the good(?) pastor said, I was *very* impressed by the intelligence of the first paragraph by the writer of this piece; to wit:

"Many American atheists are ex-Christians. They moved on from belief and religion because they found no evidence for God’s existence — and being told to
have faith without proof was unsatisfactory. In some cases, the embrace of reason resulted from the sadism of the pastor. They found it hard to square
Jesus’ fundamental message of compassion for all, with the flint-hearted dismissal of LGBTQ, foreigners, other religions, women with careers, and Democrats."

The first sentence of the above paragraph is an absolutely logical reason to have become an atheist, but many of the religious either completely miss the point or ignore it altogether. Anyway, here is pastor Locke's latest buffoonery, courtesy of yesterday's sermon:

block quote
"Churches in the American culture — you know one of the largest expenses we have in buildings? The amount of handicap parking and handicap accessibility
that we have in our churches. Now I'm gonna make you mad for a minute and I don't really care. Why is it you pull up to a church that says they operate
in faith, and you have fifty handicapped parking spots?"
block quote end

And there's more.

block quote
“Anybody lay hands on them handicapped folks yet? I don't care what Twitter says. You can get mad all you want to. Fold your arms. Stick your lips out.
Poot [sic] your mouth. I don't care. I’m so unafraid of what anybody in this tent thinks about me, right now in my life, I could care less.*
block quote end

Would an intelligent disabled Christian wish to hear anymore? But Mr. Locke goes on:

block quote
“We just expect that people are going to leave church the same way they came to church. We ought to have some signs out there, that don't have like handicap
accessibility …  people in a wheelchair. We want to have signs of a wheelchair laying down and someone just walking up.” [The audience cheers].

[Locke then pretends to be a heckler] “Well pastor, you are just being insensitive.”

[Locke then replies to the imaginary heckler] “I think you just don't have any faith is what I think!"
block quote end

I very much agree with the writer's comments below pastor Locke's remarks--having faith does not cure permanent physical disabilities. Need proof? Just ask wheelchair-bound (and very fundamentalist Christian) Joni Earickson Tada.

The writer goes on to list some of the other moronic stuff this pastor has done (I won't list it here) and it is all certainly cringeworthy.

If a religion claims it has the power to heal people of physical conditions, and there are disabled people in it, that's always been a red flag for me. Clearly, their claimed magic powers aren't working. I put that on my shelf with the Mormon church for years, but it was always a sticking point. After trying to heal my wife (unsuccessfully) with my magic priesthood powers, I truly knew it was a lie. Hopefully, this whack-job pastor will open some eyes of his followers.

Funny how "God heals" the people with no faith as sporadically as He does the faithful.

God always gets the credit and never the blame.

People like Locke are doing huge damage to the reputation of Christians. He probably has no clue why.

And specifically for the Mormon version of god:

If sick or injured people are anointed with holy oil and blessed by people holding the holy priesthood:
Some will do better than medical expectations.
Some will do worse.
Most will fall within the expected range of outcomes.

For those who don’t receive a priesthood blessing:
Some will do better than expected.
Some will do worse.
Most will do as expected.

dagny Wrote:
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> People like Locke are doing huge damage to the
> reputation of Christians. He probably has no clue
> why.

Yes.

I agree with blindguy's assessment too: cringeworthy.

Nobody I ever knew or heard preach gave any guarantees about healing. (I guess I wasn't in the right place/s!) The point is you can ask but don't always get. The emphasis from preachers I'm accustomed to is that sure, we're counselled to ask, but don't freak if you don't get the result you desire because "the Lord's ways are not our ways". I always translated that to mean that I won't get what I ask for (especially miracles) but it's good to "show faith" by at least asking. You can't expect to always (or ever?) get the outcome you're praying for though.

Because it just doesn't work that way. :)

I would take great pleasure in walking out on that creepy pastor's offensive diatribes, err... I mean sermons. He seems to be the type that blames people for their own struggles even when they concern issues beyond an individual's control.

blindguy: Is he making you want to attend his church with that attitude of his?

I won't be surprised when you say no!

Complete ignorance. He sounds like somebody who has it soft and thinks that's because of his own effort and worth. No, it's more like the luck of the draw - who your family members are, what circumstances you're born into, your biology, upbringing and resources, to name a few factors that influence one's life apart from one's own efforts.

Preachers like him turn me right off church. And I'm a Christian. So how uncomfortable is that.

blindguy Wrote:
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> n/t

Quelle surprise! (as my friends in Quebec would say).

In English it's meant to be quite sarcastic. Sometimes it's the perfect phrase to express my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2023 03:48PM by Nightingale.

If only some enterprising journalist could ask Greg Abbott and Madison Cawthorn for a response to Pastor Locke's message…

How many paraplegics has Locke healed? One would expect to see lines out the door, every week, for his miraculous healings. Make him put up or shut up.

Pastor Locke is only one accident away from riding in a wheelchair or on a scooter, or using crutches. I wonder what excuse he will use then?

I've always found it strange that theists consider themselves qualified to define atheism. Do atheists get to qualify what is exactly a theist, then?

OK then, here goes: I don't believe that theists even exist. If they did, they would be able to e.g.. move mountains with faith just as Jesus said they could. I think theism is merely cognitive dissonance so removed from consciousness that you'll likely never be able to get a theist to admit their true lack of belief. This could be for a number of reasons such as:
1. Having to admit to themselves that they spent so much time and so many resources into a cause that they eventually see as one big mistake.
2. Comfort in the delusion that a god will save one from the (perceived) ugly idea of eternal death.
3. Arrogance in wanting more life to live than nature provided. We all get a turn, but living forever would overwhelm the planet—even so some people feel they ought to be the special exceptions.
4. Dealing with grief and hopelessness.
5. Complying with peers and families and their demands by remaining as cognitively dissonant as is possible.

Now in the past, I've been told that I have a religion: a belief that there is no god. Actually, no. I'm pretty sure most atheists are actually apatheists. I have no beliefs at all. In fact, the typical cynical Christian hates apathests more than even disbelievers, since the apathests ruins their ability to cause religious fights. How do you fight a belief that doesn't even exist? So there you have it: we've gone full circle in that the theist tells me what I believe in order to create a straw man to criticize and fight.

"A" in Greek and Latin simply means "without". It makes no pretensions as to whether being without means against, or simply an absence for no reason at all. I choose to remain without a reason to believe in a god, even as much as an infant that hasn't even been taught about the concept of a god yet does. I don't have to make an opinion, and I won't.

I find it ironic that the Christian leaders lead such garbage.

They call themselves Christians. Named after Jesus Christ. The way I understand it, God sent Jesus down to give hope and support to so many who were society’s lower class. JS stood up to the rich and powerful and ended up getting murdered because of it.

Now in 2023 the Christian leaders amass money, hang and support the the rich and powerful. The very group of people JS fought against. They ignore the weak, sick, lower class and society members isolated that JS helped. But they label themselves like JS. JS must cry every day in heaven. Just saying.

But in reality I believe it is a story with some parts of reality. The point I am making the whole movement is hypocritical run by master hypocrites.

"This may, or may not, become a small series for me, but I was taken by both the stupidity and arrogance of pastor Greg Locke in the article linked to below."

COMMENT: Let's concede the fact that pastor Locke is "stupid" and "arrogant," as you say (to put it kindlier than he deserves). Let's just concede that he is an A-hole on a number of levels. Okay, now what follows from that concession about the merits of atheism or the lack of merit of Christianity? Anything?
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"Before I get into what the good(?) pastor said, I was *very* impressed by the intelligence of the first paragraph by the writer of this piece; to wit:

'Many American atheists are ex-Christians. They moved on from belief and religion because they found no evidence for God’s existence — and being told to have faith without proof was unsatisfactory.'

COMMENT: Okay, so "many" atheists are ex-Christians because they found "no evidence" for God, and they found "faith without proof" to be "unsatisfactory." This is an entirely trivial comment about "many" atheists that even if true has nothing whatever to with the history and motivations of atheists generally, the merit or lack of merit of Christian faith generally, or Pastor Locke's stupidity in particular. WE CAN SEE FROM THE GETGO OF THIS ESSAY (AND BY ADOPTION THIS THREAD) IS ABOUT STEER AWAY FROM LOGIC AND REASON, WHILE EMBRACING SEVERAL LOGICAL FALLACIES!
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"In some cases, the embrace of reason resulted from the sadism of the pastor. They found it hard to square Jesus’ fundamental message of compassion for all, with the flint-hearted dismissal of LGBTQ, foreigners, other religions, women with careers, and Democrats."

COMMENT: Okay, now we have the generality of "some" cases. "Some" means at least one, so again we can concede that "some" atheists probably turned from Christianity to atheism because of bigots like Locke. Once again, an entirely trivial assumption. So what? Again, this tells us nothing about the motivations of atheists in general, or the logic of Christianity in general.
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"The first sentence of the above paragraph is an absolutely logical reason to have become an atheist, but many of the religious either completely miss the point or ignore it altogether."

COMMENT: Okay, let's concede again (reluctantly this time) the fact that "some" Christian oriented bigotry represents a "logical reason" to become an atheist. It surely does not follow that atheism is a necessary logical conclusion for *anyone* who notices an example of such bigotry. Nor does it follow that Christians who maintain their faith despite such instances of Christian bigotry "completely miss the point." Obviously, a Christian can fully understand the bigotry, stupidity, and ignorance of people like Locke, without being logically required to abandon their own brand of Christian faith.
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"I very much agree with the writer's comments below pastor Locke's remarks--having faith does not cure permanent physical disabilities. Need proof? Just ask wheelchair-bound (and very fundamentalist Christian) Joni Earickson Tada.

COMMENT: Again, bad logic. It is indeed an obvious fact that the vast majority of disabled people who have sought and participated in religious oriented, divine interventions, be it prayer or administrations of some sort, have not been cured. However, it simply does not follow that because most have demonstrably not been cured, that *none* have been cured. That is a different empirical claim. Although we may rightfully proclaim our doubts, the claims of religious cures continue. And the validity of these claims do NOT rest on any further claim that such cures are either necessary in all cases or commonplace.
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"The writer goes on to list some of the other moronic stuff this pastor has done (I won't list it here) and it is all certainly cringeworthy."

COMMENT: So, again, WHAT IS YOUR POINT BEYOND THE CLAIM THAT THERE EXISTS AT LEAST ONE "CRINGEWORTHY" PASTOR? How does that in any way support atheism, or undermine Christian faith? I can point to a number of atheist A-holes, who are stupid and ignorant (and extreme) in their views. (Many have written popular books!) Yet, that has not led me to abandon atheism.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The primary subject of the story was the cringeworthy behavior of pastor Locke and not whether it led more Christians to leave the fold. I'm sorry if I presented that narrative as the more important one, for it is not.

That said, I'm quite sure that the words and behaviors of pastors like Mr. Locke have forced many Christians to reconsider their stands in the faith, just as I'm sure that the speeches and behaviors of both general authorities and the prophet and his apostles have led many to question their involvement in Mormonism. (You can read the short topics and the stories of leaving Mormonism on this Board and the stories in the black sheep roster at the Salamander Society website to show that quite a few mormons have left their religion because of the hypocrasy of their prophets, general authorities, and bishops). While I haven't seen any polls on why people leave religions, I would be surprised if known hypocracies from church leadership didn't play a large part of such people leaving and then becoming atheists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2023 02:04AM by blindguy.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

COMMENT: Well, yes, that is what I do. :) But, in most cases the mountain I make represents at least a worthy plateau!
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"The primary subject of the story was the cringeworthy behavior of pastor Locke and not whether it led more Christians to leave the fold. I'm sorry if I presented that narrative as the more important one, for it is not."

COMMENT: Well, I beg to differ, not with your representation of the story, but with your assessment of the story itself. In the story the cringeworthy behavior of Locke is expressly tied to Christianity and atheism. So, am I to be faulted for assuming the author sought to make this connection that is at least implied, if not explicit? And am I at fault for pointing out the logical deficiencies in such connection? If I indeed built a mountain, I did not create the mole hill, or the moles that inhabit it!
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"That said, I'm quite sure that the words and behaviors of pastors like Mr. Locke have forced many Christians to reconsider their stands in the faith . . .

COMMENT: I am not sure that is true. Moreover, who are "Pastors like Mr. Locke," who is obviously on the extreme fringe of evangelism? Moreover, what are we to make of the vague suggestion that "many" Christians are influenced in their faith by people like Locke? Is there any meat on these bones?
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. . , just as I'm sure that the speeches and behaviors of both general authorities and the prophet and his apostles have led many to question their involvement in Mormonism.

COMMENT: I agree with that. But "many" again does not represent a significant number, and the reality is that so far, it does not appear that such behavior of the higher-ups has produced a significant backlash of apostacy. These people are generally only expressing traditional Mormonism, and are not moving the needle toward the more extreme (like Locke). If some Mormons are offended it is because of the current liberal social climate outside of Mormonism, not because Mormon leaders have become extreme.
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(You can read the short topics and the stories of leaving Mormonism on this Board and the stories in the black sheep roster at the Salamander Society website to show that quite a few mormons have left their religion because of the hypocrasy of their prophets, general authorities, and bishops). While I haven't seen any polls on why people leave religions, I would be surprised if known hypocracies from church leadership didn't play a large part of such people leaving and then becoming atheists.

COMMENT: But are these numbers significant? "Quite a few" is still a drop in the bucket (unfortunately). And it is of even less significance in the Locke context, since he does not speak for Christianity, as the Mormon prophet speaks for Mormonism. I seriously doubt that ANY Christian would be compelled to abandon their faith simply because of Locke's outrageous extremism. The reaction we have seen so far is Christian denouncement.

"I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

COMMENT: Well, yes, that is what I do. :)"

I'm with blindguy on this one, Henry, but you really made me laugh, so thank you :-D

You make some interesting points. However, instead of directly (or attempting) to answer these points, I'm going to share a little bit of autobiography which I think I've shared with the Board a long time ago in a thread now lost to history.

In the late spring/early summer of 1972, my mother, at the urging of one of her friends, took me and my younger brother (who is also totally blind) to see the late healer, Kathryn Cullman (hopefully I'm spelling her name correctly). The hope that my mom's friend installed was that Ms. Cullman would perform some sort of miracle that would allow both my brother and I to have full sight.

The performance was given at a large auditorium-like structure in, if memory serves, Burbank, California. The entire place appeared to be filled to capacity with a lot of people being bussed in. (We came in two cars.)

My mom's friend went to see if Ms. Cullman would visit with my brother and myself but returned with a negative. Ms. Cullman would be seeing people from the west side of the San Fernando Valley (Newhall, Thousand Oaks, and surrounding areas) and not people from the east side of the valley (such as Tujunga where we were living at the time.) We stayed anyway. (My mom's friend was a born-again Christian, and my mom, who was Roman Catholic, really wanted to believe we could be cured through this woman's powers with God.)

We never did see or meet with Ms. Cullman, but the height of the program came very late in the show. It turned out that country singer Freddie Hart had a home in Newhall. He also had a deaf son who he brought with him to see if Ms. Cullman could cure the deafness. There was a lot of loud organ music and when it was over, Ms. Cullman announced that a miracle had occurred: Freddie Hart's son could read lips. There wasn't a lot of clapping (it wasn't allowed) but there was a lot of talk after the show about how great the performance was.

It wasn't until much later that I learned that Freddie Hart's son had been taught by people at the local day school for the deaf how to read lips long before Ms. Cullman ever came to town. That piece of knowledge assisted me in understanding that Ms. Cullman, much like the pastor being discussed in this thread, was nothing more than a charlatan who was using her tomfoolery to get others to donate money to her.

For those unfamiliar with SFV geography, the Valley's west side (Calabasas, Woodland Hills, Canoga Park, etc.) is seen as wealthier than the east side (Sylmar, San Fernando, Pacoima, etc.). Obviously, there are wealthier pockets in the east side and vice versa, but that's the general perception. That she would only be meeting with the richer half is telling.

Why fleece poor people when you can fleece rich people?

I love the way this article implies that American Christians are never Democrats or vice versa. Some people will believe it.

Many atheists aren't ex-Christians anymore, but people who never grew up with religion in the first place. Times change.

EVERY American worships a $anta Claus of one $hape or another!

Many U.S.A. Christians apparently find the teachings of Jesus to be too weak. Their Christianity is mostly about learning who it is OK to look down on or hate.