This presents a interesting questions:

If you were raised as a Native, are you Native?

Does the tribe get to say who their members are, or does the government decide?


Why is the hypodescent rule applied only to Black and Native people?

Some tribes are multi-ethnic with people of many different backgrounds and mixed ancestry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramapough_Mountain_Indians


#######################

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/buffy-sainte-marie

From the early days of her career, Sainte-Marie has claimed to be a Cree woman, born in Canada. She has also allowed herself to be celebrated as an Indigenous icon and success story.

In 2022, CBC broadcast a concert that was held in her honour at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa, where Anishinabe musician ShoShona Kish told the audience: “Buffy Sainte-Marie has led the way for Indigenous music on this beautiful land since her first album.”

However, almost 50 years after stepping onto Sesame Street, the iconic singer-songwriter’s claims to Indigenous ancestry are being contradicted by members of her own family and an extensive CBC investigation.

Late last year, CBC received a tip that Sainte-Marie is not of Cree ancestry but, in fact, has European roots. She is the latest high-profile public figure whose ancestry story has been contradicted by genealogical documentation, including her own birth certificate, historical research and personal accounts — the latest chapter in the complex and growing debate around Indigenous identity in Canada.

Watch the full documentary, “Making an Icon,” from The Fifth Estate on YouTube or CBC-TV at 9 p.m. ET. It will also stream on CBC Gem.

Indigenous scholars like Kim TallBear, a professor of Native studies at the University of Alberta in Edmonton and a member of Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate, say it’s unacceptable for non-Indigenous people to speak for Indigenous people and take honours set aside for them.


##########################


Buffy's Response:


##########################

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/buffy-sainte-marie-indigenous-ancestry-canada-documentary

https://twitter.com/BuffySteMarie/status/1717609253199127019/

Ahead of the report, Sainte-Marie released a statement on Thursday, calling the allegations “deeply hurtful”.

“I have always struggled to answer questions about who I am,” she said. “Through that research what became clear, and what I’ve always been honest about, is that I don’t know where I’m from or who my birth parents were, and I will never know.”

In a recent interview with the Guardian, Sainte-Marie, 82, acknowledged the difficulty in knowing her past.

“As adopted children, we don’t even know when our birthday is,” she said “You spend your entire life asking questions you can’t answer.”

Sainte-Marie has told media outlets she was eventually reunited with her relatives at the Piapot First Nation and adopted by the Piapot family. “My Cree name is Piyasees Kanikamut, which means ‘Singing Bird’. I’m a recognized member of the reservation now,” she told Boston Herald.

Members of the Piapot family said Thursday that questions over Sainte-Marie’s ancestry were “hurtful, ignorant, colonial – and racist”.

##########################



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2023 04:02PM by anybody.

I just hope that "They" don't try to refute the fact that the North American Plains Indians invented the horse...

  
  

In my youth, my face was marked by Laurels touching me with a ten-foot pole.

LOL. You must have been cute. If you weren't, they wouldn't have touched you with a ten foot pole.

I kept my ten foot pole in my room by my broom.

My broom is in the garage. It's far too powerful to keep in the house.

Here is another article with a few different details:

https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/celebrity/i-know-who-i-am-buffy-sainte-marie-calls-indigenous-identity-questions-hurtful

Excerpt:

"Throughout her career, conflicting stories about her adoption have been published. Some say she was an infant, others that she was two to three years old when she was taken by the American family. Some say her birth parents died, and her mother was killed in a car crash.

“I was adopted into the Piapot family, not I was adopted out of Piapot reserve. That makes a big difference.”

"The Piapot family said in a statement that allegations against Sainte-Marie are “hurtful, ignorant, colonial — and racist.” They said the singer was adopted in the traditional way.

“We claim her as a member of our family and all of our family members are from the Piapot First Nation. To us, that holds far more weight than any paper documentation or colonial record keeping ever could,” the family said."


I think if the Piapot family is saying Buffy was adopted into their family "in the traditional way" that should be the conclusion.

I'm sorry for the hurt this is causing.

Maybe a great Global Faith Leader can have her adopted into THE LAMANITE GENERATION and have her sing GO MY SON at BYU to prove her Lamaniteness?

  
  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Placement_Program#:~:text=In%20October%201960%2C%20Kimball%20discussed,becoming%20%22white%20and%20delightsome%22.

In October 1960, Kimball discussed the program at the General Conference. He said that Natives who participated in the program were gradually turning lighter, becoming "white and delightsome".[9] "The day of the Lamanites is nigh", Kimball said, claiming that Navajo placement students were "as light as Anglos" and, in one case, several shades lighter than parents "on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather."[9] The Church has moved away from other race-based qualifications that have since been repudiated by the church. See, e.g. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, "Race and the Priesthood".[10] Additionally, racial references in scripture headings, not considered doctrine, have been removed, although the verses within each chapter remain largely unchanged.[11]

The thing about the claim that some of the kids were getting lighter, apparently due to their adherence to good mormon principles, is that it allowed the mothers of girls I dated to point out, in July, August and September, that, "Oh, look, he's getting darker!!!  Best you stay away from him!!"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

The "Keep America Beautiful" crying indian. Turns out he was Sicilian. So what? The guy could act.

Something tells me the people raising the fuss are white.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something tells me the people raising the fuss are
> white.

Not entirely.

Indigenous people are understandably peeved at cultural appropriation. That's why incidents like this are so controversial.

They speak out too if they feel some wrong has been done.

For we outsiders, it's an ongoing education - if we want to keep up that is.

It sounds like she is at least half Cree through her birth mother, and she was also later adopted by a Cree couple to whom she may be related. I don't see what the fuss is about.

What difference does it make if you like their craft?

Shania Twain puts out great music.

They and everybody can't help or change from where they came, they and the rest of us can only control where they/we are going.

I think that people don't like misrepresentation, especially when it comes to people representing themselves as indigenous. But IMO Buffy has a more than reasonable claim to being indigenous.

Her birth certificate was easily attainable. All the investigating reporter had to do was walk into the town hall of the town where she was born and ask to see it. Wonder why Buffy didn't think to do that. She was born to a father of Italian descent and a mother of Anglo descent. She bears a strong physical resemblance to her mother and her father and her siblings. She was most definitely not adopted. She started claiming to be of Cree ancestry after she had started her career, when she was in her 20s. She has been making these claims so long, I am sure she believes them herself. She has had very little to do with what she calls her growing-up family. She did not grow up in Canada. She grew up in Massachusetts.

I'll say this for her -- she is VERY VERY convincing. She embraced the Cree culture so tightly she may have believed it body mind and soul. She plays Indian musical instruments. She sings Indian songs (or native American, but she refers to herself as "Indian.")

She goes on Sesame Street to tell the little children the truth about Indian culture. Her truth, anyway.

No doubt about it, this is one talented lady. When I look at her and say to myself "she looks Italian," then she looks Italian.

When I look at her and say to myself "She looks Indian," then she looks Indian.

My older sister, who had difficulties with the truth (psychologists call it "fabricating," I call it "telling whoppers") was CONVINCED she was a European princess hiding out in this weird Mormon family because the bad guys were out to get her and they NEVER would go looking for her at our house (they probably wouldn't.) If you tried to contradict her, all hell broke loose.

One thing I have learned about people who tell whoppers: You contradict them at your own peril.

Teal Swan, who has her very own YouTube channel and some Mormonism in her background (check out Mormon Stories) is another teller of whoppers.

It turns out that she DIDN'T get kidnapped on a nightly basis so she could get repeatedly raped and forced to participate in hideous Satanic rituals which included murdering babies and getting sewn into corpses. At least that's what some nay-sayers have to say about it.

Who knew? Sounds perfectly credible to me.

Anyway BSM, AKA Beverly Jean Santamaria was born into an ordinary upper middle class, Caucasian family (home movies to prove it) went to college, and reinvented herself as a 100 percent Canadian born Cree Indian (or Native American) Canada even issued a postage stamp with her image on it. Way to go, Buffy!

No doubt about it, BSM is one talented woman.

She just isn't a native born native American.

Doncha love it when somebody says they are speaking "my truth."

They don't seem to get it that "my truth" isn't the same as The Truth.

And that's the truth!

My understanding is that when a child is adopted, a new birth certificate is issued to reflect the names of the adoptive parents. So a birth certificate showing Stoneham, Mass. as her "birthplace" along with Albert and Winifred Santamaria as her [white] parents would be expected under the circumstances. It doesn't mean that she was not born elsewhere. And if she was born on or near the Piapot Cree tribal lands in the 1940s, she may never have been issued a birth certificate there. Think about how many tribal children were removed from their homes and families and sent to faraway schools, including by the LDS. Did those children have all their documentation in order? My recollection is that a number of them were buried in unmarked graves.  

I have worked with indigenous students for many years, and my opinion is that she looks very much indigenous.

Her birth certificate is in sequential order of births that happened on a particular day and is authenticated by their system of record keeping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsqCWNCUc4

The tribe says says she's one of them and she's part of their family and that's what counts.

So many adopted kids had their history erased. Both Native and mixed race babies in the US were taken and adopted as "ethnic" Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Latino, etc., so no wonder things like this happen.

CBC Fifth Estate News Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsqCWNCUc4



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2023 04:06PM by anybody.

>> The tribe says [she's} one of them and she's part of their family and that's what counts.

I agree. Each tribe gets to set its own standards for membership. The tribe has accepted her as a member, and that's all that counts.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each tribe gets to set its own standards
> for membership. The tribe has accepted her as a
> member, and that's all that counts.

Yes, exactly.

The trouble some say is that they are taking away the legitimacy and the ability to make money from actual indigenous people when people who are not actually indigenous people collect grants, etc. that are not their due.

devoted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The trouble some say is that they are taking away
> the legitimacy and the ability to make money from
> actual indigenous people when people who are not
> actually indigenous people collect grants, etc.
> that are not their due.

Yes, I understand, devoted.

I wish this hadn't happened in BSM's life and especially at her age, when most people would be taking time out for themselves and reflecting on their life's accomplishments. Tragic to have it questioned, especially if she had no bad motives. I think it's wise, as some have commented in this thread, to be aware of the nightmare of the 60's scoop etc that wrought havoc in families and lives. I wouldn't stake my life on the paperwork being 100% accurate, if there even is any for everybody so affected by all the societal ills that have befallen them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2023 08:34PM by Nightingale.

Here's another article about it, with some more details:


https://indianz.com/News/2023/10/25/canadian-documentary-focuses-on-icon-who-based-career-on-native-identity/

I hope people don't leap to wrong conclusions without knowing the set of facts. Somehow, once an idea takes root it is nearly impossible to eradicate it even if it's provably incorrect.

Isn't CHER in somewhat the same situation?

How!

Why!

Who?

I think Cher singing the song 'Half Breed' has been rationalized/justified by somewhat ambiguous referrals to a g.parent or other ancestor of hers who was suggested to be Native/Indigenous American.


I think of the song as derogatory, so I removed it from my phone playlist.

The only thing you can't partly be is paet black in America or part Jewish in Continental Europe.

Not entirely true: my wife is half-Jewish (her Dad, so she's not "full" Jewish). They rejected the religion about 4 generations ago. My children are also part-Jewish. Is ther something I didn't understand here (i.e. an American joke)?

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not entirely true: my wife is half-Jewish (her
> Dad, so she's not "full" Jewish). They rejected
> the religion about 4 generations ago. My children
> are also part-Jewish. Is ther something I didn't
> understand here (i.e. an American joke)?

Yes, sort of.

I'm referring to the "one drop" hypodescent social convention.

In America and other former British North American colonies, you can't be part black. This was once legal, but some people still believe in this.

In Europe, in the past this was also the case with Roma people and Jews (i.e treating a religion as a "race") and has nothing to do with the actual rules in Judaism. Michael Douglas has written about how he was bullied by kids for being Jewish even though he's only considered half and not by tradition with a non Jewish mother.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2023 07:11AM by anybody.

Anybody wrote in part:

"In America and other former British North American colonies, you can't be part black. This was once legal, but some people still believe in this."

Interesting. On many forms now, including the U.S. Census form, there are choices for "mixed race" and "not willing to say."

Mixed-race or multiracial categories were not recognised until relatively recently and each state had different laws.

Who was legally considered to be "white" in America has a long, tortured history.

Originally, only Northern Europeans were so, then that was expanded after WWI to include Italians, Greeks, North Africans, Slavs, etc. There was one famous court case that decided high caste Hindus, although "technically" white given the anthropological biases at the time, weren't from Europe, were not white, so they couldn't be citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind

Here's another famous case from 1982:

###################

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125710814#:~:text=In%20New%20Orleans%20in%201982,to%20get%20a%20passport%2C%20she

In New Orleans in 1982, Susie Guillory Phipps went to court to have herself and her parents and blond, blue-eyed siblings declared "white." When the 48-year old, pale, raven-haired Phipps, who had married a white man and had always been known as white, had obtained her birth certificate in order to get a passport, she discovered that she was designated "colored." The reason, she found out, was that she was the great-great-great-great granddaughter of a slave, Margarita, who had had a child in 1770 by a white French planter. The state's lawyers challenged her claim to be white on the grounds that she was three-thirty seconds black, and they won.

###################



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2023 12:29PM by anybody.

Thanks, I get the reference now. Living as I do in a country where it is illegal to collect "racial" data, let alone use it for statistics, this is even weirder for me. It's a hangover from "scientific racism". Ridiculous and horrible.

Did any Gypsies, tramps or thieves complain?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHhWkz5aMc

I heard nothing from the people in the town...

Reminds me of the American joke: what do you get if you put 24 white people together? One whole Cherokee.

There are a lot of people who pretend to be native in North America. Canada is no different.

But it all depends on definitions. It might surprise people to know that telephone inventor Alexander Graham Bell was 100% Mohawk. That's because despite being born in Scotland to indigenous Scottish parents, he was made an honorary member of their tribe.

"S**t, there ain't a white man in this room that would change places with me. None of you. None of you would change places with me, and I'm rich!"


—Chris Rock

Pistols at Dawn, how long have you been Pistols at Dawn?

He seems to care a lot about Canada and Scotland, no?

Back in the 20-oh-ohs I used to exchange blog posts with a fine gentleman whose screen name was Pistols at Dawn.  It brought back a host of pleasant memories.  This was when I was a passive exmo v. the a--hole exmo I've become.

I'll also note that in 2025, should I make it to that plateau, I'll have been 30 years on the internet and 40 years bouncing around on cell towers.

Interesting. It would be cool if you re-established that connection.

It's like I've been taunted, just because he/she/it likes to be...whatever it is he/she/it is trying to be.

Although I'm not impressed (after all, I know YOU!), I'm sure others are.

“Former judge and law professor Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond has been removed from the ranks of Canadians holding the country’s top honour [the Order of Canada]".

Article:

https://globalnews.ca/news/10069918/mary-ellen-turpel-lafond-order-of-canada/?utm_source=notification

Excerpts:

“Turpel-Lafond has returned or been stripped of a number of awards and honorary titles, after her claims of Indigenous ancestry were discredited.”

“She served as director of the UBC Indian Residential School History and Dialogue Centre until June 2022, and parted ways with the university’s Allard School of Law in January this year.”

“In a statement posted to her Twitter account that month, she maintained she was “of Cree, Scottish & English heritage & hold the name aki-kwe & am an active member of the Muskeg Lake Cree Nation. My credentials have been vetted at the highest levels of our country.”

“At the time Muskeg Cree Nation Chief Kelly Wolf confirmed Turpel-Lafond had been a member of the nation for three decades, and that she was a member of one of its kinship families.”

-----

I'd have to read more to get the full picture re each of these women.

It must be difficult beyond measure to have to deal with a public questioning of one's very identity.

I'm sorry this is happening to these two women who have been seen to be distinguished in their fields.

What is unfortunate is that before any inquiry is thorough and conclusive they have faced decidedly negative consequences and very much in the public eye.

I can't form any firm conclusions right now because I don't know their full stories. It's too bad though that it's one of those things where public opinion is already quickly formed and it's difficult to make corrections, if any are to be made, and then change opinions back. Once people have a certain opinion an avalanche of facts immediately or down the line cannot take it all back and make a person whole again.

Instant and widespread media is both a blessing and a curse, especially if misused. And once a mind is made up, it can be highly difficult to shed any light on the subject for that individual. Most of us have personal experience with that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2023 08:54PM by Nightingale.

Wow

why hasn't someone mentioned "CA" ?


(cultural approbation)

My great-great grandmother was full-blooded Cree. It's a part of my ancestry that I'm proud of. I believe in honouring every single ancestor that I have because without even one of them, I wouldn't be here. But that doesn't mean that I know anything about being Cree. At least I stopped calling my poor ancestors Lamanites. Geez. LOL I'm embarrassed that I did.

So the idea is that Buffy was adopted into a Cree family? Then that is her family. I don't get what they're all upset about. If she was raised in the Cree Nation, then of course she identifies with that.

Human beings are turning mean. It's not a positive direction.

She was born in Massachusetts to a set of parents who where of English and Italian ancestry. Those are the facts. She started her career as a folk singer and was pretty good at getting gigs. As her career lagged, she adopted the idea that she was of native ancestry. First, she said she was Algonquin, later of a tribe from Maine. It was much later that she claimed Cree. And only after she was assumed to be of Cree ancestry that she visited the tribe and befriended by the leader at the time. Her family tried to set the record strait, but she threatened them that she would sue them if they persisted with the truth.

This is not trying to destroy her reputation any more than has been done to anyone else who tries to profit off of a lie (like Joseph Smith).

Her Massachusetts birth certificate could be meaningless, since it is customary to issue a new birth certificate when a child is adopted. Her birth certificate does not necessarily mean that she was born in Massachusetts to those particular parents. The CBC News may not have understood this.

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/buffy-sainte-marie

Basically the only pieces of evidence the CBC cites are the birth certificate (which could have been issued after an adoption,) and a verbal account by Buffy's niece, Heidi St. Marie. Heidi stated that she was always told that Buffy "was my Uncle Albert's child." Notice that there is no mention of Albert's wife. So Buffy's assertion that she has some Cree ancestry could align with that. Also, her parents in Massachusetts chose never to comment on Buffy's origins.

It's entirely possible that Buffy's origin story was fabricated. but IMO the evidence the CBC cites is not adequate to make that claim.

Interestingly, the hospital where she is alleged to have been born (New England Sanitarium and Hospital,) was located on an Indian Reservation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Regional_Medical_Center

I tried to look up information about the physician listed on the birth certificate -- Herbert Land, M.D. of No. Reading, Mass. I haven't found anything beyond the fact that he was from the same town as Buffy's family, and that he completed his career as an E.R. doc.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2023 09:47AM by summer.

"Stoneham’s town clerk, Maria Sagarino, who found the birth certificate, said, “I can say absolutely with 100 per cent certainty that this is the original birth certificate. Beverly Jean Santamaria was born in Stoneham, Mass., at New England Sanatorium and Hospital on Feb. 20, 1941.”

The New England Sanatorium and Hospital is in Stoneham Mass.

This youtube video on the subject has a lot of information that's
a lot more convincing than her shifting narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsqCWNCUc4

Edit to add that Buffy's son has taken a DNA test as have her siblings and they are shown to be related. Buffy herself has not taken a DNA test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2023 12:06PM by devoted.

Well, it was the birth certificate that was filed at the time. If she was adopted as an infant, how would the town clerk know the difference? Plus, the date on the bottom of the certificate has been doctored, probably for innocent reasons (it is unclear in the image,) but if one is using it as proof, it doesn't help that it's been altered.

I'm just saying that if I were on a jury, I would not find the evidence presented to be persuasive.

It's the system that they followed that makes it impossible that she was born somewhere else at a different time with a different doctor to the one that also delivered her sister. But never mind the birth certificate, her son is biologically related to the brothers and sisters she grew up with. That cannot be the case if she was born to native people in Canada.

Well, let's say that her white father was her bio dad who had Buffy with a woman other than her mother. So yes, she would still be biologically related to her family members.

We had an illegitimate birth in my mom's family around the same time frame, and obfuscation around illegitimate births was what happened back then. Plus my mom said that adoptions often happened within families at that time. So if her dad fathered an illegitimate child, he could have brought it home and subsequently had it adopted by his wife and covered up. In my cousin's case, it was so well hidden within the family that she did not get it figured out until she was well into middle age.

Again, not saying that is what happened in Buffy's case. But it's possible given the culture of the time.

ETA: I'm going to reiterate that if a birth certificate is going to be used as evidence, it's best if one of the dates on it hasn't been visibly altered (the date of filing.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2023 02:11PM by summer.

I know there are a lot of unrecognized tribes – some of which are bona fide and some which aren't – but is it possible to buy tribal membership from any of these groups?

No

Would an adoptive birth certificate initiated by a tribal authority be recognized as legitimate?

This sounds as if it's been highly manipulated, therefore lacking credibility.

Does she stand by the European roots story and become more light and delightsome, or does she pursue the adoptive Lamanite roots narrative and become dark and loathsome? I have seen the variations in her pigmentation as she struggles with this issue. /s

JJ