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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 01:11PM

Have been having a discussion with some friends about Jesus and his life.
They keep showing me records/referrals to records about him to prove he lived.

None of these are records from Government or independent sources WHILE HE SUPPOSEDLY LIVED. All are from later times.

Is there any kind of actual record of Jesus from the time he was supposedly Alive?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 01:23PM

The great Minnesotan Paul Bunyan swore on Babe, the Blue Ox's grave, that he had seen proof that Jesus lived, breathed, pissed, and pooped and died for our sins, and I am certain that no one would ever doubt Mr. Bunyan!

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:09PM

Isn't he in the official genealogy church website? ;-)

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:22PM

This brings up the question, "Do all dogs go to heaven?" and why are god and dog palindromic?  Is that a sign?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:49PM

Imagine being the old lady managing the dog genealogy section. I suspect the real reason computers were invented was to help keep track of dog genealogy records.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 05:18AM

"Why are god and dog palindromic? Is that a sign?"

It's a sign you're speaking English...

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:48PM

none.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:49PM

There's also evidence proving Pontius Pilate's existence (he was a prefect and not of Senatorial social rank and not a governor). There probably was a real Jesus of Nazareth, but that doesn't mean that person was of divine origin or an avatar of god. That's something you have to believe -- or not.

###############

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus (now in modern Turkey), wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around AD 112 and asked for counsel on dealing with the early Christian community. The letter (Epistulae X.96) details an account of how Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before him as a result of anonymous accusations and asks for the Emperor's guidance on how they should be treated.[1][2]

Neither Pliny nor Trajan mentions the crime that Christians were supposed to have committed, except for being a Christian; and other historical sources do not provide a simple answer to what that crime could be, but most likely due to the stubborn refusal of Christians to worship Roman gods; making them appear as objecting to Roman rule.[3][4]

Pliny states that he gives Christians multiple chances to affirm they are innocent and if they refuse three times, they are executed. Pliny states that his investigations have revealed nothing on the Christians' part but harmless practices and "depraved, excessive superstition." However, Pliny seems concerned about the rapid spread of their practices and views Christian gatherings as a potential starting point for sedition.[4]

The letter is the first pagan account to refer to Christianity, providing key information on early Christian beliefs and practices and how these were viewed and dealt with by the Romans.[2][5][6] The letter and Trajan's reply indicate that at the time of its writing there was no systematic and official persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire.[7][8] There was persecution of Christians before this but only on a local basis, like the Neronian persecution in Rome[9][10] or the expulsion of Jewish-Christians and Jews from Rome by order of Claudius.[11] Trajan's reply also offers valuable insight into the relationship between Roman provincial governors and Emperors and indicates that at the time Christians were not sought out or tracked down by imperial orders, and that persecutions could be local and sporadic.[12]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2023 02:50PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:55PM

And we know that Spiderman is real because New York City exists.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 03:00PM

Ha

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 02:56PM

IF JESUS REALLY DID TURN WATER INTO WINE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST FAMOUS PERSON IN THE WHOLE ROMAN EMPIRE. BUT NOTHING. ZERO, ZIP, NADA. MAYBE THERE'S A CLUE IN THERE SOMEWHERE.

I'll be quiet now.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 03:06PM

#################

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Nero



After the emperor Nero committed suicide near the villa of his freedman Phaon in June of 68 AD, various Nero impostors appeared between the autumn of 69 AD and the reign of the emperor Domitian.[1] Most scholars set the number of Nero impostors to two or three, although St. Augustine wrote of the popularity of the belief that Nero would return in his day, known as the Nero Redivivus legend.[2] In addition to the three documented Pseudo-Neros, Suetonius refers to imperial edicts forged in the dead Nero's name that encouraged his followers and promised his imminent return to avenge himself on his enemies.[3]

Due to the short-lived success of the Nero impostors and Nero's incorporation into eschatological literature, the belief in Nero's imminent return lasted for centuries. Lion Feuchtwanger wrote a historical novel published in 1936 based on the second known Pseudo-Nero, Terentius Maximus, entitled Der falsche Nero.

Belief in Nero's survival may be attributed in part to the obscure location of his death, although, according to Suetonius, Galba's freedman Icelus saw the dead emperor's body and reported back to his master. Nero was also denied the lavish burial that was accorded to popular emperors and members of the imperial family, which may have left those plebeians who loved him dissatisfied and suspicious. Furthermore, he was not buried in the Mausoleum of Augustus with the other Julio-Claudian emperors, but in a tomb on the Pincian Hill at the family burial place of the Domitii Ahenobarbi.[4] The postmortem popularity of Nero among the Roman plebeians inspired them to lay flowers at his tomb.

Another possible source of inspiration for those who impersonated Nero was the circulation of prophecies that predicted he would regain his kingdom in the East.[5] One version placed his resurgence at Jerusalem. These prophecies have been tied to Nero's natal chart, which has been interpreted as pointing to a loss of his patrimony and its recovery in the East.[6] Tacitus may have been referring to such prophecies in veiled language when he wrote of the rumors that circulated about Nero after his death, which had contributed to the belief that he had survived. The return of Nero may have inspired the author of the Book of Revelation when he wrote about the eschatological opponent called the Beast, which is mortally wounded and then miraculously heals.[7] The number of the Beast, 666 or 616, depending on the manuscript, has been identified by some as the numerical value of the letters in Nero's name.[8] Nero also appears more explicitly in this role in the Ascension of Isaiah and some of the books of the Sibylline Oracles. Owing to these prophecies and others, Nero was long thought to be the Antichrist.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2023 03:41PM by anybody.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 03:38PM

Yummmm, trouples!!

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 03:54PM

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/05/18/superabundant-oregon-truffle-food-culture/

Oregon’s truffles are true hometown heroes. These superabundant mushrooms can fetch up to $800 a pound. Plus, they help Oregon’s mysterious and beautiful forests thrive, all while delighting adventurers, chefs, foodies and truffle dogs alike. Their culinary appeal is no accident: Truffles make their living by getting animals to do their bidding.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2023 03:55PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:10PM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IF JESUS REALLY DID TURN WATER INTO WINE HE WOULD
> HAVE BEEN THE MOST FAMOUS PERSON IN THE WHOLE
> ROMAN EMPIRE.

He would have done an IPO on the Jerusalem Stock Market, gotten rich, and founded the Bethlehem Institute of Technology.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:45PM

Haven't you heard the story of Jesus and his 12 lawyers before?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:47PM

Why yes, now that you mention it. But in the version I heard it was Jesus and his 15 lawyers.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:54PM

Well, one got fired, one stole sacred secrets, and another was disbarred. It's probably in the Acts of the Lawyers book of the Bible.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:57PM

Wait a second.

Aren't Jesus and the 15 lawyers in SLC? Suddenly it seems that I've missed the point!

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:59PM

No worries, the current church structure is just as it was during the time of Jesus. You're right either way!

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 03:03PM

Look up Bart Ehrman’s video on this subject on Youtube.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 09:13PM

You might also find this to be of interest.



########################

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

The Annals passage (15.44), which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD.[11] The key part of the passage reads as follows (translation from Latin by A. J. Church and W. J. Brodribb, 1876):

Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.[12]


But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Tacitus then describes the torture of Christians:

Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.[13]

The exact cause of the fire remains uncertain, but much of the population of Rome suspected that Emperor Nero had started the fire himself.[11] To divert attention from himself, Nero accused the Christians of starting the fire and persecuted them, making this the first documented confrontation between Christians and the authorities in Rome.[11] Tacitus suggested that Nero used the Christians as scapegoats.[14]

As with almost all ancient Greek and Latin literature,[15] no original manuscripts of the Annals exist. The surviving copies of Tacitus' major works derive from two principal manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, which are held in the Laurentian Library in Florence, Italy.[16] The second of them (Plut. 68.2), as the only one containing books xi–xvi of the Annales, is the oldest witness to the passage describing Christians.[17] Scholars generally agree that this codex was written in the 11th century at the Benedictine abbey of Monte Cassino and its end refers to Abbas Raynaldus cu... who was most probably one of the two abbots of that name at the abbey during that period.[17]



########################


The Circus Maximus still exists, but Nero's Circus is long gone. The site was abandoned by the second century. The Vatican now occupies the site.


########################


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circus_of_Nero


The Ager Vaticanus, the alluvial plain outside the city walls on the west bank of the Tiber, was developed at the end of the first century BC,[2] allowing patrician families to construct luxurious private residences (Horti).[3] The Horti Agrippinae villa-estate belonged to Agrippina the Elder and was inherited by her son Caligula (r. 31–41 AD). He was a chariot-racing enthusiast and began construction of the circus which was completed by Claudius (r. 41-54 AD).

The privately owned circus and Horti were then inherited by Nero who made the circus public so he could invite them to cheer him on.[4] He also used both of these to lodge Romans made homeless by the great fire of 64. The circus was used in 65 to carry out mass executions of the Christians accused as scapegoats of the fire itself.[5] Because of this the area beyond the Tiber north of Trastevere was known as "Nero's meadows" until the end of the Middle Ages.[6]

The circus was also the site of St. Peter’s and St. Paul’s martyrdom.

The circus was abandoned by the middle of the second century AD, when the area was partitioned and given in concession to private individuals for the construction of tombs in the necropolis.

Old St. Peter's Basilica was erected by Constantine over the site using some of the existing structure of the Circus of Nero. The basilica was sited so that its apse was centred on Peter's tomb (now beneath the high altar of the current St Peter's Basilica). Most of the ruins of the Circus survived until 1450, when they were finally destroyed by the construction of the new St. Peter's Basilica.

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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: November 19, 2023 09:58PM

There are several book-length studies arguing that Jesus never existed:

Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle
G.A.Wells, The Historical Evidence For Jesus (he argues there is none; He also wrote several later books on the topic)

Bart Ehrman, however, wrote Did Jesus Exist?, arguing that he did exist.

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 01:49PM

I've wondered about the existence of Jesus.

The Romans were conducting a census at the time. Romans were known to have great documentation and records, but no one has anything on Mary and Joseph, ergo, Jesus.

Then there's the situation that there are two Bethlehems, one about 5 miles from Jerusalem and the other about 60 miles away.

The information is too confusing convince me.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 03:48PM

I don't think the Romans ever tried to discover and report actual names. Their censuses were just "head counts" used to impose and collect taxes.

As for Jesus (not to be confused with his namesake Jesus), there were almost certainly dozens or scores of men with that name in Palestine 2000 years ago. The odds suggest that one or more of them must have been a rabbi or popular teacher of some other sort. The "Jesus" of the bible was probably based on some number of those people.

There were also lots of different schools of thought, including some that were quite close to what the bible attributes to Jesus. I therefore don't know how one could ever prove or disprove the existence of a peripatetic preacher who taught a relatively loving philosophy to his followers.

What is clear is that there is no objective evidence anywhere that the purportedly historical "Jesus" was divine (almost a contradiction in terms) or performed miracles. Also evident is the fact that Jesus changed dramatically from the earliest to the latest gospel; that the Gospel of John is not compatible with the other gospels; and that Christianity diverged even more sharply from "Jesus" and his teachings once Paul got involved. In short, historical questions and the value, plus or minus, of his teachings.

So does it matter whether there was a preacher named Jesus? In most contexts it does not. "Jesus," as redefined many times, has become a colossal presence in the modern world and as such is important even if fundamentally mythological.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 05:30PM

Lots of other miracle workers besides Jesus of Nazareth.

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/2005/03/jesus-just-another-wonder-worker.aspx


My bet is that Jesus was a real person, but "The Christ" is/was a mythological fabrication based on the real person who lived and died. Remember that the Jesus stories -- the Gospels -- were written for a Roman / Greek audience as faith promoting propaganda, not literal truth. Paul et al. started a new religion based on the long dead executed rabbi. Blame for Jesus' death had to be shifted away from the people they were trying to recruit. Just think of how many legends are based on the Buddha.

It's a lot easier to make up legends based on a real person than it is to make up someone who never existed.


Example: Prester John -- the mysterious Christian king in the East of medieval legend based on tales of Christians in Asia.

Was Wang Khan Prester John? The Ethiopian Emperor? Bishop of Syria?


################

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John


Prester John (Latin: Presbyter Ioannes) was a legendary Christian patriarch, presbyter, and king. Stories popular in Europe in the 12th to the 17th centuries told of a Church of the East patriarch and king who was said to rule over a Christian nation lost amid the pagans and Muslims in the Orient.[1]: 28  The accounts were often embellished with various tropes of medieval popular fantasy, depicting Prester John as a descendant of the Three Magi, ruling a kingdom full of riches, marvels, and strange creatures.

At first, Prester John was imagined to reside in India. Tales of Church of the East Christians' evangelistic success there and of Thomas the Apostle's subcontinental travels as documented in works like the Acts of Thomas probably provided the first seeds of the legend. After the coming of the Mongols to the Western world, accounts placed the king in Central Asia, and eventually Portuguese explorers came to believe that the term was a reference to Ethiopia, by which time it had been an isolated Christian "exclave" distant from any other Christian-ruled territory.


Though its immediate genesis is unclear, the legend of Prester John drew strongly from earlier accounts of the Orient and of Westerners' travels there. Particularly influential were the stories of Saint Thomas the Apostle's proselytizing in India, recorded especially in the third-century work known as the Acts of Thomas. This text inculcated in Westerners an image of India as a place of exotic wonders and offered the earliest description of Saint Thomas establishing a Christian sect there, motifs that loomed large over later accounts of Prester John.[2]

Similarly, distorted reports of movements in Asia of the Church of the East (Nestorianism) informed the legend as well. This church had gained a wide following in the Eastern nations and engaged the Western imagination as an assemblage both exotic and familiarly Christian.[3] Particularly inspiring were the Church of the East's missionary successes among the Mongols and Turks of Central Asia; French historian René Grousset suggests that the Prester John story may have had its origins in the Kerait clan, which had thousands of its members join the Church of the East shortly after the year 1000. By the 12th century, the Kerait rulers were still following a custom of bearing Christian names, which may have fueled the legend.[4]
Prester John from Hartmann Schedel's Nuremberg Chronicle, 1493

Additionally, the tradition may have drawn from the shadowy early Christian figure John the Presbyter of Syria, whose existence is first inferred by the ecclesiastical historian and bishop Eusebius of Caesarea based on his reading of earlier church fathers.[5] This man, said in one document to be the author of two of the Epistles of John,[6] was supposed to have been the teacher of the martyr bishop Papias, who had in turn taught Irenaeus. However, little links this figure, supposedly active in the late first century, to the Prester John legend beyond the name.[7] The title "Prester" is an adaptation of the Greek word "πρεσβύτερος, presbuteros", literally meaning "elder" and used as a title of priests holding a high office (indeed, presbyter is the origin of the English word priest).[8][9]

#################



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2023 05:38PM by anybody.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 06:48PM

...I remember being told quite a while back that Catholic bishops and popes chose the books used in the Old and New Testaments, not for their factual basis, but rather for the ideas these people wanted to get across. It is suspected for example, that the gospel of Thomas found in Egypt was one of the books that was not included in the Bible because its messages did not match the Machiavellian messages that those who created the modern Bible wanted to send.

As a side note, how and why the modern Bible were created should also lead to why it cannot be considered as inspiration for any part of the U.S. Constitution, despite the arguments of the late Cleon Skowsen and others..

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 07:03PM

Elaine Pagels argues that Thomas was in the final running and was rejected not because of its contents but because, like the first three gospels, it did not have a definite statement that Jesus was divine. John was chosen instead because the early church fathers needed to get that Jesus-is-God doctrine in the emerging Bible.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 12:19AM

https://www.gospels.net/thomas


https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Miscellaneous/gospel_of_thomas.pdf

https://davidmichie.com/was-jesus-like-the-buddha-really-a-teacher-of-inner-transformation/

Cynthia Bourgeault says that ‘Christianity, as a religion, got off on the wrong foot from the start.’ In the early years after Jesus, his followers were fragmented, each with their own views about what he taught and the emphasis to be placed on one set of messages or another.

Over time these coalesced into two main groupings. One group, wishing to live as much as possible in accordance with his teachings of peace-on-earth and goodwill-to-all-men, sought to create a universal church, in which everyone could become a member of the same, human family. People could become a part of this Utopian vision, instantly, by signing up to certain credal beliefs and taking part in rituals associated with the most pivotal moments of their lives – birth, marriage and death. All this was overseen by bishops and priests, initially appointed by several of the followers to whom Jesus had appeared after his crucifixion, and whose authority was, by this very experience, preserved for all time.

For another group, Jesus’s teachings had little to do with joining a club or participating in community rituals. To them, spirituality was a process of seeking to experience the divine within. For this reason they became known as ‘gnostics’, from the Greek word ‘gnosis’ meaning the personal experience of insight. The gnostic experience was a process requiring much time, effort and self-discipline, making it unattainable, and possibly unattractive to many people. Oral teachings were passed from teacher to student, when the former considered the latter to be ready, irrespective of whether they were male, female, priest or lay person. Spiritual development wasn’t something others could do for you – nor did the title of priest or bishop automatically bestow any particular insights. There was little formal structure, and while pursuing this necessarily solitary pursuit, what really counted was not stated belief and ritual, but direct, personal experience.

You don’t have to be a social scientist to understand why one of these two groups prevailed over the other. And history, as they say, is written by the winners. By 200 AD, the first group had taken full control of the Jesus narrative, condemning alternative views as heretic, banning their literature and suppressing their adherents with the same zeal as Middle Eastern despots of our own era.

In the words of Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University:

“What we call Christianity – and what we identify as Christian tradition – actually represents only a small selection of specific sources, chosen from among dozens of others. Who made that selection, and for what reasons? Why were these other writings excluded and banned as ‘heresy’? What made them so dangerous?’

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 12:50AM

Your last paragraph identifies the problem with the preceding several. Pagels (and Ehrman in Lost Christianities) explains that there were countless Christian sects in both the more literal and the gnostic camps. It is misleading, furthermore, to treat the gnostics as a coherent movement since they comprised congeries of maverick groups that coalesced and separated all the time. There was never any serious attempt to unify them because the adherents were always running away to contemplate their inner deities like the Essenes before and the eremites to come.

Nor was there ever a clear boundary between the gnostics and the structural (my own imprecise term) Christians. In fact, there were many gnostic movements nestled within the structural churches, teaching that the gnostic subsets lived by a higher law than the churches themselves. That was one of the reasons for the brutal crackdowns by the organized sects, for they must eradicate those within their ranks with divided loyalties. The Mormon church does the same thing, of course, crushing such smaller movements-within-the-movement as Denver Snuffer's cult, the Dehlin and Kelly groups, etc.

I'm also skeptical of the Buddhist gloss for the simple reason that the two religions were radically different. Can you find gnostic readings that show some of the same theosophic traits as eastern faiths? Yes, but you can do the same thing with Native American religions. Moreover "Jesus" never disowned Judaism or its institutions, which is a critical point. He wanted to reform the faith of his fathers, not eradicate it.

Meanwhile Boureault is not a credible source on early Christian history. She has a Ph.D. in Medieval Studies and calls herself a "modern-day mystic," which is about all I need to conclude she's a quack. My preference is for Pagels, Ehrman and the like.

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Posted by: GetBack ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 07:03PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think the Romans ever tried to discover
> and report actual names. Their censuses were just
> "head counts" used to impose and collect taxes.
>
> As for Jesus (not to be confused with his namesake
> Jesus), there were almost certainly dozens or
> scores of men with that name in Palestine 2000
> years ago. The odds suggest that one or more of
> them must have been a rabbi or popular teacher of
> some other sort. The "Jesus" of the bible was
> probably based on some number of those people.
>
> There were also lots of different schools of
> thought, including some that were quite close to
> what the bible attributes to Jesus. I therefore
> don't know how one could ever prove or disprove
> the existence of a peripatetic preacher who taught
> a relatively loving philosophy to his followers.
>
> What is clear is that there is no objective
> evidence anywhere that the purportedly historical
> "Jesus" was divine (almost a contradiction in
> terms) or performed miracles. Also evident is the
> fact that Jesus changed dramatically from the
> earliest to the latest gospel; that the Gospel of
> John is not compatible with the other gospels; and
> that Christianity diverged even more sharply from
> "Jesus" and his teachings once Paul got involved.
> In short, historical questions and the value, plus
> or minus, of his teachings.
>
> So does it matter whether there was a preacher
> named Jesus? In most contexts it does not.
> "Jesus," as redefined many times, has become a
> colossal presence in the modern world and as such
> is important even if fundamentally mythological.

Didn't the Beatles try it and receive disastrous results?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 04:02PM

While there assuredly individuals named Jesus Carpenter, there is no record of a Jesus H. Carpenter, which I think is probative!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2023 04:03PM

Did they have accordions 2000 years ago? How about bolo ties?

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 09:47AM

"They keep showing me records/referrals to records about him to prove he lived."

Your friends are missing the point. Deities are alive in the realm of imagination. Historical physical existence is not necessary for them to be "real".

A case in point is Ganesha, the elephant God. Many Hindus have seen Ganesha even though such a creature is not biologically feasible. Ganesha cannot be a historical figure. But He has devotees for whom he is real. Maybe that makes Him real. When they die they will meet Ganesha.

The problem with historical Jesus is that he is too good to be true. He is more likely a synthesis, a myth, whose archetype lives in the collective unconscious. In other words, the church is true if you believe it. That doesn't help those of us who find the church unbelievable.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 09:51AM

They don't get it. The last thing you need as a religioso is to have your God documented. Ruins everything. Mystery gone. Mars the myth. It's like catching your new crush picking their nose.

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: November 21, 2023 01:21PM

This is a solved problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

You're also welcome to debate the shape of the earth. Have fun.

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