actually means?

Or are you just going to ignore it and pretend that no one is actually trying to make it happen?

Could you expand on that? Or is it too much on the political side?

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could you expand on that? Or is it too much on the
> political side?


I won't mention any political parties and that's not really the issue anyway. This is beyond conventional politics.


I mean religious fundamentalists who want to force everyone else to live they way that they live and believe what they believe -- no matter if you want to or not.


Imagine an American version of Iranian clerical rule, "The Handmaid's Tale," or "If This Goes On" if you've ever read those books.

Given what so much of American Christianity has become--with the aggressive sort a lot more assertive than the moderate kind and hence disproportionately powerful--the prospect is probably closer to the Old Testament rather than the New.

Yes, I see.

Thanks, both.

and putting "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance to prevent "godless atheist communists" from supposedly saying it -- but the real purpose was Christian nationalism (they never thought that real Russian spies would be trained to do and say anything to fit in to accomplish their mission).

The pledge is one thing, having to profess belief in god or membership of a church to be able to live and work is something else altogether.

“The Year of Living Biblically”. A great book written by someone who gave it a go that is light-hearted and down to earth. I know, a bit tangential. But laughter can be the best medicine in some of these depressing times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically

Also a TV series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically

Interesting, Thanks :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2023 12:41PM by anybody.

I'm of the opinion that the male of the species is okay with living under biblical rule...  In fact, those in the mormon-know are looking forward to it!!

Imagine growing up in Mormon society and publicly denying everything, refusing to participate, refusing to go on a mission, and so on.

Trouble from teachers, parents, parents are threatened if you don't "fall into line," etc. Lots of social trouble -- but not legal. It would be difficult, but you could get away.


Not the same in a religiously totalitarian society -- you could face not only social and economic sanction, but imprisonment or death. You'd have to flee the country -- and that wouldn't be easy.


All of this used to be just almost unimaginable dystopian fiction, but not any more. It could happen.

I'm not looking forward to the laying of foreign hands on my eyes to try to get me to see. Yikes!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2023 07:01PM by blindguy.

I think parranoia is a alive and well. While there are some extremists who might seeks such a state there would have to be some monumental shift in the country for this to happen in any real sense. A few weeks ago the topic was a decline in church attendance. Which is it exactly? As someonce involved in "church" I have never heard such a thing suggested. The hot church topic right now, as I see it, is the debate over shifting music styles. Contemporary over traditional. Relax, it is a much hotter topic.

kentish, as much as I admire your views and reasonableness about your religion, the minority is very powerful right now. They are working to find ways to override the majority. The 2nd in line for POTUS is as extreme Christian as it gets with a goal of removing the wall between church and state.

If Christians, even regular ones like you, vote for their pet issue (usually pro life) the American experiment of democracy is in jeopardy. It's nothing to downplay or think can't happen. You and I both live in Idaho. There are many Christian extremists in our local. They appear to be in a power struggle in Idaho Falls but I won't elaborate here into their political issues.

If it was as you say, we would not be in this situation. Obviously enough Christians are supporting extremists. The extremists have convinced many Christians that "traditional" is good and "contemporary" is bad, IMO.

IMO, your contradiction suggests that the more people leave the pews (decreasing attendance) the more aggressive the Christians (or manipulators of Christians) who drive the influence become to keep power. It might seem like they are debating music style, but there has to be some kind of fear or there wouldn't be a rise in everyday Christian moms supporting things like book bans. They are being told they are under attack from the media they frequent. This is nothing to relax over, IMO. I support religions when they are not actively intruding into my rights and our laws.

But surely it is a Constitutional issue. Is the Constitutional separation of church and state so fragile that a few extremists can simply brush it aside while the majorty of Ameicans just stand by and let it happen? I just don't see that happening and I don't even get to vote.

I hope you are right. It depends on judges and interpretation apparently. It's more fragile than I ever realized.

Democracies are fragile. They require the powerful to relinquish their power; they need people to agree to live within a system of rules and laws they often will not like. They are particularly vulnerable to religious zealots; for as Toqueville pointed out 200 years ago, if you fervently believe your God is right it is almost blasphemous to tolerate anything but theocracy.

The vast majority of democracies enjoy certain common attributes, including a Western European, and particularly a protestant, culture; a large and educated middle class; and centuries of experience with constitutionalism and with civil liberties that trump (I crack EOD up) pure democracy. Successful democracies also fare much better when economic and social stability obtain.

But when things get tough, people fall in line behind their secular and religious gods and demand decisive leadership of a sort that democracy often cannot provide. It's a fair bet that until the very end democrats are confident their democracies are secure.

Until they are not.

The U.S. Constitution is just words on a piece of paper. If a majority, or even a large minority of its citizens, decides that it no longer applys to them, then the jig is up and you can kiss the document and what it stands for goodbye.

Regarding the separation of church and state, this is a view of the Constitution's First Amendment held by many qualified historians, experts, and just plain normal people (such as yours truly) that is based on the writings of both James Madison (who was the secretary at the 1787 convention that created the document) and Thomas Jefferson (who wrote most of the document). However, there is a large minority of people, mostly evangelical Christians, who believe that this interpretation of the First Amendment's religious clause is wrong and that it was never intended to keep religion out of government. I support the traditional view not only because that was the view I was first exposed to but also because governments that are based on religion, particularly one set of religious dogma, are dictatorial and are prone to abuses of minorities of both religious and non-religious persuasions (think Iran.)

I hope this explains it.

As I said, this stuff used to be just a remote possibility that only existed in dystopian fiction.

Not any more.


####################

https://time.com/6242260/christians-against-christian-nationalism-violence/

"The notion of restoring the country to greatness as a Christian nation has a long history in America. “Christian nationalism often overlaps with and provides cover for white supremacy and racial subjugation,” Tyler told lawmakers on Dec. 13. “It creates and perpetuates a sense of cultural belonging that is limited to certain people associated with the founding of the United States, namely native-born white Christians.”

While the ideology has deep roots in the country, the rhetoric fusing American and Christian identities has become increasingly popular in young far-right nationalist groups, which declare that “real” Americans are white Christians and hold a particular set of right-wing political beliefs. In recent years, this version of Christian nationalism has incorporated the language of the “Great Replacement Theory,” which claims that there is a vast conspiracy to replace white Americans of European heritage with non-white people.

Christian nationalism has gained steam among young right-wing personalities who have grown large followings. At a conference in March 2021, Nick Fuentes, 24-year-old white nationalist commentator, told an audience that America will cease to be America “if it loses its white demographic core and if it loses its faith in Jesus Christ,” emphasizing its role as a “Christian country.” Last month, he had dinner with former President Donald Trump at Mar-A-Lago, further raising his national profile. "

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I think you only have to look to the public schools to see how this is playing out. The public schools are supposed to be religiously neutral. But some would have it otherwise, by putting up the Ten Commandments and mandating school prayer. There is also the accelerating trend in book banning, much of it religiously motivated. There are also the attacks on LGBTQ+ students and staff.

Women's reproductive rights have also been under attack by the Christian right.

It may not be happening in your church, or in a number of other churches and denominations, Kentish. But is some quarters, it is definitely happening.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2023 10:41AM by summer.

I don't think that is a realistic concern in today's world, even if the religious right were to dominate the political arena. Western societies, even most on the right, have largely abandoned religious fundamentalism and Christianity itself is very divided.

The Christian right is more concerned about declining or non christian values and influences being imposed on them by a increasingly non christian world. There will always be battles over many issues like abortion and LGBT rites that will be decided in the legal/political arena and laws imposed accordingly. A full on theocracy only happens in some radical Islam strongholds and in earl Utah.

Perhaps if the jihadists succeed in conquering the western world this could be a concern.

All depends on which Bible and who interprets it.

Which we all agree on, right?

Which is why we stopped doing that. The history is very clear.

BYU writ large?

I went through the temple. My picture of the CK would be always wearing those stupid outfits and doing temple work all the time. The temple was and is ridiculous.

And then biblical rule??? Oh my. I've dealt with the mormon leaders and just the idea of biblical rule. I want nothing to do with men being my boss and I certainly never want to share a man with other women. I'll stick with the "ex" and he can do all the men he wants. I prefer to take care of dogs and stay away from men.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And then biblical rule??? Oh my. I've dealt with
> the mormon leaders and just the idea of biblical
> rule. I want nothing to do with men being my boss
> and I certainly never want to share a man with
> other women. I'll stick with the "ex" and he can
> do all the men he wants. I prefer to take care of
> dogs and stay away from men.

Assuming you would still be allowed to have some measure of personal and bodily autonomy that is...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2023 06:44AM by anybody.

>> I want nothing to do with men being my boss...

I feel the same way. Every time I see evidence of the patriarchal Abrahamic religions squashing women down, I feel disgust. I wish women would stand up for themselves more. These religions were built by and for men. The entire idea of women going to the CK to be eternal baby-making machines is ridiculous. No woman would ever sign up for that.

+1

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The entire idea of women
> going to the CK to be eternal baby-making machines
> is ridiculous. No woman would ever sign up for
> that.

That's because Mormon theology is just an expression of Joseph Smith's sex and power fantasies.

"Women who stand up for themselves
aren't lying down, and that's just
not what heaven is all about!"

          --Anonymous, for reasons
             involving survival of his
             reproductive organs

Theocracy = death.
You will be executed for anything.

Burn the witches!!

Don't even think about it, EOD.