I'm very well set financially, but how could anyone professing to be a Christian live in such decadence.

Certainly there must be many Utahan's claiming to be followers of Christ making serious bucks gorging on metastasized real estate development/exploitation and/or American's addiction to consumer electronics. It seems to me that this can not go on, something is going to give, there is going to be a collapse, not just in Utah, but within the U.S.

Check out this neighborhood: 14248 South 1750 East, Draper, Utah

Ask Mr. Romney.

I was looking at the map, and thinking, that can't be all that far from the Jordan River temple. And it's not. Plus, it's not that far from the Oquirrh Mountain temple, either. Temple on top of temple on top of temple.

That's a whole lot of house. Where I live, once you get up to that price point, a house can be hard to unload. Must be a lot of money in that neighborhood.

How close are they to the gravel pit at Point of the Mountain?

I've seen those kind of neighborhoods everywhere is the US. IMHO, it's a waste of money but to each his own.

prosperity gospel

Too much house!
here's a video listing. Who needs this much house?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB-NDaXhGoM

I like how they kept showing the view of the temple, like that was a plus.
That limits who might be interested, since not everyone enjoys having an eyesore to stare at right out of their multimillion house window.

I had a carpet cleaning business for 18 years. No matter how big the house, a family lived in just a small portion of it. How did I know?

Wear patterns and dirty carpets don’t lie.

This sort of conspicuous consumption really turned me off about Mormon culture. So I guess I could say it had a good effect on me.

Nudged me towards a life of spiritual and intellectual richness instead.

Never looked back.

I see a big house like that and wonder how much it would cost to furnish it.

How is the private exercise of private property such a concern for us?

People take note of such things. Where I live, some people have what we call "McMansions." They are overly large houses on relatively small plots of land. Would you buy a large, expensive house only to look directly into your neighbor's windows?

And beyond that, it's yet another example of the housing developments that often go along with a new temple. Some builder with inside ties to the church, or even the church itself, made a bundle of money on that development.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2023 02:15PM by summer.

They don't appeal to me, but that's true of a lot of popular things. But I don't see the value or point in denigration just because I disagree.

Show concrete harms that aren't similarly true of other houses. I can get on board with criticizing disproportionate creation of greenhouse gases harming the public. The wealthy bear a pollution burden they need to recognize.

But it's too big, its' grotesque. There is no scale for discussion beyond personal taste.

I grew up in Olympus Cove, the ostentatious Draper for the 1960s and 70s. My parent's house was from the 1950s there and much more modest. But in the end, the kids I went to school with weren't any different from me even though their houses were.

dogbloggernli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I can get on board with criticizing
> disproportionate creation of greenhouse gases
> harming the public. The wealthy bear a pollution
> burden they need to recognize.
>
> But it's too big, its' grotesque. There is no
> scale for discussion beyond personal taste.

That's the point of "too much house" In today's environment, unless a house like this is run completely on solar and wind, it's criminal to build something like this in quite extreme temperatures, and heat and cool so much square footage, where only a quarter of which is lived in.

If people need to build something that represents grandiosity, they should build a folly or two on to a house so they have grand scale without having to heat/cool it.

As for the house's style, it's not my style, but even if it were, I'd get little satisfaction out of living there on a zero lot line property where I'd be able to hear my neighbor's kid screaming and the next neighbor's kid practicing piano. I'd rather have less house and more land

-Would you buy a large, expensive house only to look directly into your neighbor's windows?

Good point. I want privacy at the end of the day.

Yes, it has a view but it looks over so much development. Might as well be overlooking public storage buildings or amazon distribution warehouses.

It‘s a reflection of the values of a society. If you want to understand society, taking note of such things is important.

Some people base their existence on getting and maintaining homes like that. Important fact to note.

I live close to there. Those homes, believe it or not, were mostly built during the Great Recession. You could buy them for 350-500K, a price of less than a new home in SL and Utah County today. The homes were there before the temple. I don't get it, but in Utah, your property value goes up when they build a Home Depot sized, multi-story, perpetually lit up every night, religious monstrosity on your block.

That house went through 2 bankruptcies of the owner and the builder. It sat, 1/3 finished, with nothing but the framing, sheeting and half a roof for 18 months. The guy that bought it got it cheap, less than 800K finished.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2023 02:21PM by stillanon.

I didn't find the interior to be enthralling by any means. Sometimes you visit places and become dazzled.

I'm not a fancy person, but it lacked grandeur.

Looking at the doors, the wood doors look like the same style that are being installed at all church buildings (chapels and temples).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2023 03:04PM by messygoop.

I don't get the "spires". I've never seen them on homes and buildings any other place in the US but Utah. Anyone know of a mormon connection?

I agree about everything other than the bath/shower rooms. I would happily take that huge shower and the copper soaking tub

By world standards most American homes are ostentatious. Everything is relative.

You don't like the little onion domes on the spires? I thought they gave the house a bit of European class.

They are trying to impress the Q-15 with their righteousness. I am not kidding.

Well. I am disappointed with that walk thorough. They didn't show the laundry room. That was the one thing I wanted to see. The rest of it, meh. It would be like living in a hotel and you would have to have a lot of people to clean it. I like my privacy.

Reminiscent of the just because we can "Gilded Age"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjpYzFtxfjU

I remember driving through a neighborhood south of Provo in the early 2000s. The McMansions were hideous. Cookie cutter homes filled with newlyweds and young families.

On of my co-workers bought one. On the outside, it looked amazing. I was a bit envious. He had got a great deal, or so it seemed. I assumed the prices were cheaper because of the location.

A few years later, he told me that the builder was being sued. Many people were experiencing cracks, leaks, and other issues. They were much more prevalent in this neighborhood than in other neighborhoods. It seems they had cut a LOT of corners.

But the thing that stuck out was the obsession with buying a house that so many people had. I wonder how many of them ended up underwater in their homes.

I'm surprised it doesn't have a drawbridge and a moat!

Someone please explain the bathtub setup in the video at 1:48. Why would a bathtub be at the top of 4 potentially slippery steps? It doesn't look like there's enough room for a person to stand around the bathtub so the bather will somehow have to climb out of the tub by lowering their foot to the first step. There's nothing to grab onto until descending the stairs, with a hand railing only on one side. It looks like an accident waiting to happen.

The wooden decoration on the fireplace looks like the organ pipes in the old Tabernacle.

Like my dad used to say, "you can only be in one room at a time", so I don't what the point of this place is, except to say "I'm the top dog here, and you'll never forget it."

I just looked at the video. Yes, that house is ridiculous, even b6 ostentation standards. I know of a similar, though slightly small home in Olympus Cove. It has turrets too, including a small one that looks like it would hold just one person. Maybe it is off a chikd’s bedroom,

Anyway, it is referred to as “the Rapunzel house”. It has been on the market for most of the last ten years. I’ve seen prices between $2 million to $5 million. I think it has been occupied a time or two, and those might have been leases, but it is apparently very difficult to sell.

Olympus Cove is a generally pricey fifty year old neighborhood right up against Mount Olympus, east-central Salt Lake Valley

LOL- after I looked at the photo and rotated around for the street. I think the words are architectural excrescence.

Meanwhile, there are immigrant families in my community living with 12 adults and 8 children in a two-bedroom mobile home (extremely cold in winter due to the dead airspace underneath).

A news article showed no furniture, just mattresses standing on end up against a living room wall while little children played during the daytime.

The nearly 8000 square feet in Draper makes far more sense for 20 occupants. Not a small handful.

Yes, it's a hotel not a home.

Please remember that the costs for buildings is someone else's wages & materials.

I might be misunderstanding your comment. Are you saying that we should appreciate houses like that because it added to the economy via workers and supply vendors? Because if so...

It would still be someone's wages and materials if it was two smaller houses. The only person whose wages depend on a house that big and ornate is the architect, and maybe not even them if the developer already has that model in their repertoire, stamping them out all over the country. There's a slowdown in new home builds, but only due to the pandemic, lingering supply chain issues and worker shortage.

a) I don't think ppl in Mega-Houses choose to live in ticky-tack look alike houses.

b) the quality that goes into a home like WMR buys/lives in far surpasses an ordinary spec house.

As a former electrical contractor, I have come to appreciate the degree of training & skills that go into construction as I didn't before I took up that occupation.

Did you know it takes about 4 yrs to become a journeyman electrician?

Are you aware of the safety & security upgrades that the mega-rich incorporate?

Yes and yes, but if they're not building this house, they'd be building other ones. Likely ones in appropriate areas where they don't dwarf and aren't in keeping with the style of the rest of the homes in the development.

And yes, those mega homes are ticky tack lookalikes in developments alllll over the country. The furnishings, fittings and interior design (interior architecture) vary, but there's even houses exactly like this one in my general area, literally across the country. That's kind of part of the grotesqueness, it's not even really custom. If you do a google image search, you'll find nearly the same exact house in provo, littleton colorado, cherry hills nj, and more places than I bothered clicking on.

What does the length of time to become a journeyman electrician have to do with this house? Are you saying that ONLY houses like this one employ the skills of a journeyman electrician? I'm sure the large but not ostentatious houses in the neighborhood (if you scroll around street view) also employed journeymen electricians.

The super rich spec high end safety and security upgrades no matter where the house is, or whether it's tacky and inappropriate for the community or not. Though most super rich do not build monstrosities in near zero lot line communities.

The controlling factor regarding home construction is:

location, location, location.

I think (not sure, te he) my point about construction workers is that they've been the object of much derision and disrespect ( I know some or most of the 'jokes', thank you;

isn't it popular to exaggerate problems, drywall cracks, leaking roofs, bad plumbing & electrical, etc., and the workers who created them?

approximately 2,000 sq ft is one rough guidepost of how much quality a builder puts into the final product, I've seen that a few times; 2k & under are often if not mostly 'spec homes', built before sold; Remember, most of those homes are low-bid projects.

Lots of variables, but the workers earn their pay ~ 95% of the time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2023 08:45PM by GNPE.

i wouldn't know about any of that, maybe not everyone is as jaded by default as you suspect? My cousins are builders, contractors and roofers, and they're all moral, upstanding people who treat their employees right, and they, in turn, do good jobs.

Whether someone is a day laborer or a foreman, people either have integrity and pride in their work, or they don't. Same with coders, admins, teachers, lawyers, doctors and every other job you can think of.

For my part, I've worked in architectural and interior design procurement, and some firms are fine with buying shoddy materials, but that's on them. Its not the workers' fault that they're given crap materials to work with. (I was lucky to work on projects like 5 star hotels in dubai rather than the group that worked on model homes so I didn't see as much "design feel" replacement for designer spec'd items, but I know it happens).

Shoddy builds are like the old saying about fish stinking from the heads down. The issues start from the design and spec, the workers make do with what they're given.

Don't be so quick to assume everyone is so disparaging of the trades. I may be a raging liberal but I'm I'm pro-trade, pro-apprenticeship/technical education hybrid training and believe they should be promoted alongside college bound programs with the same level of enthusiasm and merit.

Most teachers feel the same way about the trades. We realize that the trades are a great option for many students. My understanding is that within the public school system, it can be difficult to find teachers for the vocational high schools, though, because tradespeople can often earn more out in the field than they can teaching.

I meant post-high school trades paths. (I honestly don't know the answer to providing good trade education for high schoolers) Students should be well informed about trade apprenticeships (often sponsored by unions, like the welder's union, etc.), legitimate trade schools and what paths people can take in the trades.

Mostly, the people who need to be won over is the parents. My parents would have had a fit if I wanted to go into a trade program/trade school instead of college. Wasn't an issue for me, I'm more of a humanities type and I'm useless with my hands and can barely assemble IKEA furniture. Understanding the mechanics of an auto assembly line or mapping out where electrical cables need to go in new builds would be impossible for me.

However, I think of people like my sister's husband who is not cut out for office work, and is perpetually unemployed. He has a useless degree in theater stage craft, he's a fantastic woodworker and would probably have a thriving career in woodwork/custom cabinetry of some variety, or even just a cabinetry installer. When he was fired from his 7th job in one year, I asked my sister why he didn't just do what he was good at. My sister replied that she wouldn't have a blue collar husband. Now my sister is a sociopath, but that sort of mentality is not uncommon. That needs to change.

>>> I may be a raging liberal but I'm I'm pro-trade, pro-apprenticeship/technical education hybrid training and believe they should be promoted alongside college bound programs with the same level of enthusiasm and merit.

Amen to that. The trades are important. We depend on them and need competent smart people to fill those roles.

> I may be a raging
> liberal but I'm I'm pro-trade,
> pro-apprenticeship/technical education hybrid
> training and believe they should be promoted
> alongside college bound programs with the same
> level of enthusiasm and merit.

Agreed--with two caveats. First, there should be a basic level of competence in math, English, science, civics, etc., that all young people achieve irrespective of where they go for further education/careers.

Second, it would be a mistake to go as far as the UK has done. In that country kids must decide in the first year or two of high school whether they are going the "A level" route towards university or the "O level" path towards the trades. (I should be more precise. The A/O nomenclature was ditched in the 1980s or 1990s but the overall structure remains the same.) In my view the danger is that students are compelled to make decisions with life-long consequences before they even know themselves.

There should be sufficient flexibility that children can switch tracks as long as possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2023 08:32PM by Lot's Wife.

> There should be sufficient
> flexibility that children
> can switch tracks as long
> as possible.


How much longer do I have?

You, Jesus, have a higher obligation to fulfill: object lesson.

When I say "promoted" I mostly mean "not looked down on or considered disappointing to parents and peers" A lot of parents won't accept anything other than a college education.

As far as the UK system goes, I have a different perspective. Schooling is compulsory till 18, but students can leave the educational (college bound, GCSE) path at 16 and enroll in trade school or a trade apprenticeship/school hybrid program. Many of the students who would chose that might be the ones considered "at risk" in the US. If someone's going to drop out of high school because they don't want to (or can't) write papers or learn about economics or world literature, better there be an established, acceptable catch-all where money isn't an object in learning a trade or a skill (cosmetology, medical coding, etc.) to set them up for a successful career.

I personally appreciated and enjoyed a variety of electives in HS and went on to get a Liberal Arts degree at a university. If I could do it again, I'd still do it the same way. But not everyone is the same. Some people know at 15 that they want to be a beautician or that they never want to work in an office, they want to work with their hands.

My ex is a plastics engineer from England, and he went into a four-year apprenticeship/school program at 16. He hated reading had no interest in scholarly things, he did learn a lot about math and physics through his program, which was on-par with an AS degree. He would have otherwise dropped out of school completely.

This path isn't great for well-rounded education, but neither is dropping out with no skill or sense of accomplishment, and working in minimum wage jobs for life.

I think we are basically in agreement.

My issue with the UK program is that it perpetuates the class system. If you are a working-class kid and your parents have working-class expectations, the odds are high that you will find yourself channeled into the trades without ever having made a conscious choice.

The tyranny of expectations is present in the US and other countries as well, naturally, but in the UK those expectations are societally and educationally reinforced. The result is a loss for students from underprivileged backgrounds but also for the country as a whole inasmuch as prematurely shunting children into the wrong courses prevents a significant number of them from reaching their full potential (however that is defined).

I mean, if I'd had to choose when I was sixteen I'd probably have ended up a professional accordion player like Mr. Jesus rather than becoming the renowned preschool teacher I am now. My point is simply that while all careers should be respected, nothing is more important than the chance for the young person to decide which respected career she wants to pursue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2023 08:33PM by Lot's Wife.

Remember when some resident up on the hill had built a tennis court, and some others found it ugly and wanted it torn up? In the Trib photo, that temple in the background was the real eyesore. The church's architect needs to be replaced.

I'm pretty sure that's the same house that's listed as an airbnb. The area available to rent is to the left of the drive through area. And if I remember correctly, the airbnb post does not show any pictures of the temple.

Capitalism isn't always bright & shiny, but in the final analysis it serves more people better than any other system.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Capitalism isn't always bright & shiny, but in
> the final analysis it serves more people better
> than any other system.

Depends who you ask, and whether we gave true capitalism is debatable

I do wish people would read Wealth of Nations so they know what a capitalist system looks like.

What it looks like before it eats itself.

My main complaint is that, although I probably live in greater abundance than most people on Earth, these homes are so far beyond what a professed Christian should be consuming it's pathetic.

Did my eyes deceive me or was there a clothes chute built into a newel post? I grew up in a house with one and loved it, but where I live now they are against code in new construction, supposedly due to fire risk.

I think clothes/laundry chutes have to be a straight drop or the clothes will get stuck. Perhaps it is a slide.

olders prefer homes with only one floor, this is usually possible only in mid-or-above income neighborhoods due to zoning & other regulations & developer decisions as to lot sizes created when land is divided into lots.

where I lived in Carnation, 5 acres was the mandated lot size, why would anyone build a multi-story house there?

Whoever dies with the most square feet wins.

My feet are not, and never will be, square.