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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 07:08PM

I watched the memorial service for Rosalynn Carter earlier today. It was quiet and understated - especially in view of her former role as first lady and with the current president and a former president and the first lady and several former first ladies in attendance as well as many others filling the pews, including a large and loving family. The musical selections were lovely and all the talks, by family and friends and others - such as Judy Woodruff (journalist) were short but powerful and loving tributes to a woman who had lived a long life and accomplished many goals and endeared herself to her family and friends all over the world.

At one point the pastor said that Rosalynn is in heaven, reflecting the mainstream Christian view that instantly upon death they will wake up in heaven. It certainly gives a lot of comfort to loved ones grieving their loss here on earth and for many it alleviates their pain to believe that.

A comment EOD wrote on another thread made me think of the Mormon teaching about the three levels of heaven - a strange idea for mainstream Christians. For Mormons, not only do you have to meet certain requirements to get to heaven but you have to try and ensure you get past the first two levels (telestial & terrestrial) to find a place in the celestial kingdom.

It all sounds very strange to non-mo ears.

I am terribly claustrophobic as well as intolerant of heights. It's embarrassing to admit that staying in a terrestrial kingdom (which I took to mean feet on solid ground) sounded OK to me. I don't want to be sitting on a star way up in the sky if that's how that works. And no close, tight spaces thankyouverymuch.

But I do have to admit, the way they explain it, about the sun, the moon and the stars - that's nicer than anything else I encountered within Mormonism - poetic even - telestial being the stars, terrestrial being the moon, celestial being the sun.

I also don't like too much heat. So my best bet would be terrestrial - the moon being closer to the earth than the stars and not hot like the sun.

I found the Mormon heavens all quite confusing, tbh, and kind of boring except for the tiny flash of poetry with the sun, the moon and the stars.

It's pleasant to think that the glory that is you will carry on elsewhere once you kick the bucket down here on earth. But other times it makes me feel quite tired. I hope they give timeouts in heaven where you can just kick back and relax. Always assuming (as many do) that we'd for sure be heading to the place for good folks.

My best friend's husband passed away last year. There's no doubt she derived much comfort, and quickly, from the thought of him roaming around up in the heavens "in the twinkling of an eye".

Just as I felt with the Carter family in today's service. It must certainly be comforting to feel such assurance about a pleasant afterlife for the departed and the thought that you will all be reunited one day.

For me, quite often I feel like it would be nice to just rest awhile. As long as it's somewhere not too hot. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2023 07:16PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 07:36PM

Because it would remind me that my kids are waiting for me and my ex. I think we would be able to resolve our differences once and for all. Of course she believes that I am going to hell, so there is that.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 07:52PM

lousyleper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because it would remind me that my kids are
> waiting for me and my ex. I think we would be
> able to resolve our differences once and for all.
> Of course she believes that I am going to hell, so
> there is that.

I found it quite lovely, LL, but then I'm of the Christian persuasion. I understand that others may have preferred something secular. But it was quiet and dignified and respectful and they played lovely hymns (which I know wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea but the choirs were wonderful and they happened to sing some of my favourite hymns). There was a lot of easy and appreciative laughter so that made it bearable, I hope, for the family. It also helps to think about what a lot of years both Carters have had and, of course, this day was inevitable.

I'm so sorry about your children, LL, and all your struggles that you've shared here. Thanks for trusting us. I hope it is helpful for you to read a lot of what people share here.

Maybe you could find the service for Mrs. Carter or parts of it online at some point? It was quiet and peaceful I thought, which can be soothing and restorative for anyone who watches it.

I find I don't worry about what happens after death - I mean, what can I do about it? I try to be a decent person in this lifetime just because it's better than the alternative. And maybe that's all there is. And that's fine. I'll go with the flow. (What other choice is there?).

And remember - we all make mistakes. And we can only do what we can do, as I tell myself when I start feeling like I should have done this or that but didn't and then berating myself for it. Life is a learn-as-you-go proposition. Mostly all I aim for is not to keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Take care. Be kind to yourself.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 08:28PM

I begin to wonder if I'm just delaying my grieving. It seems like it. I miss the boys yes, but I seem to not have grieved their loss.

I don't hate my ex. In fact it's quite the opposite. I've always loved her regardless of our incompatibility. When our first died, I was sad. I ended up getting leukemia too.??

Our son had AML. I ended up having ALL in 2015. He's the one year old that I picked up and took to the couch, and fell asleep

When I came to get my stuff, he raised his hands, and said my magic name. Dada! My ex told me not to touch him, to get my stuff, and leave.

I feel I can't grieve because that was a moment froze in time, the last time I would ever see any of my boys again.

My ex was so angry, that I was never allowed at any of their funerals. The only way I could go was with the police there. She thought I was going to kill her.

So I didn't go. To respect her wishes. I haven't been to their graves because of the guilt from all the fights.

I feel like I was exiled. I still feel that way. I mean I forgive her...I begin to wonder if she will... Someday.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 11:32PM

I heard that Jimmy had to get a new suit. Apparently he's lost a lot of weight from his illness.

In terms of who is going to heaven, the mainstream Christians can be funny in that regard. During the member's lifetime, the church insists that you be baptized and without sin in order to go to heaven. Catholics even have a special place, purgatory, that serves as a heavenly waiting room where sins can be worked out. But after you die, everyone assumes that you are in heaven. Mainstream funerals and memorial services can indeed be very comforting in that regard. It's like everyone's memory (including that of the priest or minister) gets wiped about official church doctrine.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 10:30PM

...the first family funeral I attended was for my mom's youngest sister's husband who died in a car accident when he rolled his car over the rails on Interstate 10. During the service, his minister commented that because he didn't preach that everybody was going to Heaven in his regular sermons, he wasn't going to say that Michael was going to Heaven now. He glossed over this position by then saying that he believed that God hears the prayers of the remaining family members and may just let Michael in for that. None of the funeral services I attended since, whether they were Catholic or Protestant, had ministers/priests who went as far towards family alienation as this one did.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 28, 2023 11:43PM

I have to think of it (going to heaven) as an effort to comfort the living who are there at the funeral. It's understandable that everyone wishes for an afterlife in the clouds where everyone can meet again.

It's not like they can say she is now in the process of decomposing to be permanent dust (like I believe). That's not a big seller in funeral talks. ;-)

She was a good person who genuinely tried to do good and live her religion as she believed it should be. They were truly an exemplary couple. I never thought very much of them when he was POTUS. It was how they lived their lives after leaving office that gained my admiration for them as great people.

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Posted by: ciena ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 12:17AM

Not bad lousyleper, the palatable loss doesn't really fit that well and maybe that is precisely where heaven comes in to th3 picture.

I will definitely feel like my closest friends and relatives never died, even though their lifetimes have completely expired.

That is a whole nother (not a word, ha) take I guess, on being b8gger than life.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 12:22PM

I just wish that everything will be OK in another life. In heaven I believe the mortal coil will be done, and there will be eternal rest, and there is no worshipful singing.

I listen to assorted music, but my fav is Alice in Chain's 'No Excuses'. I can imagine God rockin out to that with bass headphones!

I just want to have my kids give me hugs as kids. Not the stupidity of 'everyone' being 23, or whatever age Smith said we'd be. Of course Smith said that... he wanted all the women to be 23.

Maybe someday in heaven, my ex will get a stern talking to by God, That I was ill. Very ill, and that I needed help, instead of her believing that it doesn't exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2023 12:23PM by lousyleper.

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Posted by: hrp ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 02:04PM

My view of death is summarized in the long poem "Thanatopsis" (meaning, in Greek, 'view of death') by William Cullen Bryant. Some excerpts:

Yet a few days, and thee
The all-beholding sun shall see no more
In all his course; nor yet in the cold ground,
Where thy pale form was laid, with many tears,
Nor in the embrace of ocean, shall exist
Thy image. Earth, that nourished thee, shall claim
Thy growth, to be resolved to earth again,
And, lost each human trace, surrendering up
Thine individual being, shalt thou go
To mix for ever with the elements,
To be a brother to the insensible rock
And to the sluggish clod, which the rude swain
Turns with his share, and treads upon. The oak
Shall send his roots abroad, and pierce thy mould...

...As the long train
Of ages glide away, the sons of men,
The youth in life’s green spring, and he who goes
In the full strength of years, matron and maid,
The speechless babe, and the gray-headed man—
Shall one by one be gathered to thy side,
By those, who in their turn shall follow them.
....

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 02:19PM


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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 02:22PM

Thank you for that! I think that poem and Moby's song We Are All Made of Stars would be my picks for a memorial.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 03:31PM


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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 02:30PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2023 04:45PM by lousyleper.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 08:30PM

A poll I read suggested 73% of Americans believed in heaven. No definition in particular of what it is.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 08:40PM

Kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A poll I read suggested 73% of Americans believed
> in heaven. No definition in particular of what it
> is.

We always think of Americans being more religious than Canadians in general.

Quick look-up states that "almost 6 in 10 Canadians (58%) believe that there is a heaven".

Those pesky Brits: Only "48% of Britons agree."

Interestingly:

"However, respondents from both countries are less likely to believe in hell -- only 42% of Canadians and 32% of Britons say they believe."


Is that like having your cake and eating it too?

I'll take heaven please.

And what is this hell of which you speak? :P

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: November 29, 2023 10:04PM

This movie brought me to tears when it first came out. So many people believe that heaven is what it is in the movie. Hell was the same, weeping, wailing. Gnashing of teeth.

But if one can cross the divide between heaven and hell, to save a loved one, more power to them!

I believe heaven is what I saw on the screen. No heartache, or anything. I have faith that it will be like that. No endless celestial sex or anything. Just peace,, and what we can create in our imaginations.

I also believe that a husband can cross, and find his wife. Sure, But the saving of your wife from hell, takes courage, takes balls. Same for wives that are willing to sacrifice just as much. That is true love to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2023 10:09PM by lousyleper.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 10, 2023 10:28PM

I'm not religious, and I believe in an afterlife.

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Posted by: kantgomo ( )
Date: December 10, 2023 10:01PM

“Just as I felt with the Carter family in today's service. It must certainly be comforting to feel such assurance about a pleasant afterlife for the departed and the thought that you will all be reunited one day.“

It is. There is part of me that looks forward to it. I also look forward to that rest you spoke of.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: December 10, 2023 11:19PM

If my ex ended in hell, I know I would do everything I could to get her out. She is the love of my life. Even with all the quirks.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: December 11, 2023 01:21AM

Growing up in the cult but admittedly not paying attention to much of what was preached or taught, I did take note of the 3 degrees of heaven and my inferiority complex made me certain I wasn't headed for the CK. Thar was before I was ordained a deacon and really started to doubt everything.

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