Too bad I didn't stumble before plunging into the Mo tank years ago, ha.

I was surprised to come face to face with my baptism photos while clearing out some old boxes last night. There are also scads of missionary photos in there. Most of them I remember not at all. Maybe the mishies would like to have the record of themselves with their shiny faces and white shirts, beaming as they spread the word (although I knew some who definitely were not enjoying their mission - who can blame them - it's boredom personified 24/7 while two years trudge by, when being engaged in any other activity at all on the face of the earth would be far more productive not to mention at least basically interesting).

I remember the elder who baptized me (but only after I saw the pictures). I remember the white dress - yes, it was lovely, as some people said. But mostly I recall the tremendously negative experience it was at the time as well as for all the months later while I struggled to stay positive, and in the monotonous repetitive church meetings, because I thought I had to stick with it as I had made promises. When I realized I hadn't really understood what it was they called the promises that was sufficient to free myself from the obligation I felt to stay. Thankfully.

I have had way more fun here with exmos than I ever did with mos. I know they would say it isn't about fun and you made a promise and yada yada but when I think of the stultifying boredom of the endless dreary meetings and the mystifying teachings in the book and the ancient out-of-touch so-called prophets and the unqualified church leaders who intensified the misery, it's not too hard to say bah humbug and I don't care.

So I was the dolt who joined the Mormon Church and all I've got to show for it is a boxful of photographs of people I don't remember, even the elders I ate meals with and felt friendly towards at the time.

The useless angry bishop present for the dunking broke my heart for a time (by being all kinds of an idiot that I don't even want to recall or relate at this point) but really he did me a favour because although I felt obligated to stick due to the "promises" (that I didn't comprehend - my bad) it was difficult to overcome the hurt and disappointment and the absolute misery that was my Mormon interlude.

So there's a good few dozens of photos headed for the shredder, my baptism ones among them. What a waste. In every sense, such as two wasted years of life for every elder or sister immortalized in the pictures. My hair did look nice though. And the pretty long white dress. The best part is the memory of a sweet elderly gentleman who told me in the hallway before the service started "You look so beautiful". (He must have mislaid his specs). Or maybe that was what he was programmed to see. I regretted the thought later, in the midst of the misery that was Mormonism for me, that I had unwittingly bolstered his testimony. And it was based on a lie. All of it.

A huge horrible lie. In every sense.

Because first, Joseph. Next, BY. And ever after young Mormons wasting two years spouting the church's line and making irrational promises to uninformed folks that aren't going to come true.

For what?

And besides - did I mention? - it's so utterly awfully boring.

It's been way more fun being here at RfM than it ever was for a single instant being there in the most perfect church or is it most perfect book - whatever - they need to check the definition of perfect.

Not that fun is the be all/end all but it helps.

I remember a good few of the mishies and wish them well but please excuse me while I go and shred a bunch of good-for-nothing coloured glossy paper immortalizing faces I don't even recall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2023 06:20PM by Nightingale.

I have a picture in my mind. I have remembered so few things from the age of 8, but I remember this one vividly.

Sitting on the 1st floor of a two story church. It was January of 1967, and back then buildings were poorly insulated if at all. I was sitting on the front row on a metal chair with my father next to me. In the baptism clothes, no shoes, no socks, no coat, just that one piece jumper. It was cold, the floor was that old style tile that you would glue down on concrete. It was Saturday, late afternoon and the speaker was yammering on about accountability and now we were going to be washed clean.

I sat there wishing he would shut up and get on with it, I was cold I and wanted this thing to end, so I could get back to wearing something more than a thin cotton jump suit. Besides that I don't remember much more.

But I can attest to the boring meeting, rarely did a Sunday go by over the years that I was not bored to death. A 1960 to 70 era Fast and Testimony meeting gave new meaning to pure hell for a 8 year old through his teens. And when that one member stood up with 5 minutes left that never shut up and went on for 30 minutes or more.......inside you were screaming noooooooo!!!

I cannot imagine attending for one's entire childhood, and beyond.

I was bored out of my mind too and I would ask myself what am I missing when others were gushing about these amazing meetings.

If I had gone on my own, without the intervention of friends who were Mormon I'm positive I would have left early and never returned.

I hate to sound like a broken record or to be too critical but the meetings were beyond boring and so unbearably repetitious.

And members would say that if you weren't getting anything out of it the problem was with you, not the church.

It's too bad that I ever believed that for one NY minute.

It's easy, I found, to let others convince you of pretty much anything if you don't always ask questions and think carefully about the more crucial choices.

I was terribly embarrassed about how disappointing the baptism was and how everybody knew something was wrong but they didn't know what. It's ridiculous I know but I still feel loathe to explain the details (although I did so at some point when I first came to RfM). The bishop was just a complete and total jerk and things went downhill from there. He was a nasty man, who I had never met before, who ruined the evening for everyone. And to see and hear him yelling at my friend who was baptizing me was completely shocking. So much so that nobody questioned or confronted him - we just carried on with the program like zombies.

I know you can't judge a religion by one leader but he most definitely must have driven more people away than just me. I didn't leave right away - I struggled to overlook it and carry on but things never got any better within the Mormon Church as far as I was concerned. He hadn't quite dealt a death blow to my Mormon interlude but he sure is an enduring memory of a very tough evening and a miserable bunch of months afterwards before I finally took the leap to get out. Interestingly, or not, perhaps predictably for sure, none of the Mormons I met, members or missionaries, reached out when I left. (Not that I'm complaining - once I was gone I was gone). But I figured they either thought I was a lost cause anyway or they actually understood that he had dealt a death blow to any minuscule 'testimony' I may have had.

One of the creepiest aspects in my experience is how the missionaries appeared to be completely used to bishops and other members completely screwing up. Like, it's just another day at the office for them.

I would love to know that some of the mishies I knew actually got out. Most of them were from Utah though so maybe it's harder for them to leave? Like, when your entire existence is steeped in Mormonism it would be difficult, I imagine, to see past that to a different world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2023 08:50PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale, I've always appreciated you point of view as an adult convert. I like to think that the sweet, elderly gentleman was being kind to you. And I'm sure that indeed, you did look beautiful. The Mormon church was never for a moment deserving of your sweet sincerity. Certain people manage to rise above the rot that is the corporate church.

I bet she looked beautiful too. I would love to see a pic but she is so shy :)

You guys are making me blush. No really - he was elderly and the lighting was poor, haha.

summer - I do think there are many fine people there. The corporate church doesn't deserve them.

I'm so glad you are out of the Insanity that is the LDS Church.

I bet you are beautiful

We see it here all the time :-)

I just saw your post today SM - what a lovely comment - you've made my day. Thank you so much.

I just finished a novel set in Paris about women working in the Louvre during the war. (I usually avoid that type of story - can't stand war stuff - but this was unputdownable after just a quick glance at page 1 - Canadian author too - yay).

But every time I hear about Paris now I think of "Tom in Paris", lol.

Of course, there's the song Gay Paree too and even a flower of the same name:

https://beyondthehouse.ca/products/peony-gay-paree


Have yourself a lovely weekend over there in Paree, T-i-P.

...soaking wet?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...soaking wet?

Not this time.

No more dunking pools for me.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...soaking wet?

These pix were pre-dunking.

Post-dunking I was outta there.

Miserable experience. I'm amazed I ever went back but I was trying to keep my promises - even though I had zero clue what they actually were - my bad.

The missionaries tried their best to keep me in but as they moved on, so did I. Eventually. What took me so long still amazes me. Pure misery - thy name is Mormonism.

Remember that all that made you into the person you are now.

I look in my box of church remembrances and feel everything from anger to wistfulness. I missed out on so much of life that was happening outside the church. However, a lot of good things happened too. It is what it is. I didn't know until I knew.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember that all that made you into the person
> you are now.

Yes, dagny. Without that I would never have been on RfM and it's been a blast. Way more fun than the bloody Mormon church on its best day.


> I look in my box of church remembrances and feel
> everything from anger to wistfulness. I missed out
> on so much of life that was happening outside the
> church. However, a lot of good things happened
> too. It is what it is. I didn't know until I knew.

I was so fortunate that I didn't grow up in it. I could have done without the recurring negative experiences and the loss of a dear friendship but other than the acute embarrassment of the baptism debacle (where the bishop was a total ass - please excuse my French) I wasn't irreparably harmed. In fact, the experience helped me to gain more insight in the end.

Yes, it is what it is. And if not that, then it would be something else. Because who gets through life unscathed by at least a few cuts and bruises.

What is SO amazing is to discover (via RfM) who and what people can be once they shed their Mormon life. Just think of all that untapped potential within its ranks. Now *that* is sad. An absolute waste of time and talent.

No apologies needed from me, Nightingale An ass is akin to donkey right.

What about Nightingale's ass?

...asking for a friend...

Kentish, I do not understand your comment. Uhhhh what?

Just saw this Susan I/S. An ass is a member of the horse family: smaller with big ears and loud braying sound. When referring to the specific piece of human anatomy Brits pronounce the word with an r as the second letter and and with only one s. Even a genteel person such as Nightingale would know this.

In his famnous quote:"The law is an ass" would have Oscar Wilde likening the law to a donkey or specifically its cousin the braying ass.

You have a beautiful soul, NG!

I have no record of my baptism or anything. My mom kept all of it in my baby book, even though I was 18 when I joined. After the rite, the mishies and all the leadership wanted to hear y testimony. It was standard. Party line.

So, I'm glad you got out.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2023 08:21PM by lousyleper.

Hey y'all: I thought we'd quit believing in fairy tales.

Or at least we're more discerning with the ones we treasure now.

To keep it real: Think of me as Cinderella before the fairy godmother showed up.

Or something like that.

Otherwise, I promise you, reality bites. :P

Focus more on the kind elderly gentleman in the hallway who was the highlight of my baptism experience.

Because it was all downhill from there. Absolutely.

I used to be shy and quiet and didn't like being the centre of attention. I was the only one getting baptized that night and it seemed like there were a thousand people in the chapel, most of whom I didn't even know. Maybe they hadn't had a convert baptism for a long time so it was a spectacle? Or they were craving something "spiritual".

I've toughened up a bit since then.

It certainly taught me to look before I leap from then until now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2023 08:31PM by Nightingale.

lousyleper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have a beautiful soul, NG!

Very kind of you to say LL.

But don't forget - this is the internet. We can be whatever we want to be. :)

Maybe I'm the wicked witch of the west IRL.

Or somewhere in between...

You the Wicked Witch NG? Nah. I would say LL has you pegged but then you would smack me :P

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You the Wicked Witch NG? Nah. I would say LL has
> you pegged but then you would smack me :P


https://www.freepik.com/premium-vector/illustration-hand-clenched-cartoon-pop-art-illustration_13713671.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2023 08:55PM by Nightingale.

LOL, you are such a toughie :P

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL, you are such a toughie :P

Only on the internet you'll be shocked to know.

Are you sure? Inquiring minds want to know!

at the age I was baptized a few months ago. It slipped out of a photo album or something. I don't remember a lot about my baptism. I didn't like the whole thing. Back then they didn't do these big parties, but my mom did have my dad's family over for dinner. I hate being the center of attention and especially as an 8-year-old.

The thing that stands is having all those men with their hands on my head and they were so heavy that I slid down in my chair some. I watched the people while I was getting confirmed. Had my eyes open during the whole prayer. Just get me out of there.

My baptism picture is quite funny I think.

I don't want to be negative or cynical, but I found out the hard way about what the church is all about.

First, Mormonism is all about the present moment. It's not about recalling or reminiscing about previous achievements or memories.

Having said that, I seriously doubt that most of the missionaries you (NG) connected with really give a darn about seeing or receiving a copy of your baptismal/missionary photos.

Why? Because they have moved on. (I hope that your feelings aren't crushed) They served their missions and checked off that box of being a good Mormon for the church.

This was my experience as a missionary. I had my cheap camera (plastic lens = blurry mess with camera strap and fingers in every photo) to take those group photos. I was THAT elder if you asked me nicely for a copy, I would pay the extra 1.00 for an extra copy at the photo lab.

On my mission, I soon discovered that I was finding all these extra copies that I had gone to the trouble of paying for and elders would leave them on the wall or on the floor of the apartment when they transferred out of the area. I stopped doing that about a year into my mission. They just don't care.

Side note: My dad would use his video camera with tripod to make recordings of ward socials in the cultural hall. He then would dub in some nice background music and make 7-8 copies and pass them out at church. Not one member ever had the courtesy to say ANYTHING his custom made VHS tapes. I didn't find out about this until the last years of his life. That's when he finally told me the truth about the rottenness of members. He told me that he had wasted a lot of time (and $$$- he wasn't getting any donations for blank VHS tapes).

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to be negative or cynical, but I
> found out the hard way about what the church is
> all about.

I'd call that being realistic, not cynical.


> First, Mormonism is all about the present moment.
> It's not about recalling or reminiscing about
> previous achievements or memories.

Interesting point.


> I seriously doubt that most of the missionaries you (NG) connected with really give a darn about seeing or receiving a copy of your baptismal/missionary photos.

I wasn't thinking of them wanting photos of me but rather perhaps of some of the quite good photos of themselves looking productive and happy - such as playing with kids or enjoying a meal. Or maybe they stayed in touch with some of those people and would want a memento. But now that you mention it, I guess not. I'm just a bit allergic to destroying something that someone later indicates they would have valued. The way my luck goes one of them would ask me exactly 24 hrs after the irrevocable destruction if I had any photos of their time here in Beautiful B.C.

Just kidding - but really that's the mindset that causes me to never throw anything away. You might just want it one day and regret getting rid.


> Why? Because they have moved on. (I hope that your
> feelings aren't crushed) They served their
> missions and checked off that box of being a good
> Mormon for the church.

No, not crushed. I observed first hand that most things with Mormons in general seemed to be performative - just list-checking-off iow.

I wasn't thinking at all that anyone was pining for a photo of me. Not even me, given it's a visual reminder of a hurtful episode in my life. Although it was a nice dress and I was looking OK although I am famous for taking a bad photograph. The last good photo I saw of myself was taken by a professional photographer on my R.N. graduation and that was a good while back. As I'm usually the photographer in my crowd I appear in few photos and that suits me fine.


> On my mission, I soon discovered that I was
> finding all these extra copies that I had gone to
> the trouble of paying for and elders would leave
> them on the wall or on the floor of the apartment
> when they transferred out of the area. I stopped
> doing that about a year into my mission. They just
> don't care.

That's too bad - they didn't value your efforts. It reminds me of how absolutely gobsmacked I was to observe, and to find out even more from (ex) RMs here at RfM that, as you say, their mission was a checkmark on their To Do list, as written by the Mormon Church. What a very sad waste of two prime years of a person's life. And of the resources of parents often hard-pressed to pay all the related expenses. Not to mention the trust and consideration of converts who don't know how the church works and how that affects its members - such as missionaries knowingly lying to potential or new converts. When I observed that one day I reacted as if to correct the missionary (I forget now the circumstances or what was said or done) but I do recall one of the mishies literally holding me back from intervening to correct. It's the old lying for the Lord principle, which is pretty despicable. I have no clue how members can think that is an honourable way to approach missionary work.


> Side note: My dad ...

That is also very sad about your dad's efforts that were not appreciated. Yes, what a sour taste it leaves when people are actually taught or influenced by their faith to be so inconsiderate.


Thanks for your comments, messy. I appreciate your insights.

Heavenly Father tricked you into being Mormon as it was the only way for you to end up here where you belong.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heavenly Father tricked you into being Mormon as
> it was the only way for you to end up here where
> you belong.

LOL, D. Yeah, that sounds about right. :)

I for some reason still remember that day over 67 years ago...in a building that was subsequently torched by a member with an axe to grind and suffering a psychotic break...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2023 06:14PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I for some reason still remember that day over 67
> years ago...in a building that was subsequently
> torched by a member with an axe to grind and
> suffering a psychotic break...

Wow. That poor person. What a shock for the members there.

Glad you got out though LR. I'm sorry - I forget - your wife did too right? (Or did you marry as exmos?).

I used to remember people's back stories but as time goes by things get hazy. I could perhaps look it up but what rhymes with hazy? - Lazy. My excuse - It's Sunday. :)

Hey Nightingale....the arsonist was a member of a prominent Mormon family who was, I was told, an alcoholic with serious mental health issues. I know it was hard on the family.
My wife passed away 6 years ago. She was a Catholic divorcee. My girlfriend is also a Catholic divorcee. He He

There's something about those Catholics eh?

My dearest mum was brought up Catholic (due to having an Irish Catholic mother) but my dad was in the Protestant crowd. They both grew up in England where that was a bit of a big deal in some quarters. But to be more exact, Dad was not religiously inclined and Ma didn't go to church as an adult (likely because of his leanings/no religion). Dad made every effort not to inculcate us with any specific religious dogma - I think because of their experiences with their school years over the great divide but I'm not sure. I wish I'd ever thought to ask him. He did let us go to church for a while as young kids when the neighbour, a pastor, asked him. Looking back, and knowing his antipathy towards religion (stronger than just not feeling like attending) I'm amazed he ever let us get within a city mile of any church.

Amazingly to me, both my sisters are somewhat drawn to Catholicism, getting their kids baptized there although not attending church regularly, before or after those events and not bringing the kids up with any specific religious teachings.

So what happened to me - I was intensely curious about a subject that would crinkle Dad's brow whenever he heard the word 'church' - so I ended up first with the JWs and later the Mormons. Admirably (I guess) he kept his mouth shut during the JW years and eventually I quit associating with them, giving him quite a bit of credit for that due to not trying to persuade us one way or the other about religion but teaching us to be curious and ask lots of questions. Too bad I didn't follow the latter path before later joining with the Mormons. It should be ask questions first and only after satisfactory responses then consider baptism. There's a reason, I came to conclude, why Mormons try to rush you into baptism first, questions later - of course they don't actually ever answer the questions. I didn't realize until I started reading RfM that at least for some Mormons the reason is that they actually believe the answers spontaneously generate inside your brain cells - or something like that - because it wasn't like they give you a Book of Answers upon baptism - or anytime later. And, of course, if Heavenly Father doesn't spark up your brain with information once you're dunked there's something wrong with you, not with them. Sheesh! I never even told my family I got baptized with the Mormons. I kinda hope they never come to RfM or if they do, I hope they don't recognize me.

Because it's embarrassing - the self-inflicted wounds that never had to happen.

But on the bright side - I have "met" all of you fine people. And a couple in person.

So there's that.

Hey, LR - watch out for that atmospheric river that's threatening to challenge us again this year. Or doesn't it reach as far as the flatlands where you are? For me, I've just done a massive shop that will likely get me all the way to Armageddon and beyond, because you know how we in Beautiful BC aren't all that good with weather, either hot or cold or wet. I liked the days when things were in the medium range. Like the story of the three bears - I'm Baby Bear - liking everything just right - or IOW - medium. Everything medium. :)

Be good to your lady. It's lovely that you've found each other.

Thank you. I was/am lucky to have found her. As for that atmospheric river...I wish it would sneak over the Rockies. We are treacherously dry and low on water. Lowest river flows in living memory for people older than I. All we're getting is Chinook winds.