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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 09, 2023 10:04AM

She was lucky enough to have somwere to go and the financial resources to leave.

For most Americans, scenes from the fall of Saigon or the fall of Kabul are distant abstractions that could never happen here... but the day may soon arrive when "the border" won't be something to keep people out, but to keep people in.

I will never understand religious fundamentalists or why they are so desperate and driven by hate to destroy everything and everyone who is not like them.

You can tell yourself that you have nothing to fear, there's nothing to worry about, and this isn't happening all you want, but it is happening -- and one day they will also come for you.


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https://petapixel.com/2022/10/14/photos-show-what-life-looked-like-for-iranian-women-before-1979-revolution/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/iran-shah-regime-1979-revolution-protests-liberal-reform-hassan-rouhani-ayatollah-khomeini-a8141311.html

"My perspective, however, is a little different. I spent a summer in Iran in the early 1970s, when the Shah was still in power, American backing for the regime was visible and an Islamic uprising was (barely) on the radar. Younger city women worked and wore heels and lipstick and regarded their chador-ed sisters in the religious cities and the countryside as backward. The assumed trajectory – assumed that is by Iran’s urban middle class, by foreign investors and by the UK and Washington – was that Iran was rapidly modernising and would take its place as a leading, and reliably pro-Western, regional power."

"Mary Isaac was headmistress of a charitable girls’ school in Isfahan, a character made of the same sort of determined and pioneering stuff as the solitary female travellers of earlier years. She had aspired to be a Christian missionary in China, but the missions there were being closed, and she was assigned to Persia instead. By the time the Shah nationalised education and declared that all school heads (among others) had to be civil servants, she was more educator than missionary, and was granted Iranian citizenship to continue her job."

"When I visited, she was living in retirement in a flat in the precincts of “her” school, more Iranian in many ways than British. She even adopted an Iranian girl."

"What I recalled in 1979, though, was this. She despaired of the impracticality of many of the new educated middle class, their condescension as she saw it towards their uneducated compatriots, and their refusal to become involved in politics, which left the field clear for clerics and the corrupt. She was also acutely aware of the authority wielded, largely invisibly, by the mullahs. That, she told me, nodding towards a small group of berobed and turbanned clerics conversing at the entrance to the bazaar, is where the real power lies."

"She also took me into the depths of the countryside, where mores and conditions were essentially biblical. The gap between rich and poor, between those with education and without, between north Tehran’s Westernised “fast set” and the shanty town that stretched as far as you could see on the city’s southern rim – and gave Ayatollah Khomeini his mass support base – was obvious"

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 09, 2023 11:34AM

Leaving for greener pastures is always an option. Our ancestors did it. A friend of my brother's left for Australia a long time ago, and has lived a happy life there. People still do it.

I'm watchful, but not as pessimistic as some. It helps that I live in a state in which the majority agree with my views on things. I've heard a number of people say that they want to move someplace that aligns more with their own values.

IMO Iran will turn again one day -- it already seems to be happening. You can only repress people for so long. 

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 09, 2023 04:34PM

I fled Utah.

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Posted by: Rubucon ( )
Date: December 16, 2023 01:24AM

Ha! Ha!

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Posted by: Chomskyscat ( )
Date: December 14, 2023 08:34PM

Yes, yes, we've seen these pictures before. They aren't actually typical of the bulk of Afghan women at the time of the Shah, but the wealthy and educated classes. Most Afghan women lived a more traditional lifestyle back then. Maybe not as browbeaten as today but certainly not much like these women.

People forget the main reason that the Ayatollah came to power. There was a rich clique at the top of society who took nearly all the money and were utterly corrupt. The rest trembled at the thought of a visit from Savak, the secret police service. Even under the Shah, the government dictated lives.

Of course, what replaced the Shah's plutocracy was even worse, but we shouldn't idealize his time.

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Posted by: Headning is Confused ( )
Date: December 15, 2023 05:10PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 16, 2023 06:10PM

You can't make this stuff up.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: January 06, 2024 03:16AM

While I agree with both Heading and LW about the mislocation of the Shah in Chomskycat's post, I will say that the latter is right on the money with regard to the behavior of the Shah of Iran prior to his downfall. In fact, there was a liberal group that was backing the Iranian revolution, thinking that it could control the behavior of the religious Ayatollah Khomenii after the downfall. Man, were they wrong!

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-media-mixtape

(You can read a transcript as well as listen to the third story in this particular show, the one dealing with Iran from the above site.)

Of course, history could have told them how wrong they were going to be. There were a group of billionaire German industrialists who backed Adolf Hitler's rise to power thinking that it would help them economically. It turned out they couldn't control Hitler, and some actually had to flee for their lives.

edit to add: You cannot control the behaviors of a madman, no matter how much you think you can.

The situation is the same today in the U.S. with regard to one of the presidential candidates. Need I say more?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2024 08:41AM by blindguy.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 04, 2024 12:37AM

Tommy Shaw's still got it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vIjr8mY5EwU

Why does America's World Police remind me of Police Academy movies? And who is the geopolitical equivalent of Steve Gutenberg's character?

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: December 14, 2023 09:48PM

I'm going to go to Portugal. Well, that's my plan. My TBM DW is affected by the church's belief in American exceptionalism. "But the prophet says we're the best nation in the world!" We know now that that's so much shite. It took us long enough to figure it out

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 14, 2023 10:22PM

If you can't make it to Portugal, there's always Idaho ... or Idamaho, as I can't help calling it...

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 15, 2023 12:06PM

I retire in 18 months and may just come to visit ;-)

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 03, 2024 08:35PM

Dammit, we still haven't met, innit?!

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: December 15, 2023 02:25PM

Just back, my smarter half would tell you that you will love Portugal. If not there, she chooses Spain.

(But I already know it’ll be Montpellier in the end. We’ll see.)

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 15, 2023 04:36PM

I saw a retired U.S. couple profiled on a TV show who relocated to Portugal. They have a truly lovely home there, and they enjoy the lifestyle.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 03, 2024 11:38PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I saw a retired U.S. couple profiled on a TV show
> who relocated to Portugal. They have a truly
> lovely home there, and they enjoy the lifestyle.

I read an article, maybe early last year, about how Americans are moving en masse to Portugal and buying up lots of property--much to the disadvantage and resentment of the Portugese. Still: it strikes me as a pretty good place to be if World War III breaks out.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: December 15, 2023 05:16PM

But Cludgie! I thought were were moving to the Northern part of Italy :)

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 03, 2024 08:37PM

Also a great choice. I like Italy because I've lived there for 6 years, and my son studied art at an Italian university. The country boasts excellent health care, and inexpensive living. Ditto Portugal, but their health care system is greater than Italy, so... Portugal now leads Europe in medicine.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 04, 2024 05:27AM

Not to quibble, but I do remember parts of Italy running short of ventilators during the pandemic, forcing the rationing of health care. Fun times.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 06, 2024 01:24AM

Everyone ran short of respirators. And COVID hit Italy and some other countries very badly. As far as medicine goes, Italy has one of the greatest medical schools in the whole world.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: January 06, 2024 01:43AM

But Cludgie, let's talk about what is most important. I have been watching Stanley Tucci: Searching for Italy again and that Northern Italy food looks mighty fine :)

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 07:12PM

It does. Most Americans would not believe it if you told them that the freeway between Milan and Torino is lined with rice paddies. Everyone fixates on Tuscany, but Umbria is a duplicate of Tuscany, and all the way up and down the country it's full of affordable homes, hilltop villages, wine production, olive oil production, history, archaeological sites, and plain beauty. And while each region has its own cuisine (and they all compete and poke fun at each other), but each one has wonderful signature food. And Italians are awesome people. Just don't try to drink two cappuccini in a bar, or order one in the afternoon. THAT's a breach of protocol, and the barista will get a bit miffed. And everyone is looking at you.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: January 04, 2024 12:50AM

Most the world is a shit hole.

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: January 07, 2024 10:24AM

My brother met a lovely woman online from Australia and ended up moving there, marrying her and now has permanent residence there. He LOVES it. The weather is nice, health care system is great, people are friendly and he didn't have to learn another language. I miss him but I'm so happy he's happy.

I don't know if I could get used to Christmas being in the summer, though...haha!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 07, 2024 10:56AM

Yes, one of my brother's college friends permanently relocated there (to Tasmania,) and my sister-in-law has a cousin there (Adelaide for a long time, and now near Brisbane.) It has worked out quite nicely for both of them.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 07, 2024 11:32AM

G'day DebbiePA! Nice to see you around.
I hope you can go visit your brother whenever you want a change of seasons.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 10:50PM

If you do go visit I can hook you up with some wombats :)

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 10:47AM

Canada would be my first choice, Portugal second, southern Brazil (not a fan of hot weather) third. I visited Portugal during what turned out to be the second big wave of covid. Compared to what I experienced in the US, their handling of covid was exceptional.

And thanks to LDS Inc, I speak the language.

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Posted by: T-Bone ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 09:46PM

I fled in 2014, California as well as the USA.

Japan is paradise, if you can handle earthquakes, small homes, and crowds.

The cost of living is amazing, it's safe, and there is little fighting over poliics.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 09:49PM

> there is little fighting over poliics.

It's effectively a one-party state.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 09:59PM

I like the idea of a one-party state, especially if a majority of the population votes for all the party's candidates!

You're either a very happy camper or you're not, and if you're not, you put up with it or leave, as in "I'm divorcing my country and moving out, but don't expect child support!"

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 08, 2024 10:05PM

> "I'm divorcing . . . and moving out, but
> don't expect child support!"

That sentence seems almost. . . practiced.

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