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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 08:37AM

When Mary was told by the angel that she would give birth to Jesus, her reaction was (Luke chapter 1, NIV):

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you.”

OK, I’ll admit to having a dirty mind, but this makes it sound like the Holy Spirit was planning on pulling out.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 09:49AM

She fell in love with a young shepherd she met in the hillsides and she got pregnant the usual way. Joseph was an apprentice for her father and stepped in to protect Mary and her family.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 10:32AM

Virgin births were a part of the mythology of that time and place. Christianity just picked up and incorporated a common myth as it did with so many other things. Personally, I find that particular mythology disrespectful to women.

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Posted by: wowbagger ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 10:48AM

in...

out...

repeat if necessary...

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 11:48AM

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/8-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-immaculate-conception-bv9oa7nm


Who does the Immaculate Conception refer to?

There's a popular idea that it refers to Jesus' conception by the Virgin Mary.

It doesn't.

Instead, it refers to the special way in which the Virgin Mary herself was conceived.

This conception was not virginal. (That is, she had a human father as well as a human mother.) But it was special and unique in another way. . .


The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it this way:

490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.” The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”. In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 02:03PM

True. But the Immaculate Conception and the virgin birth of Jesus are regarded as two different things in Catholicism.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 08:47PM

true

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 04:01PM

So... IVF by extraterrestrials?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 04:49PM


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Posted by: sd ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 01:35PM

ejaculation. God had heard earth girls were easy and when the chance came, he just got so excited and....sploooge! Fortunately for Christianity, some of his swimmers were powerful and made their way in.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 04:17PM

Someone told me it happened, inevitably, at a nudist resort in Colorado.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 05:21PM

Sexual behavior is prohibited at nudist resorts, so if Mary didn’t have a cabin (or at least a camper) at the resort, it truly was a virgin birth.

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Posted by: Brigham Young ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 04:51PM

When the time came that His first-born, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle, instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives.

-JD 4:218

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 05:31PM

...my cousin Mary got pregnant via her husband some 30 or so years ago. And she was thinking of aborting the child if an ultrasound revealed it had special needs. (Fortunately for her and my first cousin once removed [if I remember the family relationships correctly], it did not.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 05:40PM

Children born with physical and special needs are to be celebrated, not aborted. The love they pour out of their souls, is truly awesome inspiring.

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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 09:55PM

lousyleper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Children born with physical and special needs are
> to be celebrated, not aborted. The love they pour
> out of their souls, is truly awesome inspiring.

Especially when one is not making much money. Getting saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars for medical/special needs care that will never, ever get paid cheats everyone.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 10:10PM

However, I will never trade my kids for money or anything. Money becomes immaterial just from the look on their faces.

I chose to work during my first son's recovery in the NICU in the same building as I was working. I would come upstairs, and sit next to him.

He was hooked up to all sorts of machines. I worked as hard as I could for him. Because of this, I felt that it was worth it.

Not to be combative.

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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: December 23, 2023 09:09PM

Understandable on many levels.

Have you paid all the bills associated with it?

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Posted by: One ( )
Date: December 23, 2023 09:11PM

So you have Joseph with Mary & the new kid. Then three guys he has never met show up with presents for the kid... and Joe is supposed to buy "God did it"?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 21, 2023 08:16AM

I think it's up to the woman, hopefully in consultation with her partner. Some families welcome a high-needs child, and some are broken by one. I have spent the bulk of my career in Title 1 schools, and I would never wish an unwanted child on a number of the families that I have worked with. It would not be good for the family *or* the child.

I have found that the people who are most vociferous anti-abortionists seldom work with poor or special needs kids. They seldom work with kids who have suffered severe abuse or neglect. They seldom take any interest at all in these kids after they are born.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 21, 2023 11:27AM

I agree. I think I have mixed feelings about this.

First of all, the people involved need to make the choice.

This choice does involve all of us because somehow or another, the cost of everything associated is usually beyond the average family. So, we donate to places like Shriners and hope(!) there are adequate government programs designed for special needs care and programs.

I also remind myself that a special needs child has their own life of suffering to consider. Their job is not to give me love or be a prop to teach me lessons about life. I hope I would do the right thing FOR THEM individually, evaluating the quality of life over what would make me feel better.

So many people live horrible lives. From what I have seen, some things are worse than death. My heart breaks for everyone involved.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: December 21, 2023 01:02PM

He was 4, and barely learned how to stand so did my son that was 1 year old. They both wanted to sit next to me, So I picked first, and then the second. Third wasn't with us yet.

Both of them with dad was very bonding for all three of us. We gave hugs, and kisses on the cheeks, and we were happy. Mom was not. It was quite sad, because we could have gotten a pic. My ex, I love her, and that's why I have to go through a 'release' session just for her.

Things are a bit better, because it's been decided.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: December 21, 2023 01:29PM

It's wonderful that it worked out for you. I think the point here is that it's about choice. You're happy with your choice, others should be free to make their decision as well.

I have an older brother born with down's syndrome. He was deaf-mute. He made it to the age of 5 and died of pneumonia. In many ways, I think it was a mercy for both him and the family. Given the choice, I'm not sure what I would do, but, it should be an option for everyone.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 21, 2023 02:29PM

What were toilet seats like back then?

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 22, 2023 02:42AM

Immaculate Deception

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 22, 2023 03:16PM

The same way a fat guy gets down a chimney. Magic.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: December 30, 2023 03:01PM

As a kid when I figured out the Santa Claus story was a lie I figured the Jesus stuff was as well. Lots of things are lies. N fact there are more lies than truth.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 30, 2023 03:29PM

Are there really any true Truths?

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Posted by: ShiztheBreathless ( )
Date: December 22, 2023 07:14PM

Since the Toilet Seat wasn't invented until the 19th Century - there goes that explanation.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 22, 2023 09:27PM

Actually, there were toilets with running water and, archeologists tell us, granite covers in Roman cities at the beginning of the Common Era. One of the best examples is from the city of Ephesus, home of--pay attention, EOD--the Ephesians.

https://media.istockphoto.com/id/472071493/photo/ephesus-toilet.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=RsPEMbHCsGBaQjffxLY7Nj-lplVvoaEXHIfyH-LnjLE=

So we cannot rule out the toilet seat explanation!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 22, 2023 10:28PM

>...the city of Ephesus,
> home of--pay attention
> EOD--the Ephesians.

Shouldn't that be Ephesusios?

As in, "Au. como pestan esos Efesusious, mas que nadie, esa bruja, la Gladys Lot!!"

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 23, 2023 12:06AM


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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: December 23, 2023 08:48PM

If you have access to the Story channel on cable TV, there is tons of information about Mary and Jesus. It just confuses everything I ever learned as a kid.

There doesn't seem to be anything concrete as to who, how, where, when really happened 2000+ years ago. Won't take much to convince many to believe the entire Christmas, Christian church thing is all made up.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 23, 2023 09:14PM

And it's from a textbook, which I'm now going to quote, so don't get mad at me for what the textbook says, okay?


    "...A connected Mormon Mystery suggests that when it was time for Jesus/Jehovah to be born to the Virgin Mary, Elohim dragged the Archangel Gabriel along with him when he, Elohim, spied the Virgin Mary leaving her house to walk to her cousin Elizabeth’s house.

    "Mary had just had a vision that Elizabeth, who had heretofore been unable to conceive, was now with child. The Virgin Mary wanted to go celebrate with Elizabeth regarding finally getting knocked up! Elizabeth’s baby was John the Baptist.

    "On the road to Elizabeth’s place, Gabriel and Elohim swooped in, and Gabriel explained things to the Virgin Mary along the lines of, ‘Look, you’re going to find this hard to believe, but concentrate because see my wings? Yes, I’m an angel! Feel the breeze from my wings? Go ahead, touch them!

    "‘Okay, so besides me being an angel, that handsome Being behind me, looking all noble and stuff ... Well, He’s God. But he’s not the God of the Old Testament, which technically, we’re still living in Old Testament times.  He is the God of the Old Testament God, who, in a confusing bit of convolution, you have to give birth to...  Yes, I know it's confusing...’

    "Well, if this doesn’t qualify as a Mystery… !!

    "No matter how it was presented to her (or maybe it wasn’t!), Gabriel performed a marriage ceremony, uniting in holy matrimony God the Father, Elohim, and his spirit daughter, Mary. And then Elohim exercised his husbandly prerogative and ‘bang-bang,’ Mary (technically no longer a virgin) was with child, namely Jesus! Yes, Elohim, the father of Jesus, was his father in the spirit AND in the flesh. Sexy time with one of your own kids!

    "And then Mary spent a brief honeymoon finishing her trek to Elizabeth’s house and congratulated her on being with child.

    "Reportedly, as in it says in the Bible, John the Baptist, as a fetus, jumped for joy within Elizabeth's womb because he recognized that the Savior, Jesus, aka Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, was in an adjoining womb.

    "Nothing is said regarding what, if anything, Mary mentioned to Elizabeth about the sexy times stuff that had just happened to her during the walk to Elizabeth’s house."


That's straight from the horse's mouth, as ghawd (pick one, anyone) is my witness!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 12:42AM

I have a fairly good alibi.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 01:42AM

Hahaha!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 01:43AM

EOD doesn’t—at least not the same alibi.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 11:40AM

A: The same way the Buddha's mother Maya did...which is probably where the story came from in the first place.

Christianity really started not in Judea where the real Jesus of Nazareth was born, lived, and died, but instead in what is now Syria and Turkey ‐‐ which was at the time the western terminus of the Silk Road. Knowledge of Buddhism and Buddhist ideas came along with the trade. The Jesus religious movement was spread by Romanized Jews and others looking for something new and a lot of other things were mixed in along the way. That's how I see it.

###########

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_the_Buddha)

According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha-to-be was residing as a bodhisattva in the Tuṣita heaven, and decided to take the shape of a white elephant to be reborn on Earth for the last time. Māyā gave birth to Siddharta c. 563 BCE. The pregnancy lasted ten lunar months. Following custom, the Queen returned to her own home for the birth. On the way, she stepped down from her palanquin to have a walk under the Sal tree (Shorea robusta), often confused with the Ashoka tree (Saraca asoca), in the beautiful flower garden of Lumbini Park, Lumbini Zone, Nepal. Maya Devi was delighted by the park and gave birth standing while holding onto a sal branch. Legend has it that Prince Siddhārtha emerged from her right side. It was the eighth day of April. Some accounts say she gave him his first bath in the Puskarini pond in Lumbini Zone. But legend has it that devas caused it to rain to wash the newborn baby. He was later named Siddhārtha, "He who has accomplished his goals" or "The accomplished goal".

Scholars generally agree that most Buddhist literature holds that Maya died seven days after the birth of Buddha, and was then reborn in the Tusita Heaven.[citation needed] Seven years after the Buddha's enlightenment, she came down to visit Tavatimsa Heaven, where the Buddha later preached the Abhidharma to her.[5] Her sister Prajāpatī (Pāli: Pajāpatī or Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī) became the child's foster mother.

After Siddhartha had attained Enlightenment and become the Buddha, he visited his mother in heaven for three months to pay respects and to teach the Dharma.


Some parallels have been drawn with the birth story of the Buddha and Jesus.[6] Z. P. Thundy has surveyed the similarities and differences between the birth stories of Buddha by Maya and Jesus by Mary and notes that while there may have been similarities, there are also differences, e.g. that Mary outlives Jesus after raising him, but Maya dies soon after the birth of Buddha, as all mothers of Buddhas do in the Buddhist tradition.[6] Thundy does not assert that there is any historical evidence that the Christian birth stories of Jesus were derived from the Buddhist traditions, but suggests that "maybe it is time that Christian scholars looked in the Buddhist tradition for the sources of the idea".[6]


##########

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 12:48PM

I think Occam would need two razors for that theory. As your source notes, there is no "historical evidence that the Christian birth stories of Jesus were derived from the Buddhist traditions." "Maybe" is as far as Thundy will go.

The answer is in fact far closer to home. Virgin births and gods made incarnate were concepts prevalent in many of the Near Eastern and Greek mystery cults. It's difficult, in fact, to believe that early Christianity could have competed for adherents without those beliefs.

That reality, plus the complete lack of evidence for any Buddhist connection, should put paid to the hypothesis.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 06:14PM

True...but the main point is when you concoct a religion, it's like a soup with a main ingredient and then a lot of other things get thrown in. Christianity didn't evolve in a vacuum. Besides possible Buddhist influence, there's also ancient Egyptian religion, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, traditional Greco-Roman religious art, and so on.

Take Mormonism for example. Mormonism got started as a get-rich-quick scheme by Sidney Rigdon et al. with Joseph Smith as the front man, then Smith takes over and adds his sex and power fantasies, Brigham Young's greed, etc. It wasn't created all at once. All myths evolve.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 06:43PM

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True...but the main point is when you concoct a
> religion, it's like a soup with a main ingredient
> and then a lot of other things get thrown in.

Yes.


------------
> Christianity didn't evolve in a vacuum.

Agreed.


------------
> Besides
> possible Buddhist influence, there's also ancient
> Egyptian religion, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism,
> traditional Greco-Roman religious art, and so on.

Yes, but those factors are not equal. We know about the Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Zoroastrian and Canaanite influences on Judaism. We likewise know about the Greco-Roman religious influences, Mithraism, and the popular mystery cults. All of that is well documented.

Buddhism, by contrast, is a theory with, according to your source, zero evidence. So why bring it or Taoism or Shamanism--all of which arrived at ideas similar to those of some forms of early Christianity--into the picture at all?

Doesn't it just muddy the waters?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 07:30PM

Hellenistic Greeks had contact with India and China. We do know there were some diplomatic exchanges between the Roman Empire and ancient China, so could it not be possible that Buddhist monks could have made it to the West? Like I said, no direct evidence, Like I said, for me it's just a hunch.


###########


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Christianity

There were links between Buddhism and the pre-Christian Mediterranean world,[1] with Buddhist missionaries sent by Emperor Ashoka of India to Syria, Egypt and Greece from 250 BC.[2] Significant differences between the two religions include monotheism in Christianity and Buddhism's orientation towards nontheism (the lack of relevancy of the existence of a creator deity) which runs counter to teachings about God in Christianity, and grace in Christianity against the rejection of interference with karma in Theravada Buddhism on.[3][4][5]

Some early Christians were aware of Buddhism which was practiced in both the Greek and Roman Empires in the pre-Christian period. The majority of modern Christian scholarship rejects any historical basis for the travels of Jesus to India or Tibet and has seen the attempts at parallel symbolism as cases of parallelomania which exaggerate resemblances.[6][7][8][9] However, in the East, syncretism between Nestorian Christianity and Buddhism was widespread along the Silk Road in Antiquity and the Middle Ages, and was especially pronounced in the medieval Church of the East in China, as evidenced by the Jesus Sutras.[10]

#############

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 08:11PM

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hellenistic Greeks had contact with India and
> China. We do know there were some diplomatic
> exchanges between the Roman Empire and ancient
> China,

The earliest attempted Chinese mission to Rome was at about 100 CE and did not get past the Persian Gulf. The Roman envoys to China were several generations after that, so none of these were relevant to first century Christianity.

The Hellenistic link is more likely, but here again there is no evidence of Buddhist influence on early Christianity.


-----------
> . . . so could it not be possible that Buddhist
> monks could have made it to the West?

It's possible, yes.


------------
> Like I
> said, no direct evidence. . .

Yep,


-----------
> There were links between Buddhism and the
> pre-Christian Mediterranean world,[1] with
> Buddhist missionaries sent by Emperor Ashoka of
> India to Syria, Egypt and Greece from 250 BC.[2]

I have never heard of any evidence that those envoys had an effect on Roman religion at 250 BCE let alone during the time of Jesus. There surely were no institutions, no monasteries, no permanent presence, no surviving documents in Latin or Greek not to mention Hebrew or Aramaic.


------------------
> However, in
> the East, syncretism between Nestorian
> Christianity and Buddhism was widespread along the
> Silk Road in Antiquity and the Middle Ages, and
> was especially pronounced in the medieval Church
> of the East in China, as evidenced by the Jesus
> Sutras.[10]

All of this is anachronistic. Nestorian Christianity was a product of the 5th century AD and the Church of the East came into being in the 5th and 6th centuries. The earliest evidence of a Christian presence in China was during the Tang Dynasty, which existed from the 7th to the 10th centuries. None of this comes close to demonstrating interaction until hundreds of years after Christianity was born.


------------
You could be right. But what in early Christianity is not sufficiently explicable in terms of its immediate environment? What precisely is Buddhism supposed to have contributed?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 08:49PM

It took hundreds of years before Christianity became the religion that we know. It wasn't just created out of whole cloth all at once.

I'm not saying that there's any direct "copying" of Buddhism.

What I am *suggesting* is that it *might* be possible that stories/legends of the Buddha and other figures from the East (and Egypt) were adopted into Christian mythology -- even third hand from Indians and Arabs.

A good modern example is the Superman origin story. The story we know today went through many iterations before it coalesced into the familiar Kal-El son of Jor-El and Lara story from Krypton we're all familiar with.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 24, 2023 09:31PM

I agree it is possible. But as you have noted, there is no evidence for it.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 25, 2023 03:21AM

And I suppose that baby didn't lift that truck.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ieZPqa8ofy4

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 25, 2023 03:55AM

A fictional truck works, yes. But I was rather fond of the turtle floating on air.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 25, 2023 11:27AM

I hope all of you enjoyed the true meaning of our celebration of the birth of the Messiah:

            LOTS OF PRESENTS!!


And I trust that as we enter the blessed week of Year End Sales that we will all carry the message of the Redeemer in our hearts:

      NEVER PAY THE FULL RETAIL PRICE!



IsaythisinthenameofJesusHChristamen

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: December 26, 2023 09:08PM

Gawd used a Star Trek transporter to magically implant his seed in Mary's womb!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 26, 2023 09:23PM

Is that an updating of the whole, "...and he thrust in his sickle..." trope?

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 26, 2023 09:47PM

All God has to do is fantasize. Maybe Jesus made him his special wine that day.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: December 27, 2023 12:42PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2023 12:45PM by lousyleper.

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Posted by: Lawanda ( )
Date: December 27, 2023 09:02PM

If she had a sperm donor she would have a virgin pregnancy

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Posted by: parthenogenesis ( )
Date: December 27, 2023 09:19PM

No sperm needed in specific cases.

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