I believe there is a "God", if by that term you mean a sense of your innate worth and a connection with the universe. That is the ultimate objective for us accidents of evolution. We all want it. And we look wherever we can to find it.

The journey is necessarily complex and arduous. Lots of people show up telling you they know the way. And some of them, at least, have been able to find it. But lots more just like to be idolized. These are the kinds of people who start religions. And they quickly realize that in order to maintain the illusion they need to organize and codify. That's when they start a church.

The whole point of a church is to keep you doing whatever it takes to make sure you never reach your original goal of encountering the divine. They invent new rules every time you decide you have make a little progress so you think you have not made any ground. Self expression is labelled as pride. Self exploration is labelled as being tempted. The Mormon church, in particular, invents program after program and meeting after meeting to make sure you never have a moment to yourself. The ultimate example of this is in the Celestial room in the temple: after going through a ceremony that you have been told will lead you to ultimate truth, you are not even allowed to sit down on the elegant sofas to meditate, not for a second. No. You need to get out of there pronto. And that exemplifies the whole Mormon experience.

The reason they do this, of course,is because finding "God" does not require any sort of church, and that means they are superfluous in the human story. Most people on this board have learned that, often the hard way. That's why church based religion is dying. It served a purpose for a time, as an efficient way to organize societies, but in the age of the internet we don't need that any more.

I only hope that we all achieve our wish for self-fulfillment. I can't tell you how. What works for one person will never work for anybody else. A perfect example is Thomas Aquinas. He worked for the church all his life. He found God when he fell and hit his head.

Thank you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 06:11PM by slskipper.

> I believe there is a "God", if by that term you mean a sense of your innate worth

Nope

> and a connection with the universe.

And nope.

I agree with you that the LDS does not provide a good connection to God but for different reasons.

Neither of these are "God(s)", unless you follow pantheism or a religion where every human etc is a deity.

I'm with you more on the second than the first. Our innate worth is something we develop ourselves, without being dominated by another force – church/mosque/priestly caste, state, school, military force etc. The LDS represents authoritarianism and unquestioning compliance with those in power.

Westerners love to worship themselves I think. Their notion of innate worth is not the same as an Oriental's. The Japanese salute each other as minor deities when they bow. But they also have an old saying that "the nail which sticks out shallbe hammered down." Not very individualist.

When it comes to personal belief in a god or gods, you don't get to make the rules. People can believe whatever they want to.

"An oriental?"

"The Japanese?"

". . . salute each other as minor deities?"

Good grief.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Japanese?" . . . salute each other as minor deities?"
>
> Good grief.

If this gives you culture shock, then you'd better take it up with them. Along with all the people from south Asia who put their hands together and say "Namaste" to you. That means, "I salute the god within you" in the old tongue(s).

A Sanskrit word from 3,500 years ago explains the meaning of a Japanese gesture today?

Somewhere "an Oriental" is laughing uproariously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 03:54PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A Sanskrit word from 3,500 years ago explains the
> meaning of a Japanese gesture today?

It's pretty obvious that's not what s/he said.

If so, then you can explain it. What is the relevance of Abjad/Kami Chameleon/your reference to "namaste" on the one hand and, on the other, Japanese people bowing?

And see if you can explain it without reference to 19th century racist terms like "an Oriental."

I'm sure that some older, rural,and back-woods Mormons still say "Chinaman" I mean, my own MIL used to say "darkies."

My ex MIL said all sorts of slurs. My ex even used them in our house. I told her to leave once she uttered the N word. She called at midnight.

I had called my mom, and we were on the phone. I switched it over, after my mom suggested I let her come home. Asked her what she did wrong. She had no idea. I told her I have no tolerance for racial slurs.

She asked me if she could come home. I told her OK. When she got home, I told her, if I heard it again, we'd get a divorce. Her mom kept saying it, but my ex was silent.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2023 10:17PM by lousyleper.

My problems with LDS and other churches, you are never quite good enough, there is always one more hurdle.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My problems with LDS and other churches, you are
> never quite good enough, there is always one more
> hurdle.

In born again Christianity, you get saved once (according to many versions of it).

In some churches you can be absolved of your sins by a few simple actions.

LDS life is complex, but it's a cinch compared to some forms of Judaism or even Islam.

I no longer accept any one person or church as having absolute authority in spiritual matters. Sometimes certain people have useful or encouraging insights, and I accept those ideas after careful consideration. I can also reject ideas if I come to change my mind.

I think there are plenty of people who want to be told what to believe, however, and religious authorities take advantage of that. But IMO a lot of that is conditioning. People are conditioned to be uncomfortable with uncertainty. It took me a very long time to be comfortable in thinking that while I have some ideas about how things work, I really don't know, and there is no reasonable hope that I will ever know. If there is some sort of god who wishes to communicate with me, s/he knows where to find me. Until then, I will carry on as best I can.

I think the problem is in seeing The church as an institution rather than as a body or an assembly of believers.

Absolutely. Religion is not necessary for a functioning society. But the driving principle of religion is to maintain the conviction among its members of moral and spiritual superiority. That's why GC talks are never addressed to the membership- because the speakers all believe that the membership has no need of any correction. Every GC talk is a declaration of the pre-eminence of the group.

But isn't it nice to belong to a church that has all the answers? You can stop seeking.

Are you saying it's a lifelong process?

"To learn as we grow old the secrets of our souls"
Question, by the Moody Blues
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epEBm7iiU-s

As Jbjad mentioned, your definition of God only a works in pantheism. Or panentheism which means God in everything and everything within God. What is existence but objectification? In the realm of God there are no objects. God is not a thing. God is no-thing, or nothing. So one can say that God does not exist. Fine, but doesn't that also mean I don't exist?

Now, how do you wrap your mind around that? You don't because you can't. The world we inhabit is objective. Our language imposes a subject-object duality on our thinking. So we invent myths to explain God.

Are the myths true? If you define "true" as delivering a better outcome if you believe the myth, then yes.

The reason most of us are on this board is that the Mormon myth did not deliver a good outcome. It claims to be a one size fits all religion, but it isn't. You have to be a certain type.

>> The reason most of us are on this board is that the Mormon myth did not deliver a good outcome. It claims to be a one size fits all religion, but it isn't. You have to be a certain type.

You also have to be willing to be taken advantage of in terms of time and money. TCoJCoLDS is a high-demand faith. Some people like a *lot* of control. And many are conditioned over a lifetime to accept that level in control from higher-ups.

Look at the guys at the top. If you take away their demigod status, what do you have? What should I think about someone who actually wants that status? Is that someone I should listen to?

You have a bunch of large business/organization managers. They were not promoted because they were wonderfully spiritual human beings. They were promoted because a) they could run a business, and b) they knew the right people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2023 07:11AM by summer.

Sociopaths have the best butt-kissing skills as a matter of survival. Discernment should put a check on that, but we know how well that works.

Beautifully stated, slskipper.

The way you define "God" the way you did ties a lot of ideas together and makes a powerful point how organized religion with a God defined as an omniscient being to be obeyed serves only to squelch what is the best of being human.

The way you describe makes me think of Religion as the rip tide that keeps dragging you back in the ocean every time you almost make it to shore to explore and discover. Religious rip tide dousing wonder, numbing curiosity. Drowning one in self doubt. Making one proud for ignoring the best of self as rules are followed.

As someone who has hated from youth the Mormon church saying the "the natural man is an enemy to God", I like best when you wrote, "What works for one person will never work for anybody else." And religion, with its "One way to be", is poison to the soul.

Being born into religion is no way to start a life.

The church is like telling a little kid there is a shiny quarter out there and if you listen to them and do what they say, you'll find it and then you can but some candy.

The kid spends their life following the church but never seems to find the shiny quarter they were promised.

One day, many years later, they reach into their pocket, and there is the shiny quarter. It was there with them the whole time.

"All the time, all the wasted time
All the years, waiting for a sign
To think I had it all
All the time."

--- last line of one of my favorite songs---from Barry Manilow's "All the Time."

I appreciate the sentiment, D&D. But seriously, Barry Manilow?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 03:27PM by lousyleper.

There should be a board rule. . .

Not a fan of Barry? Well, here's something I'm sure you'll like....and if you don't, send the link to EOD, the songs pair well with chips and salsa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_up6FeV54&list=PLDJUmXYzjSws4ARBjHJxOd1jOn7kbzxpp

Barry Manilow is like fertilizer for love's nostaligia, and I mean it in a good way.

There's a movie opening featuring one of his songs (I'm listening to music, and when one song is playing, my mind can't "remember" another song) with a VW winding up a Pacific coast highway, and it has always had a profound effect on me, the duality of the shot and Barry's music*...even with the passing of ALL THE YEARS!!!

"I'm all in when it comes to BM's songs," he said, backing away from the IES (Improvised Explosive Sentence).



*YT comes through again! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEX8AFLf59k    1978 was quite the year for me...

007? It sounds lovely as a setting.

My ex listened to the Carpenters, stopped it, as if I had really anything or like I had any interest in them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 04:33PM by lousyleper.

I heard somewhere that Leonard Nimoy was an AP, which strikes me as increasingly plausible.

Such a great loss.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 04:34PM by lousyleper.

>> I heard somewhere that Leonard Nimoy was an AP <<

I think that's what got him the gig on Star Trek. Only someone that has advanced to that level could play Spock. I could have gotten the role, but alas, I was still in grade school when Star Trek came out.

I bet he used the Vulcan grip on anyone that didn't accept baptism too....and maybe on a companion or two when they bugged him.

Modern Mormonism has moved on from Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's get-rich-quick "Daddy Rich" fleece the suckers scam. It's a corporation masquerading as a religion for tax evasion purposes, that's it.


Think: If Mormonism was ideological, why hasn't the religion been codified? Why was "Mormon Doctrine" never officially sanctioned? That's because it's a shell game, and you can't keep changing the rules if you write them down.

I don't know what the Brethren tell themselves, but my guess is that they think they are doing this for some "good" (like a forced faux 1950s lifestyle bubble that's a better way to live than the "outside" world), but in reality, you are just a source of perpetual investment income to them and nothing else.

I understood that God really doesn't care what religion that we are. hence the surge of spiritual beliefs. Most may disagree the direction I took, but it was my own way. No one told me how to believe the experience I had. It happened because of the overwhelming sense of the sorrow I was in.

Mormonism is a crock, and some may think they can't get out, or choose to stay in because it's what is expected of them. There is sealing power, because Christ said so. It was never presented until Christ said it existed. The Mormons will never understand it, because it's in a spiritual sense. Not ordinances, or anything like it, is required.

I agree, there will never be safety in organized religion. Maybe we are to find God, by looking within ourselves.

There will be a fight between spirituality and atheism. It seems like some atheists are adamant about there being no God. What about spirituality? It's not religion, and costs nothing.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2023 04:35PM by lousyleper.

lousyleper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There will be a fight between spirituality and
> atheism. It seems like so atheists are adamant
> about there being no God.

I find that many people who believe there is a god are adamant about it too. :)

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mormon church, in particular, invents
> program after program and meeting after meeting to
> make sure you never have a moment to yourself.

Very interesting point. In other faiths people can choose to show up for church on Sunday. Or not. And the rest of the week is theirs to choose how they wish to spend it. There's nobody tracking you or marking you or nagging you or giving you jobs or judging that you are lacking and need to do this or that to improve yourself or to demonstrate your worth. In my experience.


> The ultimate example of this is in the Celestial room
> in the temple: after going through a ceremony that
> you have been told will lead you to ultimate
> truth, you are not even allowed to sit down on the
> elegant sofas to meditate, not for a second. No.
> You need to get pout of there pronto.

Exactly my impression. The play was mind-boggling, and tedious, when I attended for my first time in the SLC temple. It made absolutely no sense to me, for one thing.

At the least I think they should explain ahead of time what the temple ceremony is going to be - the unexpected washing and anointing thing is out there for a newbie.

And yes, you finally get to the celestial room and they rush you right through.

You're justified in asking what the hell was THAT?!!?


> And that
> exemplifies the whole Mormon experience.

Yes, indeed. Empty promises. Mind-numbing boredom pierced only by occasional bouts of extreme weirdness.


Thanks for a thought-provoking post. I would say thanks for the memories but in this case, uh...

I was living in Ohio in the mid 00's; a few of us had in-home scripture studies, about a dozen attendees once a week.

When ChurchCo Central found out about this, NO MORE MEETINGS


Gee, one would or might think scripture studies would be helpful and wanted, there was always a PH holder there...


Shoot Yourself in the foot much, ChurchCo?


Yup, that's ChurchCo fer ya.

The whole point of ALL religion is to make sure you never find the god you describe as " a sense of your innate worth and a connection with the universe."

This is true of at least the religions who demand allegiance to a supreme being who likes to drown people, send plagues, and keep them jumping through hoops while terrified of the impending judgment and punishments. so much so they don't know who they are. Luckily we have materialism to give some occasional relief.

A few of the non-theistic Eastern religions at least attempt to help you connect with something of greater worth. Buddhism; Hinduism; Taoism; Confucianism. Seem to be based more on exploration and the word God is of no value even though people still call them religions.

Agreed on all points save the inclusion of Confucianism.

Confucianism is more political ideology than religion; it asserts that the key relationships in society are those between ruler and ruled, father and son, husband and wife, older brother and younger brother, and friend and friend. The individual is supposed to find fulfillment in those conservative relationships rather than through some quest for personal enlightenment.

Confucius was trying to establish basic order in the chaotic world of the Warring States Period, which is an understandable objective. Perhaps it is the foundation for any society that wants ultimately to give the individual intellectual and moral autonomy. But Confucianism didn't go that far. It went no farther than emphasizing state paternalism, familial patriarchy, and social cohesion.