Anyone remember the Izapa Stela 5? Or even what it even is? A stela/stele is a large flat stone with ancient relief carvings that tell a story, myth, or history. They're normally associated with ancient Egyptians, Syrians, etc. But the stela 5 was found in Chiapas, Mexico, and depicts what sane people believe is a creation event believed by natives. But Mormons fixated on the carved tree, and filled in the blanks from there, finding that the figures included Lehi and Nephi. A bit of a stretch, to be sure. But in the 1960s and 1970s, it was in our Seminary book ("The Restored Church") as "proof" (PROOF, I tell you!) of the Book of Mormon, because of the tree and the "Lehi" figure that they claimed was Lehi's dream. It also "proved" that the Book of Mormon characters were those who built the ancient cities in Mexico and other Mesoamerican countries. The reasoning, however thin -- although they did suck in the 15 year-old me -- was the story of Lehi's dream. The Nephi figure was holding or near what they said was a jawbone, which, in Hebrew or something, was called "nephi". While the church pushed the claim, BoM apologists were lukewarm about buying into it.

["Book of Mormon stories that my teacher tells to me,
Are about the Lamanites in ancient history...
...giv'n this land if they live righteously"]

Fast-forward several years, and I was taking archaeology at BYU, and we kept getting invited to go to Mexico on BYU-sponsored digs. Of course, I didn't have the money for that, and could never go. (There were also a few BoM digs exploring the ancient Mogollon and Anasazi pueblo cultures of the Southwest). But BYU had a permanent presence among the Mesoamerican archaeological dig sites at the time. This was due to the long-running Mormon myth that the Americas' First Nations were descended from Book of Mormon people, even if it took a couple of thousand years for the original migrants to make it from the extreme north to Tierra del Fuego. This is where the apologists begin coming up with outrageous theories, like DNA being lost (impossible), the North American sites still expected to eventually cough up the expected swords and chariots and whatnot. In the ever-changing Mormon church, I don't where all this stands now, or what kind of bullshitty stories they're spinning now.

Do you know if BYU still has archaeological digs in Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, etc.? Do you know if this crapola is still depicted in whichever seminary text they use now? The Mormons' stela 5 explanation was almost too comical to believe. It makes you feel rather sorry for them.

I remember this kind of thing well. It may be bogus or questionable, but at least it gave the LDS its own character. Now we have the LDS mainstreaming and not doing it well. If you're going to copy the Protestants, don't go fawning to the Pope in Rome. It would also help if they copied the denominations which are growing their memberships as opposed to those whose memberships are atrophying such as the Anglicans and Methodists.

How long ago and how much did you learn as a Mormon?

Keeping the tax exempt status is all that remains for stupid leaders.

As a business what else is there?

Isn't this what a living prophet is for? The Church can easily make up new BS to give BYU students something to do.

I'll bet Rusty could write a book "channeled" from Nephi and most members would believe it. With enough sci-fi weirdness, it too could last centuries.

It is a holdover from the 1950s-60s and the Thomas Ferguson days. He was an attorney who convinced The Brethren that the BoM happened in Central America and went to find proof. The Stele was one of his early "successes" and was trumpeted far and wide as all the proof they needed. Its image showed up everywhere and The Brethren probably wet themselves with excitement.

As Ferguson kept digging he slowly realized that his early enthusiasm was premature. There was far more evidence indicating that none of the Central American archaeology truly fit the BoM narrative, and that the Stele was one odd outlier in a sea of non-conforming data.

After a few years he totally veered off course and became an ex-Mormon. But the church doesn't want you to know that part, so they keep trotting out the few artifacts that sort of look impressive. Normally this is called "lying". But are we surprised?

As a kid in the 50's and a teen in the 60's there was non-stop triumphant excitement over all the "proof" coming out of Central America for the BoM. We were on the threshold of finally having the world see us for what we were. God's chosen. The ones who "knew". I remember that feeling. There was no real reason to not believe it all yet and we were charmingly smug, and, excited.


The young Mormons now will never see the long slow demise of that church from something unique to something incredibly bland with its Dick and Jane Temple Endowment. Now they can be like everybody else as those of us who remember die off.

I expect more from a God than to be bored to death.


And, I just googled Stela 5 to refresh myself and found no end to Mormon books and articles still linking it to Lehi's dream. Never say die!

That whole "hunt for proof" movement was strange.

We know that God has spent six thousand years hiding evidence on the grounds that factual uncertainty is necessary for people to exercise faith, and without faith we cannot be exalted. That's why, for instance, the angel took the golden plates up into heaven. In fact, it was a "wicked and adulterous generation" that sought after signs, so the search for proof was itself sinful.

Yet when Ferguson showed up at the Quorum and told the assembled dignitaries that he could find proof of the BoM, they jumped up and down and threw money at him. Suddenly searching for factual proof was a good thing and not an indication that you covet your neighbor's wife.

Ultimately the church and its Indiana Joneses found no evidence at all and shut down the research. This could be interpreted two ways: either the dearth of proof was because God still wanted people to function on faith or, heaven forfend, the BoM claims were false. Faced with that choice, the church retreated to its original position that God would not let us find the truth.

In other words Ferguson, even more perhaps than BH Roberts, forced the church to stop behaving like a wicked and adulterous generation.

Haha. That's a "Gothcha" right there. A sign seeking generation we were then! Busted.


And in the end . . . There is nothing like FAITH when you need something to fall back on when all else fails. Fixes any problem. The importance of ignorance should never be under-estimated.

>>That whole "hunt for proof" movement was strange.

Apparently that's a common thing. You make a claim, then conduct investigations and hunts to fish for proof. That's all the people who believe the claim need to believe there is probable proof...somewhere. It's the complete opposite of how investigations and scientific inquiry should be conducted.

I wanted to see what anyone not familiar with the BoM thought and found this on Wikipedia. These are examples of what happens when you follow your own imagination instead of the fullness of the Gospel in the BoM:

"Mesoamerican researchers identify the central image as a Mesoamerican world tree, connecting the sky above and the water or underworld below.[8]

"As a creation myth
Linda Schele and Mary Ellen Miller further propose that the stela records a creation myth, with barely formed humans emerging from a hole drilled into the tree's left side. The associated seated figures are completing these humans in various ways.[9] Julia Guernsey Kappelman, on the other hand, suggests the seated figures are Izapa elites conducting ritual activities in a "quasi-historical scene", which is framed by, and placed in the context of, the "symbolic landscape of creation".[10]"


So sad those people didn't have the Book of Mormon to guide them and know the truth.

When I first came to Utah, mid-1960s, the SE visitor center at Temple Square had a section with displays and placards of ancient civilizations writing on metal. They had coins, plaques from walls of buildings, stuff like that. No actual books or even pamphlets.

Somewhere along the line, all of that was scrapped, and replaced with models of horse-powered cranes and other machinery and tools used in constructing the SL Temple, and a cutaway model of the temple showing the rooms inside. Now both visitor centers have been torn down, a replacement under construction.

I guess they decided that their “proof” that a six hundred plus page book (remember 116 pages of manuscript didn’t make it into the final printing) mighta coulda existed, and Mayans carved stuff that looked like writing in stone - that’s kind of Egyptian, right, was laughable to anyone with a freshman level knowledge of archeology.

The dates of existence were wrong. The language was wrong, the writing system was wrong, the number system (base 20] was wrong, the calendar was wildly wrong (solar, not Hebrew lunar, 5 day week, not Mosaic 7 day week), and as knowledge of DNA developed, the DNA was wrong. No chariots, no horses, yada yada yada.

I don’t even think they are pushing the “ya gotta have faith” angle. I think there is just embarrassed silence and they don’t even bring it up.


Just a few days ago there was a SLTrib article about the BoM text that is the lesson book for priesthood/Rs this year. An apologist was quoted explaining how dark skin and skin of blackness was entirely metaphorical in ancient Hebrew culture, exactly the same as us saying someone has a black heart.

Yeah, right. Apologist attempts to save the BoM train wreck have not completely died.

Whatever happened to those old filmstrips Mormon missionaries used to show that had photos of Aztec and Mayan ruins which were proof that Nephite and Lamanite cities existed?

I can't imagine where they might be (sounds of slurping down the memory hole)!

Shinehah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whatever happened to those old filmstrips Mormon
> missionaries used to show that had photos of Aztec
> and Mayan ruins which were proof that Nephite and
> Lamanite cities existed?

Burned at the stake (buildingL

Look at you White Devils trying to steal my heritage, suggesting that my people and I are products of our environment rather than having received 'special' treatment from a loving (but fussy) ghawd!!

Oh you got the good treatment from God alright. There I was slathering myself with baby oil and iodine just to get a tan when all your people had to do was be wicked to get Ghawd's blessings.
That is a two-fer or a win/win any way you slice it.

They could have latched onto the Incas or various other less problematic societies in the Americas. When they were at their height some of these Mesoamerican societies were notoriously bloodthirsty and priestridden, and those pyramids were often for human sacrifice.

Erich von Däniken disagrees and says it is a representation of a space ship.

My kook gloves are in the washer right now, so I'm not touching that one.

Just curious. Why don't you use the same anonymous user name for your posts on different days? It would be helpful to put some of your comments in context with a personality. Then maybe I could tell if some of your comments are satire for example.