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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 12, 2024 07:25PM

Excerpt from article linked below:

“The B.C. Supreme Court has ruled against two congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses that tried to argue their religious freedoms were infringed when the information and privacy commissioner ordered them to turn over records containing personal information about two former members.”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-jehovahs-witness-privacy-battle-1.7079252


The article may be a bit confusing so here’s my (relatively informed) summary of the case:

Two ex-JWs who had voluntarily left the church had asked for records the JW organization (The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society - WTS) kept on them, the Society refused, the men took it to court, the court ruled against the JWs, the WTS appealed to the B.C. Supreme Court and the SC judge just concluded that the church records concerning them must be revealed to the two former members – the petitioners in the case. Yay – a victory for the little guy!


Excerpts from the January 10/24 CBC article:

“… two men [former JWs] independently asked the [two separate] congregations for records containing their personal information in 2020, and both were told they could not see documents concerning their disassociation from the Jehovah's Witnesses.”

NG comment: “Disassociation” is the word JWs use to refer to people who have left of their own accord; i.e., they haven’t been kicked out by their congregation but have disassociated themselves. However, they treat former members the same whether they have chosen to leave or are forced out by being exxed - kicked out by the men in charge in local congregations).


Article:

“Wall and Westgarde [the former JWs] turned to the OIPC [Privacy Commissioner] [because they couldn't get records pertaining to themselves], but the congregations told an adjudicator that the record at issue was "a confidential religious summary prepared by a committee of three congregation elders pertaining to spiritual status decisions," the judgment says.”


“On Monday, Justice Steven Wilson upheld an order requiring the Coldstream and Grand Forks congregations to disclose records concerning the ex-members' breaks with the church to the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner (OIPC).”


“The Jehovah's Witnesses had argued that the sealed records contain confidential religious discussions between church elders about membership matters, and releasing them would violate their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.”


“But the judge disagreed, saying that any violation of the congregations' religious freedoms in this case was reasonably justifiable in a free, democratic society.”


“He pointed out that the order did not require the congregations to release the records to the former members who'd requested them, but only to the OIPC to determine whether they should be released under the Personal Information Protection Act. The law regulates the collection, use and disclosure of personal information by private organizations like churches.”


"The requirement to disclose information is a tool available to individuals to hold organizations accountable for the collection, use, and disclosure of personal information. It also serves as a deterrent to misuse and allows individuals some measure of control over their personal information," Wilson wrote.”


"The judge said the duties to disclose imposed by the law are meant to give British Columbians some measure of control over their personal information."


“The B.C. Humanist Association intervened in the case, and is applauding the outcome.”



This is an interesting comment by the JW men in charge:

“The Jehovah's Witnesses had also argued that if the documents were disclosed, they might be published more widely "for the purposes of mocking either the petitioners or elders, causing unnecessary embarrassment."

I know their job is to protect the organization but, in my opinion, they have an unholy fear of outsiders seeing anything about how they conduct business. What is it, I wonder, that they think would be embarrassing to the elders/church about this situation? And why do they perpetually fear that outsiders will mock them? (Whether it’s true or not that it occurs). Them claiming to be concerned about the petitioners (the ex-members involved, I assume) is a bit of a laugh because all they care about, decidedly, is their privacy to run the organization their own way. It’s much better for them (I believe is their thinking) if they can indicate/hint that the leavetaker sinned or was kicked out than that members get to know that they made an independent personal choice to quit. Because in the latter case members may ask why. And ‘why’ is a question the leaders don’t welcome.


It would be so very interesting to see what the elders included in the records of these men. I'm assuming they take pains to put blame on a former member, in writing even, so there could be a defamation lawsuit there if derogatory information was recorded to try and explain away a member's voluntary leavetaking. My impression/experience is that they always blame the former member and never the church or its leaders or other adherents.

I had the unpleasant experience of people I had considered friends walking away from me in the street - not even being allowed to say a courteous hello. That strict rule ensures two things, at least - one, it reinforces what a terrible human being you are and two, it ensures (or tries to) that even people formerly close friends will not hear the true reasons for your departure. You are viewed as lower than the lowest, as a major sinner, dangerous to even greet in the street. It's horrible when it happens to you. And you'd think it would be bliss if they completely ignore you but often people find the shunning to be exceptionally painful and humiliating.

The organization tells the tale that the leavetaker is unworthy and sinful and dangerous. That tends to keep the majority of members in line. If they have to sacrifice a friendship, or just common courtesy, they do so in my experience.

Their "love" is absolutely conditional. Stay in line or we'll brand you as garbage. I was fortunate to get out quick and easy. When I was younger and more shy I felt humiliated at times to think about what they were saying or thinking about me but I don't care at this point. I pined for a while over a JW guy I kinda liked but what a lucky escape. It was easy as a single relatively new follower to just walk away.

Oh yeah. And you're not supposed to say "lucky", just one of their stupid rules. Strangely, I adhered to that for the longest time, even wondering if the synonym "fortunate" was OK to utter.

What a total crock.

The bottom line with the Watch Tower Society is that you can't leave without consequences - you are automatically disfellowshipped (aka excommunicated) if you dare to extract yourself. They say something appalling like it's to keep the congregation "clean" - being exxed means members aren't allowed to speak to you, at all, because you're a total undesirable for committing the unforgivable sin of leaving. Really, of course, it's to try and prevent you somehow influencing other members to also leave. Even people I had thought were my best friends shunned me totally when I decided to leave. It's pretty shocking and hurtful at the time but fortunately, for me anyway, it didn't convince me to return - quite the opposite because how appalling is that type of behaviour? Masquerading as the word of a loving god.


NB: The Watch Tower organization doesn’t refer to itself as a church and doesn’t like it when everybody else does because they don’t want to be associated or confused with all other churches on the face of the earth that they consider to be “wrong” and sinful and doomed, but outsiders – understandably – think of them as a church, albeit an offshoot and a secretive one. I still usually avoid doing it myself (it’s ingrained in me not to I guess) but it’s a whole lot easier than saying or writing Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society – their formal organizational name - over and over again!).


So yeah, my analysis is more tortured and far lengthier than the actual article (what a surprise!) but first, it can be difficult to try and explain some things in an easy-to-understand way and also it still really bugs me when I read their spin on absolutely everything to do with their church – err organization. So sometimes I just go on and on about it.

And the reason I bring it up every once in a while is because I find a not insignificant number of close parallels with Mormonism. I know it's different being BIC or being a "convert" (especially a very short term one like me) but my experience with LDS was not terribly unlike with the JWs in several ways. For one thing, "friends" evaporated.

All righty then.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 12, 2024 07:42PM

Why wouldn't the JWs just hold back whatever they don't want to release from their records trove and then lie about it?  

Surely ghawd would approve!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 12, 2024 07:50PM

You're a genius! That is a very good question!

It's a surprise to me (and maybe it shouldn't be) that they even have records on ex-members that would be concerning for them to release. All this time I've thought they would be happy if you quietly just disappeared so why would they bother meeting to discuss you (I assume) which is where they would make a permanent record (again, I assume).

And how did these men know there were records about them I wonder.

And what could be in there that the officials don't want to hand over.

I'm terribly curious about this now.

In the past it may have bothered me to think they made a permanent record of me that would (obviously) be less than complimentary. Because they think you're a big fat sinner if you move on from their clutches. That would have humiliated my young self. But I didn't know and now I don't care so maybe it's true that time is a friend as it passes by and takes away some of whatever negative baggage life has burdened a person with.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 12, 2024 08:08PM

I think that is more common than we think. There needs to be proof the correspondence or evidence exists or the defendant will simply claim they looked and didn't find anything.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 12, 2024 08:14PM

Religions are sucking the life out of 'free-thinkers', and the worst micro-managing 'religions' are feeling the heat.


I'm shocked at how the so-called 'sovereign citizens' bow to obey/follow/worship the two-bit grafters in charge of churches/religions, it's the intersection of me me me and charismatic preachers, ministers, priests behind the curtain.

I wonder how Bundy & his ilk live the way they do.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: January 13, 2024 12:07AM

I'd love to see what the corporation has on me.

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Posted by: Arkwright ( )
Date: January 15, 2024 07:28AM

What is the main complaint here? Is it that the JW org has info on people or that the org wants to hide what elders said about members?

If any of you are interested, I recommend an indy film from the UK called "Apostasy" about three women in the JWs and their struggles in that religion. It handles the subject matter with a lot less hysteria and spoon feeding than a Hollywood production would. There is this horrible dead feeling about the religion and it is filmed in quite drab colors. In fact the director managed to get hold of a former Kingdom Hall to film in that the JWs had sold off.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: January 15, 2024 10:38AM

A cult will not allow you to leave with your dignity intact.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 15, 2024 11:24AM

Mormon records are very mundane and boring. I served as secretaries and membership clerks. Not much to see.

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Posted by: Johnny ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 06:20AM

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormon records are very mundane and boring. I
> served as secretaries and membership clerks. Not
> much to see.

For the clerks, yes, but I think bishops get to add extra detail. They xan record offenses and red flag them.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 12:33PM

True, extra details of church discipline.

I was reassuring those who might think that the kerfuffle you had with the RS president is not going to be formally documented or attached to your Mormon membership record.

Many a times, I sat through monthly Ward Council meetings where all the juicy gossip was being discussed. I was the only person in the room documenting anything. The ward clerk refused to attend and I filled in as the membership clerk.

My notes were generic in nature- Brother Thomas may have econ problems. Sister Jackson is ill and needs assistance.

I can assure you that none of my generic notes made it onto their permanent membership files.

However, the JW org may make more meticulous notes about their members.

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Posted by: Livid ( )
Date: January 23, 2024 04:33PM

Any former bishops or stake presidents who can comment?

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 02:08PM

My best friend growing up was raised Anglican but us JW now since marrying his second wife. We are still friends but never discuss religion. Last year he and his wife were at dinner with my girlfriend and I and after the wine was poured at raised my glass for a toast and told abruptly "we don't do toasts". Awkward.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 02:37PM

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My best friend growing up was raised Anglican but
> us JW now since marrying his second wife. We are
> still friends but never discuss religion. Last
> year he and his wife were at dinner with my
> girlfriend and I and after the wine was poured at
> raised my glass for a toast and told abruptly "we
> don't do toasts". Awkward.

This is why:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007128


Excerpts:

“… there are good reasons why Jehovah’s Witnesses do not share in toasting.”


“Many people today who share in toasts may not think that they are requesting response or blessing from some god, but neither can they explain why they lift their wine glasses heavenward. Nevertheless, the fact that they do not think the matter through is no reason for true Christians to feel obliged to imitate their gestures.”


“The 1995 International Handbook on Alcohol and Culture says: “[Toasting] is probably a secular vestige of ancient sacrificial libations in which a sacred liquid was offered to the gods: blood or wine in exchange for a wish, a prayer summarized in the words ‘long life!’ or ‘to your health!’”


“Toasting today may not be viewed by many as a religious gesture. Still, there are valid reasons why Christians do not share in toasting, which has a religious background and even now can be viewed as asking ‘heaven’ for a blessing, as if seeking aid from a superhuman force.”

-----

Of course you can't ask for a blessing from a "superhuman force". It's idolatry - or something. JWs are very cautious about refraining from anything that could be seen as idolatry. Jehovah God doesn't care for it at all.

There's a reason JWs are so far removed from roaming free in society. Everything is idolatry! A very serious sin.

It's too bad to live such a constrained life. And to force it on one's kids as well, as JWs do.

My family wasn't JW but I had joined just after high school due to influence from a friend. I recall attending a school program one day, related to my younger siblings. It started with the national anthem and, as JWs teach, I didn't stand for the anthem. My mum looked down at me, startled, and then just shook her head and went on singing. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed but thought I had to be 100% compliant with all the JW strictures so I just sat there, even though none of them would have known if I had just stood up so as not to make a scene or cause discomfort for my family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2024 02:44PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 09:57PM

I know that my feelings towards my friend have changed since then. I can't explain why, just an uneasiness knowing certain opinions he may have are totally clouded by his culture. And I wonder what he thinks about my girlfriend spending her summers here. What's the JW manual say about that?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 10:31PM

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I wonder
> what he thinks about my girlfriend spending her
> summers here. What's the JW manual say about that?

You could probably give that a good guess. I'm sorry.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 22, 2024 09:41PM

Oh well, Nightingale....he and his wife were very cordial to my girlfriend but as with all things, he's entitled to his opinion.

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Posted by: agnome ( )
Date: January 20, 2024 06:36AM

Toasting, birthdays, Christmas, blood donations. Do the JWs allow anything which is fun?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 20, 2024 07:30AM

Not a whole lot. Over the course of my teaching career, I have come to feel sorry for JW children. They are invariably very nice children, but very constrained by their faith. Years ago, I had one very bright and hard-working student. He wanted to become a doctor when he grew up. I encouraged him in this, while at the same time knowing that his faith would likely heavily discourage him in this ambition at some point.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 02:38PM

> "We don't do toasts."


So enrolling them in the
'Jam/Jelly of the Month'
club would be a waste of
money...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 17, 2024 10:15PM

"Having already plucked the low-hanging fruit, Jesus is now reduced to picking tomatoes."

--Henry Gibson, Danish manufacturer of doll houses

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Posted by: HMer ( )
Date: January 21, 2024 04:25AM

I'm never sure whether the JWs are better or worse than the LDS, or about the same. They force(d) their members to do door to door for many years which is something you could avoid in the LDS.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 21, 2024 07:07AM

I consider them roughly the same. They are both high-control groups.

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