I have always enjoyed looking at the graphs with the probabilities of any of the Q15 becoming church president. Here is the latest 2023 version with some adjustments (the dotted lines) for presumed health issues. Oaks, Holland, and Bednar are still the predicted next three church presidents. Uchtdorf might have a slim chance between Holland and Bednar.

https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2023/10/17/church-president-probabilities-2023-update/

What got me to look this up was a post on r/exmo detailing how Dallin Oaks is a thoroughly miserable human being:

https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/196mwdk/oaks_came_to_my_ward/

Another poster responded with a negative story about Holland. And Bednar has made a career of being an asshat -- there are so many negative stories about him, that some exmos have taken to calling him "Susan's husband." Feel free to share your best stories about these oh, so lovely human beings who might one day take over the reins from the Rusty Bucket.

I have a close relative, now deceased, who worked with Oaks for many years and thought highly of him. That changed, however, when Oaks was made an apostle and started compromising his moral character for the job. It wouldn't surprise me if he is miserable.

The truth is that Oaks sold his soul to the devil and it's unclear which of the two got the worse deal.

Oaks has never exuded empathy, IMO. That alone qualifies him to move up!

Do any of them have empathy? At this point, IMO both Oaks and Bednar are devoid of it. Not as sure about Holland.

I don't know Oaks from Adam and so cannot comment on his character. I agree completely, though, that the church only promotes people who will side with the hierarchy and against ordinary members anytime a conflict arises.

At BYU Jeffery Holland was the happiest guy you could meet. He had his dream job. As an apostle he’s so miserable.

Oaks and Holland were both pretty competent administrators when they were at BYU, and Holland in particular had a pretty sunny disposition. They were both a breath of fresh air after Ernie Wilkinson.

I think they both sold their souls to the devil. I think Oaks may be miserable, but there is no doubt in my mind that Holland is deeply miserable, so much so that I think it will break his health, and he won’t survive to be PSR.

I doubt Holland will survive but he always struck me as the better of the two.

Remember that Bednar is waiting in the wings too thanks to being made an apostle while youngish. An ultraslimeball and the church's answer to David Miscavige.

"the church's answer to David Miscavige"

That's exactly what Bednar is. Very well said.

Yes, others have commented that Holland used to have a cheerful disposition. I wonder what it was about being in the church leadership that caused him to change. Perhaps, like that bishop that just resigned, he was asked to do too many terrible things.

I think he saw how the sausage was made and by that time he was so far in it he couldn’t get out.

I liked Jeff Holland when he ran BYU. He was where he wanted to be and his wife was happy. Once he became an apostle he became bitter and his wife looked miserable. Jeff was a great administrator.

Oaks is the classic example of hypocrisy. After all it was Oaks who gave full throated approval to gay conversion therapy at BYU, including electroconvulsive and insulin shock treatments. Now he's on board with the gay thing because ChurchCo is moving in that direction.

Insulin shock treatments? Never heard of that (I did hear about the electric shock treatments.) Playing around with blood sugar could kill someone.

Arkwright Wrote:
-------------------------------
> including electroconvulsive
> and insulin shock treatments.


Source?

I like sticking it to the church as much as anyone, but if you overreach, you taint the good stuff.

It's the dictionary strategy: make up a word and wait for reality to catch up.

Good point!

electroshock becomes electroconvulsive and packs more oomph!

but the "insulin shock treatment" is both new and fascinating!  One wonders if weight loss was a side benefit.

Insulin shock treatment was used to treat psychiatric disorders for a few decades. I don't know if it was used specifically for gay conversion therapy - I cannot find any reference to it being used at BYU, but by the 1970s it had been pretty much discarded as a treatment for anything.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_shock_therapy

But it will soon become true. Scraps of paper have been submitted!

Side effects could include brain damage, loss of long-term memory, and death.

Thanks, [|].

From the content on Wikipedia, neither electroconvulsive nor insulin shock treatments would have been attempted at the Y during the halcyon days of "Get the Gays!"

The descriptions I've found regarding BYU's 'aversion therapy' involved 60 to 90-minute sessions, rather than the two 'in-patient' treatments Wikipedia describes.


Besides, Merrill Joseph Bateman, 11th president of Brigham Young University from 1996 to 2003, declared in 1997, "We have not been able to verify your assertion that electric shock therapy...was ever used on gay and lesbian students at BYU."*




*http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html  (there are no page numbers; it's way down deep in the section on the Y, about 3/4's into the text, looking at the right edge scroll bar...)

Yes, BYU did not use ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). They used electric shocks as an aversive therapy. As noted above, I could not find any evidence that BYU ever used insulin shock therapy, and given the intensity of the monitoring required I can't imagine them doing it outside of a hospitalsetting.

Yeah, agree on that.

LW said:
>>It's the dictionary strategy: make up a word and wait for reality to catch up.

See? That's why we gotta get out there and ban dictionaries!

"Except for the Mayan-Irish one. That's irreplaceable."

--Shah of Afghanistan

Oaks' treatment of gays needs a new thread to itself.

I have a friend who went to BYU who was “struggling” with(shhh…same sex attraction). He didn’t do shock therapy, but his bishop told him that he needed to go play basketball with other men……wait for it…WITH THEIR SHIRTS OFF!!! Yep, that’ll “cure” him! He graduated and moved to Southern California and fortunately, came out, and is very happy to be gay and NOT Mormon.

Which is precisely why used car dealers and middle school maths teachers should no pretend to be religious leaders.

Holland really screwed the pooch when he was caught lying to the press in that cringe-worthy BBC article where Holland denied the Strengthening Church Members Committee.

That was in the BBC documentary "Meet the Mormons."

So what did the church do? It immediately rolled out its own documentary "Meet the Mormons" and then publicized the hell out of it so that the BBC one was buried and no one could find it.

That's how God's public relations team works.

My money's on an old man being the next president.

They're ALL oozers, and,
They're all losers

Bednap visited a congregation once to call a new SP.
He sure expected aggrandizement... The Fool,
Saying he didn't have time after the hour to socialize,
He needed to hurry to get back to the airport,
That he had somewhere else to be.

ANYWHERE but with the saints-
VERY unsaintly!

"He needed to hurry to get back to the airport, That he had somewhere else to be."

That's what I call a smart SP. I wouldn't want to socialize with Mormons either.

The aposthole didn't want to socialize with the mormonites.

He's not smart. Just an AH!

Bednar is a serious likelihood, and seems willing to take part in weird international religious gatherings.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2506097

https://climaterepentance.com/participants/

"The following participants contributed to the creation of
Returning to Mount Sinai –
10 Principles for Climate Repentance
or took part in the repentance ceremony...

"Elder David Bednar, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, USA
Metropolitan German, Ukraine
Bishop Josiah Fearon, England"

Pure speculation: It seems like the passing of Ballard has prompted the church to adapt/soften certain church policies. Since the church is very good at withholding info from the public and its members, one has to wonder how often Nelson, Oaks, Eyring and Holland are absent from church duties.

Oh the church does very well when a church leader has been released from critical care, but there is no mention when a leader is rushed to the hospital, fighting for his life. We just don't know how ill the octogenarians really are.

I wonder if the newest church PR rep was hired by lower level leaders. Knowing of the disdain, disgust and ire that the leaders have openly displayed for homosexuality, the newest guy on the block wouldn't necessarily be their choice. However, I think leaders who routinely deal with church policy involving membership records (church discipline) might want a softer policy because their day-to-day operations deal with endless headaches (and heartbreaks).

I am also wondering if there is a contingency plan which foresees a slightly younger group of minds which may want the church to become slightly more progressive because many youth feel alienated with some church core values.

How good do you think RMN's health is? As far as I can tell he was very good for his age initially but not so much the last year or two, but that might be just rumor.

I don't think he is in Benson/Monson territory mentally just yet.

    The above is the date Russell Nelson completes his 100th circuit of our solar system's guiding light, Sol, and gets to be called a Centenarian.

    I hope he makes it!  It'll give the missionaries something to do on their day off.


    Google says that 0.03% of today's population is 100 years old or older, but that this figure will rise to 0.1% by 2054.  At that point, I will be 109, and my appearances here on RfM will be by appointment only.

WHPrice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How good do you think RMN's health is? As far as I
> can tell he was very good for his age initially
> but not so much the last year or two, but that
> might be just rumor.
>
> I don't think he is in Benson/Monson territory
> mentally just yet.

We only know what the church chooses to broadcast to the members. When leaders are well enough to perform their duties then the church's PR ramps up its propaganda machine: Nelson goes to Africa, Holland dedicates cow pasture in Florida, Oaks blesses new nuclear dump site in Tonopah.

When the leaders are in the hospital or recuperating from illness, then all is quiet. Lately it has been very quiet from the top.