While making my daily perusal of the Daily Herald, came upon an article regarding the use of churches as shelters for the homeless in Utah county when the temperature drops below 15 degrees. Three churches were mentioned as having provided refuge from the storm. I thought the LDS mormons had a lot more than three churches in the area......oh, wait a minute, none of them were LSDS mormon churches i.e. chapels. With hundreds of chapels in the area, that would seem to be a no brainer of a way to utilze these mostly empty and unused buildings......keeping some fellow human beings from freezing to death. A real opportunity to actually use the buildings for something noble.......alas, not happening.
On a side note, an article today in the paper described the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as a body which oversees the business interests and global development of the church.
And here I thought that they were second witnesses for JC. Oh, well, times change I guess.

They should lose their tax-exempt status if they don't actually serve the community.

    I have it on good authority that the Utah Saints pleaded with ghawd to be able to serve the poor, the needy, the downtrodden...

    But ghawd, tears streaming down his cheeks, his chin quivering, begged the Saints judge the matter with their wallets, not their hearts, at one point telling them that wallets can do math and hearts can't.

    Ghawd also added that the colder it is, the less likely it is that women will bare their shoulders, which explains why corruption of the flesh drops 41.7% under 38°.

    Percentage-wise, there are more Esquimoux, Polar Bears, and Penguins in the Celestial Kingdom than any other ethnaughtities!  Would I lie?

They should make the cost of admission a gospel lesson with the missionaries.

Well actually, sister missionaries have been proven in survival situations regarding hypothermia. Probably not what the church has in mind.

bradley Wrote:
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> They should make the cost of admission a gospel
> lesson with the missionaries.
>
> Well actually, sister missionaries have been
> proven in survival situations regarding
> hypothermia. Probably not what the church has in
> mind.
-----------------------

A number of shelters and food halls run by religious groups have a sermon folks are supposed to listen to as they take advantage of what is offered. Nothing major, but it is there.

You must know Mormon God the way I do.

Good observations. Tragic.

I do not agree. First, this is an election year. Why are we just now hearing of this?

If we can be serious for a moment, you can't have it both ways. You can't seriously have untrained lay persons acting as a liason for the homeless.

Salt lake valley is a valley, with valley temperatures. Not crazy Donner Pass temperatures. It is survivable at its worst. Even if the street is a dumping ground for mental hospitals, the insane aren't stupid. The article seems to be conflating the two.

Anyway, my proposed solution is for mental health professionals to serve their residencies at churches, specifically to address the homeless problem. Let me ask you, would LDS Inc be open to that in any way?

TSCC is practicing psychology whether they want to admit it or not. Fine, then be subject to oversight and state boards.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2024 02:39PM by bradley.

bradley Wrote:
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> I do not agree. First, this is an election year.
> Why are we just now hearing of this?

I'm not getting the connection. (Not that we can discuss politics here but ???).


> If we can be serious for a moment, you can't have
> it both ways. You can't seriously have untrained
> lay persons acting as a liason for the homeless.

The OP says:

"... the use of churches as shelters for the homeless in Utah county when the temperature drops below 15 degrees.

" ...With hundreds of chapels in the area, that would seem to be a no brainer of a way to utilze these mostly empty and unused buildings......keeping some fellow human beings from freezing to death. A real opportunity to actually use the buildings for something noble."

robinsaintcloud didn't mention a single word about "untrained lay persons acting as a liaison". The point of the entire post, as I read it, is that there are a lot of empty buildings which could provide space and heat for unhoused people who would otherwise be on the street in cold weather.

It's about shelter in an emergency situation. "Valley temperatures" can be quite unpleasant if you're out in the elements, especially without warm/appropriate clothing and a cup of hot soup now and then.


> Salt lake valley is a valley, with valley
> temperatures. Not crazy Donner Pass temperatures.
> It is survivable at its worst.

So civil society should be content to just leave people outdoors 24/7/365? Cold is still cold.


> Even if the street
> is a dumping ground for mental hospitals, the
> insane aren't stupid. The article seems to be
> conflating the two.

I will avoid, with self-control on the matter, addressing the terminology. (Except to say "insane"?)

I don't understand the point of the phrase "the insane aren't stupid". What has that got to do with whether a person has adequate shelter from the elements or not?

Even the devil needs an advocate these days. I suppose you get what you pay for.

Maybe the timing is fallout of COVID. Who will be his brother's keeper? The churches enjoy enormous public support for exactly that.

We criticize the church for its worthiness interviews but want those same people to extend their "help" to the homeless.

The way I see this going is for property owners to be legally compelled to accommodate the homeless. It will be in deeds. Hospitals are already required to do that. They treat the indigent because they are compelled, not out of the kindness of their hearts. It's like garlic to vampires.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even the devil needs an advocate these days. I
> suppose you get what you pay for.

I'm not sure if I'm the advocate you're referencing here. I have never been accused of advocating for him before so that's a new one for me.


> Maybe the timing is fallout of COVID.

The timing of what? I'm not understanding. So many homeless people?


> We criticize the church for its worthiness
> interviews but want those same people to extend
> their "help" to the homeless.

I don't see any connection between worthiness interviews and opening the doors to shelter people who are homeless. Lots of empty buildings. Lots of people out in the elements.


> The way I see this going is for property owners to
> be legally compelled to accommodate the homeless.
> It will be in deeds. Hospitals are already
> required to do that. They treat the indigent
> because they are compelled, not out of the
> kindness of their hearts.

I highly doubt that. Hopefully we all still live in a democracy and that will continue.

Hospital beds/spaces are needed for people who are ill. At least here in Canada there is a crisis re inadequate space for the numbers of patients needing care. They don't have any beds for people not in urgent need of medical care and not enough beds for all the patients seeking help.

It's people in churches, including and maybe especially their leaders, who could show kindness to those in need.

I see your added comment in your first post above. That suggestion may have some merit if it's found to be workable. I imagine, though, that most churches, including LDS, would see lots of issues for themselves around the shelter idea. Insurance, safety, responsibility, liability.

On the face of it, the use of buildings otherwise sitting empty sounds like a reasonable option to explore but obviously there are many complex issues around the idea. Churches are pretty much meant for their own attendees it seems. I do know plenty, though, that offer meals and food hampers to people in need. Having them stay/live in the buildings sounds like a good use for empty space but is likely not workable for most places. I don't blame people for that - it's definitely a complex issue. It would be nice, though, if more people in the helping professions, including church folks, would put their minds to this growing societal issue.

It's not only people with mental health challenges who become homeless. Often, unexpected circumstances outside a person's control occur and cause them to end up on the street, a development they didn't foresee, and then they inevitably spiral downward. It's too bad that many attribute fault to a person who is homeless but it's not always that way. And even if it is a result of unfortunate choices that doesn't mean they don't deserve compassion and whatever help is possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2024 03:23PM by Nightingale.

Bradley (a corruption of the Adamic 'broad lay') mentioned "Mental Health"...  You know I'd never be so bold!

So..., what is "Mental Health"?  We need specificity in order to properly address the issue of "Mental Health Professionals."

Is "Mental Health" a term of precision, or is it more of a "let's try to keep in the ball park" term?

Can one's nationality, skin color, sexual orientation, toe nail length, horniness, etc. impact "Mental Health"?  What guarantees, if any, apply to "Mental Health"?  Are these guarantees subject to time limits or alcohol content?

Are "Mental Health Professionals" always guaranteed to wield proper "Mental Health"?  

Which you prefer to possess, "Mental Health" or "Mental Wealth"?  And is "Mental Lots of Money" in the running for how to live your life?

What would Jesus do?

"What would Jesus do?"

Exactly! You got questions about life? Ask the man with the leaf blower.

Mental Health Professional is a rubric for state sponsored cleric. So why not put psychology and religion in bed at the outset?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2024 03:08PM by bradley.

bradley Wrote:
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> . . . the
> insane aren't stupid.

Love that distinction. John Nash would agree.

Well, some devil's advocates are better compensated than others.

It would be important, however, to add that some of the insane are coincidentally stupid.

Some even wield leaf blowers in the dead of winter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2024 03:16PM by Lot's Wife.

Take the point of view of the homeless person who faces mental health challenges. Rather than burden a host family with those challenges, they prefer to go it alone.

Put another way, the homeless have freedom of association. I would not recommend having TSCC as friends. Maybe we can agree on that as well.

Now that homelessness has reached epic proportions, our notions of ownership are being challenged on their merits of sustainability. Right here on land we stole from those who hold the land sacred. You offer me White Man's shelter, I must respectfully decline.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2024 03:35PM by bradley.

Remember in 2010 when Haiti was hit with two natural disasters within a few weeks? After a huge earthquake, a good lot of Port-au-Prince and other towns was destroyed. Then, with people living in cardboard and scrap wood make-do shelters, they were hit with a hurricane in a double whammy. The church was blasted because they refused to allow the chapels to shelter people. If you Google "mormons Haiti earthquake", you see that the few dozen entries that appear on Google, every one of them are from the LDS church in some way. Several are "news" sites directly from the church, and several from sites like LDS Living, Church News, Deseret News, etc., who have apparently spent lots of money to control the narrative. The most positive one says that the church gave donations through non-LDS charities. Might be true. Who knows? But this is where the cynicism erupts in my brain. To me, it looks like they're just wanting the public off their backs. They also really played up how the temple in Haiti was spared any damage, and that God had therefore blessed the Haitians. The baptized and endowed dead people win again.

During this time, a large cadre of BYU students blew into town to repair homes and build new shelters. They were shadowed by a Church News photographer, who shot pics of the students holding hammers and pieces of wood. Independent outlets reported that the students dinked around by building a few crappy and poorly built shelters, and afterwards they all flew out again. It was an obvious attempt to make it look like the church was assisting the effort by printing a few cheap pics of the so-called "efforts". I think that says it all and them some.

Shortly after the earthquake, the island nation was hit by a hurricane, blowing away the make-do shelters blew away, but again it was all about how the temple was spared from damage, as if to draw away the eyes.

Part of Mental Healtg (mental wellness) is having a stable if not reliable social network; family, church, neighbors, co-workers, etc.

Loneliness is a serious sometimes fatal outcome of not having a social network, I'm sure that's why some unhoused ppl stay in 'camps'.

ChurchCo wants to be the co-network with families, that's part of the reason why members, especially males are encouraged to accept those non-productive, time consuming callings...

It's Wonderful!!

What's the background of these people? Are they mostly bankrupt from recent economic crises?