What is the current percentage of members holding recommends, do you think? Do some of them just get the recommend as needed (i.e. for a family member's wedding?) How has the percentage changed over the years?
work in the temple. Seems they just dedicated one and had another one nearby. According to article they need people in day shifts badly. I guess the older folks are passing away and they can't fill the positions. Last time I went about a year ago they had a man and women at front of room. The man all he did was press buttons for presentation and give prayer in prayer circle. A little demo at veil. I can't image anything more boring. When I went through in 1967they has a full cast and everyone was doing something the whole ceremony. Last time I went through as I watched the front people it was "death by boredom." I went through Toronto temple a couple of times several years ago. Last session. Just two of us and at end just me in Celestial room. Could not find any workers as I left Celestial room and went to change clothes. Nobody was around. I will confess it felt terrible to walk around that large temple and seeing no one. There was someone at front desk when I left and I told him I will not be back. He told me this was normal during weekdays having no workers. The question I still ponder is why I felt terrible being alone in the temple and why it felt creepy. That surprised me as I thought I would have felt the opposite.
It used to be okay 40 years ago because only the uber pious were granted temple recommends. Most full time tithe payers were either too self-reflective (because the church used to teach that no unclean being could enter the house of the lord- the church reinforced this with endless stories of people who had LIED to church leaders suffered catastrophic calamities. Ex car crashes, sudden hail storms, freak lightning while walking through the parking lot AND people sitting through these lessons would add their own "I have a cousin in UT who crashed into a ditch...and he apparently was having an affair!!! Oh, my!
And a lot of the 25-50 year old Elders worked 2 or more jobs, often on Saturdays to make ends meet. They didn't have time to drive 3+ hours to the temple. These were the same ones being asked to volunteer time and labor at church welfare farms and church canneries. These Elder blue collar grunts were often inferred that they weren't spiritual enough to be leaders in the ward. The ward's spiritual strength and might were the 70s who did the bulk of both temple work and missionary work along with the High Priests.
To me, it protected me from being pushed/guilted into callings I didn't want.
No recommend no calling.
Constant subtle hints, shave your beard and get a recommend and you could be bishop, was all the motivation I needed to avoid a recommend.
It seems someone told me recommends last two years?
I still remember when there were less than 10 temples worldwide and you only got a recommend if you needed to watch someone get married or accompany them to get endowed.
When I was an elder and very devout many years ago, there were very few temples, and most of them were in Utah, You only got a recommend when you had to attend someone's wedding, if you didn't live close to a temple. The recommend was a 3-part carbon, 8½ x 5½ and was for a specific temple. Its ONLY use was to get you into that temple. It was not, as it is today, a membership card or certificate of devoutness.
When I got mine, to get married, I was not asked invasive questions - the bishop knew me as a good member, and that was enough. The stake president just automatically signed it because he trusted the bishop's judgment.
There were few temples because the church was having financial problems for most it’s history. The church builds lots of temples now because it has the money to do so. The church became a better investor since the 1950’s.
I have a friend who is on a stake high council, Bountiful UT area (that is, the heart of Mormondom). He didn't give specific numbers, but he said I would be surprised how many of the apparent stalwarts - in the pews nearly every Sunday, are not full tithe payers and/or don't have TRs.
I clearly got the impression that less than half had TRs. Whatever the number, I think he is right that it is nowhere near what I assumed it would be here in the suburbs of Zion.
Most people simply cannot live up to the church demands that one must have to obtain a recommend.
Having been both an Executive Secretary and a Finance Clerk, most of the ward simply could not afford to pay 10% tithing. You have 5 to 6 kids, and are working two jobs. It was not possible. Some people would not give up their tobacco or beer, they worked on Sunday and could not attend all their meetings, etc. I knew one guy who suffered from insomnia, so his doctor suggested he have a beer before going to bed, it worked well for him. But kept him from ever having a TR, although he was the choir director for over 20 years and never missed a meeting or paying his tithing. He was a mechanic and owned his own shop.
Yes, I would agree that many view non-holding TR members as second class, but I found them to be some of the finest and down to earth people I ever knew. If the church ever got a full tithe from 100% of their faithful followers, I have no doubt their war chest would be worth at least 500 Billion by now.
So even though he could have drunk two beers a night, it was still one beer a night compared to nearby states that have different alcohol content laws.
So he would be justified in telling the bishop it was "only one Beer a night", its all how you play your cards. Or perhaps, " I did not lie. I just withheld further light and knowledge that was not relevant to this situation, as per the example of the Q15."
I was an assistant membership clerk. It wasn't a tithing issue- I didn't make much as a part time retail associate. It was a royal pain in the ass to get the TR signed by the stake presidency. Between going to school, working retail and being a newlywed; there were many Sundays where I was anywhere but attending church. The bishop didn't hassle me, but...!
I recall calling the stake executive secretary to schedule an appt. It seems that they only were available on a Wed evening for an hour (I was always at work) and then they only did TR interviews on select Sundays for 60 to 90 min. For a church mandate which desired 100% of the ward to be TR holders, they made it damn hard to meet with them.
I think I got my initial TR interview in Jan and didn't get a Sunday appt with the stake until the last Sunday in Feb. And even then a sister showed up bawling her head off and she went in front of me (maybe her husband left her who knows?). Another hour wait and the dick says- Brother Goop I am out of time. What was our meeting about?
He reluctantly went back into his office. He made a stink about attending the meetings question and keeping the sabbath day holy. I told him that I worked on Sundays. He told me to quit the job.
I rolled my eyes and said okie dokie. I did not want to argue.
Yet we began to argue over the date on the TR.
-This is now Feb. This was issued in Jan. I am not going to sign it.
I countered. "So I am going to return to my ward without your signature? Do you want Bishop Dickwad all over your case?"
He continued. -Look Brother Goop in case no one has ever told you I am God when I conduct TR interviews. Without my signature, you don't go into my house. Plain and simple.
I said nothing more and he finally signed it before shoving the TR across the table. It almost fell onto the floor as it stopped teetering on the edge.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2024 01:34PM by messygoop.
My mom recently told me that the stake presidency calls her at her home to finish the TR interview. She does not have to travel to the stake center, wait in Sunday clothing (suits or dresses) in the hallway and stare at so called discerning eyes to determine your honesty.
Now you can be walking around naked in the privacy of your own home to answer the phone for a 2 minute interview.
You pick up your printed TR bar code at your ward's clerk office the following Sunday. The ward clerk finds you right after sacrament concludes to deliver it.
Eventually I think the church will allow members with TR to display them on their Utah license plates.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2024 01:48PM by messygoop.
For a LOOOOONG Time, single females 'sisters' were DISCOURAGED from getting a TR/Going to the Lard's house; does anyone other than me remember those days (e.g. my daughters experience)
eta: Plus women married to an inactive or Non-Mo
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2024 05:04PM by GNPE.
GNPE Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > For a LOOOOONG Time, single females 'sisters' were > DISCOURAGED from getting a TR/Going to the Lard's > house; does anyone other than me remember those > days (e.g. my daughters experience)
Yes.
And when my dad became inactive, they were encouraging my mom to consider a divorce and getting married/sealed to a loyal priesthood holder who would gladly pay an honest tithe to the church.
And part of that process had my mom committing all her finances to become a full time tithe payer (because my dad took control of his paycheck). She had to also follow a payment plan for tithing owed from previous years. My Xmas and birthdays were hell because there was no money for gifts. Just socks and tangerines. My 16th birthday was a set of brand new missionary style scriptures. Oh wow :(
The next bishop (the nicer one who helped me fill out my mission application) saw what my mom had been ordered to payback and canceled it. He gave her a TR without fighting over every penny that she had ever paid to the church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2024 03:34PM by messygoop.
In the mainstream Protestant church I now attend, all financials are provided to members each year. This includes funds coming in, what funds are spent on (specifically) and salaries of all church staff. I think if a church wants tax-exempt status they should be required to report their finances.
I think tithe payers should insist on full financial transparency for all funds received and spent. This is very unlikely to happen, but I think members should advocate for it.
I agree with you. It's the norm in most other Christian churches. The churches either publish their financials on the web, or otherwise make them available to members. That is how I discovered what individual congregations typically spend. Most congregations only send about 5-10% of their total income (from the donations of members) to church headquarters. They spend about 50% on the salaries of congregation workers (minister, assistant ministers, church secretary, janitor, organist, etc.) They often provide for charity out of their budgets as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2024 09:37AM by summer.
What percentage of active members do you think did a one-time TR year to attend a wedding and then returned back to a non-tithe paying member status? in such cases do you think a bishop would require payment of previous years unpaid tithes in order to get a second recommend?
I had to generate all the membership lists for the ward. One bishop who I served under had his panties in a bind because the stake president was BIG on numbers. They had a ludicrous goal that each ward was EXPECTED to have 94% of its total male population TR ready. It was completely unrealistic. Even the most sincere, charismatic person as a bishop could not ever get close to those numbers.
The list included dozens of people who were blessed as babies, but never baptized. Another dozen of Aaronic Priesthood dropouts- men in their 30s who were still holding on as deacons or teachers. Then you had men who were elders working two or more jobs but gave a small donation because their family wasn't making ends meet. And there were 7 or 8 high priests who hated the temple and disagreed about church policies or never felt comfortable going to the temple.
I saw the bishop's notes on the lists which I printed for him. He would leave the old list with highlighted names and notes in the clerk's office. It was close to 40%. And even my name was highlighted with exclamation points :)
Out of curiosity I asked him about the best ward in the stake. It was the smallest ward comprised of a gated retirement community. They had 63% of their ward. This ward was nefarious for cheating. They had determined the "dead wood" on their membership lists and had prepared "I want my name removed from church rolls" letters. This was not sanctioned by the current stake president but the deed was done. And thus the members of the Golden Sierra ward were in Mormon utopia because they were mostly active senior age members. They had the best ward stats.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2024 01:03PM by messygoop.
I live near Sequim, WA which is a couple of hours from the ‘Seattle’ temple (actually located in richy suburban Bellevue); I’m wondering if ChurchCo leaders will be ‘inspired’ the build one in/near Bremerton which has a large Navy base & many wealthy types enjoy living on the Olympic Peninsula…
I had nonmember friends in Redmond and I went up there to tour it with them. Wasn't I a good little girl?
I was going to say "hey, I hold a temple recommend"--well, it is in my purse and it is expired by about 34 years. I last went when they changed some things in 1990 I believe and my "husband" wanted me to go see the changes to see if it would inspire me to go to the temple. Not like he wasn't cheating with men or anything. I found it a some years ago and I kept it.
I actually had a guy in Walmart who was in layaway in the Logan store or was it returns? He happened to notice my recommend though it is the old form and he said I don't need an ID, I know you're honest if you have a TR!!! Now he had really long hair and he also was obviously not an active mormon, but he must have been one before!!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2024 06:30PM by cl2.