The church has always had to change to survive. It had to give up polygamy. It had to give all worthy males the priesthood. Now the church seems to be going from the peculiar people to mainstream. It’s even contradicting its family proclamation.

The current prophet is a really strange duck who seems to act like the previous prophets allowed the church to get off course. Mormon is a victory for Satan. The church has gone from a detailed mission statement to Gathering Israel. Whatever the hell that really means. Focusing on Christ and attending the temple seems to be the main focus of the church. The temple is constantly changing.

Seems like the church is being turned into just a bunch of feel good generalizations. The members seem confused on what it means to be a Latter Day Saint.

One thing for sure, as long as there is money to pay the overhead and enough people stay in it, the church just goes on like it always has. What it really stands for or is about who knows. There is no real backbone to it.

Looking at it from another point of view, it's the rotten fruit of a rotten tree.

You're witnessing its slow decay into something unrecognizable from what it was 50 years ago.

The 'teachings' will change. They've been changing all along. The Golden plates were interdimensional and not to be taken literally. The book of Abraham will be seen as only a channeled revelation. Jesus is too busy to be at the helm all the time.

It may be run by AI someday. It may be now.

Just get out.

They already are inferring Joseph Smith was a channeler. The papryrus inspired him but the Book of Abraham is not a direct translation. Now with President Nelson Joseph used a seer stone in a hat and not clear spectacles looking at plates. Well a hat and seer stone isn’t what I was taught growing up. The temple was some place most members went a few times a year. It was never talked about. The whole focus was keeping your dick out of girl’s, not smoking pot or drinking, becoming an Eagle Scout and going on a mission. Oh and winning in church sports.

You could be forgiven for all the things you listed, except loosing at Stake Level Basketball playoffs.

Rubicon Wrote:
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> Now with
> President Nelson Joseph used a seer stone in a hat
> and not clear spectacles looking at plates. Well a
> hat and seer stone isn’t what I was taught
> growing up.

Infuriating, wasn't it? Having us as missionaries teach those lies and then reversing themselves and insisting that nothing had changed.

I'll never forgive their compelling us to tell lies to people.

Classic gaslighting techniques.

I’m seeing lots of TBM confusion right now. They say they aren’t going to leave the church but are wondering what is going on at church headquarters. What’s going on is the church has no spine. It wants to be welcomed at all these big international organizations like the United Nations and such. To do so it’s got to throw the old beliefs away and reinvent something new.

I disagree on some of that.

Yes, the church is abandoning doctrines in order to reposition itself as a mainstream organization. But that's nothing new. It's been abandoning doctrines since the days of Joseph Smith and the protean First Vision, then polygamy, then the WoW, etc. This is nothing new.

Nor will the church be "welcomed" by the UN and other multilateral organizations. Those bodies won't know or care that the puny little LDS church has changed its views. The Quorum of the Twelve Buffoons will never get beyond the kiddy chairs in the Vatican.

What has changed is the emergence of cultural conservatives within the Mormon church, which is of course an epitome of what happened more broadly to the United States. Previously there would have been no objections at all to Romney and Romney-esque politics. Only in the last 15 years has a cultural-conservative movement emerged within the church that feels strongly enough to challenge the latest iteration of Mormonism.

I think the church leadership feel by being welcomed in these groups it helps foster moral in the church. They really promoted the visit to the pope. Of course like you said it’s nothing but they sell it to the members as the church is doing amazing things and you are blessed to be alive to witness it.

If anything, the church is very PR driven now. It’s all about the image.

Looks interesting.

I don't think the church is any more PR-conscious now than during the Hinckley years. That, after all, was his forte.

The problem is that the new guys are nowhere near as skilled as he was. He supported two different anti-gay efforts--one in Hawaii and one in California--and managed to keep the church's role out of the limelight. But he died and the church got burned first with Prop 8 and then with the fiasco about

Hinckley, a man whom I despise, would have handled today's problems more adroitly.

Maybe, but the PR machine of the Church, (IMO), is the most powerful marketing tool they have right now. Hiring this pro-trans/LGBT guy to manage the Media Relations Department it is just another indication of how desperate they are to recruit fringe elements of society in order to prop-up their declining and doubting membership roles.

Might be wrong here, but something definitely ain't right, and doesn't square with the stated "Church mission."

Either that, or the Church Legal Dept.is seeing pending legislation in the wings and is "girding their loins" in anticipation.

I don't think trans people and non-cis people are "fringe elements of society."

Nor do thoughtful believers and young people, meaning the church's target audiences. That is why the church is sending out signals that may well prove unsubstantial.

The changes, even in doctrine, are amazing when they are listed since 1830.

See my review of Charles Harrell's book "This Is My Doctrine" at
http://packham.n4m.org/doctrine.htm

Although the author is LDS and teaches at BYU, his book is neither pro or con.

The A of Faith that mentions Honesty is the last;

is that a coincidence?

me: They're making a mockery of their claim of Honesty.

nothing in the A of Faith about kindness, empathy, or anything like that.

Loved the "honest" leaders getting busted for hiding $100 billion plus in 13 shell companies

And then having to pay a $5 million dollar fine...your tithing dollars at work !!! and to think that just saying the name "mormon" made baby jesus cry

It runs like a leaky ship and the bilge pumps aren't keeping up.

bradley Wrote:
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> It runs like a leaky ship and the bilge pumps
> aren't keeping up.

The Ship of Theseus.

I remember reading years ago about 11 vice presidents at Crown Zellerbach, a paper company. Why they needed so many VPs is the subject of the article. These 11 guys were all let go, apparently with some generous compensation. 10 of them started their own businesses believing they had business acumen. All 10 of these new businesses failed. The corporation they thought they were running as VPs simply ran on its own. They were nothing but overhead.

The Mormon corporation is no different. A few cosmetic changes are made, but it too is running on inertia. Folks are leaving due to its blandness and lack of relevancy to life today. The revelation that the leaders at the top are useless for guidance in improving life is becoming more and more apparent to the faithful.

I agree. Most large organizations run on their own. The C-Suite people set the general direction of things, but the mid-level managers and the worker bees just continue on as usual.

I've never noticed that the CEOs of my school district made much of a difference one way or another. They are all pretty much the same. They rubber-stamp curriculum decisions, and make sure that all legal matters are attended to. It's a lot of the sort of administrative work that is common to any governmental entity. When you have thousands of employees, it's like trying to steer a large cruise ship. Changes are going to be incremental.

The Mormon church is attempting to get to the sweet spot faster than other religions have. That is to get to the point where the factual is seen through enough filters that all that is required is faith. Like the bible. All so long ago there is no way to argue against it and faith trumps fact, and, reason. Faith is the great threat to humankind and always has been.

I always felt that I should be compensated for my time as a membership clerk. The church only wanted financial (tithing) data to be submitted on Sundays, I had to submit any membership data changes during the week (and their server was intentionally shut off on Sundays and Mondays).

I argue that a lot of people will eventually have no interest in doing ANY computer work for the church.

It's insane how much labor the Mormon church requires for free. In any other church this would likely be a paid position. Most churches spend about half their budgets on local salaries (I looked at many individual church budgets in the past.)

I'm not sure it just kind of runs. It has a massive army of volunteers and office workers keeping the thing going.

What did the church have for lunch?

My family for one.

bradley Wrote:
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> What did the church have for lunch?

No beer.

I won't go back unless - until they complete the JST aka the 'Inspired Version' of the Bible;

Even tho I will celebrate that, going back isn't a pinkie promise.