I notice that the "Son of the Morning" is literally demonized. How do we know he isn't getting a bum rap?

The problem with living in an upside-down world is you never really know who your friends are.

So should I close my prayers in the name of Lucifer? It seems a little scary. Could any of you who are headed for outer darkness anyway try it and return and report?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2024 06:40AM by bradley.

but the Christians turned him into one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Lucifer is regarded within the Latter Day Saint movement as the pre-mortal name of the devil. Mormon theology teaches that in a heavenly council, Lucifer rebelled against the plan of God the Father and was subsequently cast out.[112] The Doctrine and Covenants reads:

And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, and was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

— Doctrine and Covenants 76:25–29[113]
After becoming Satan by his fall, Lucifer "goeth up and down, to and fro in the earth, seeking to destroy the souls of men".[114] Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints consider Isaiah 14:12 to be referring to both the king of the Babylonians and the devil.[115

I dunno, man. Angels can be jerks.

He gets blamed for a lot of the world’s problems, but I don’t think he’s ever been caught at the scene. It’s probably Flip Wilson’s fault.

When I was still in the church, whenever I entered a dark room alone I would have my arm ready to be raised to a square just in case he was in there. He never was, but I still had the heebie jeebies. After I left the church I stopped worrying about him and he’s never given me any trouble.

botchan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He gets blamed for a lot of the world’s
> problems, but I don’t think he’s ever been
> caught at the scene. It’s probably Flip
> Wilson’s fault.
>
> When I was still in the church, whenever I entered
> a dark room alone I would have my arm ready to be
> raised to a square just in case he was in there.
> He never was, but I still had the heebie jeebies.
> After I left the church I stopped worrying about
> him and he’s never given me any trouble.

Was that your Left arm you had ready?

Satan/Lucifer/Baalzebub is transparent (no one has EVER seen 'him' (gender ambiguous-uncertain), so s/he Might have been there if s/he wasn't either casting spells in a temple or delivering Pizzas for (undisclosed).

The Mormon view of Lucifer is one of those things that only makes sense if you don’t think too much.

Lucifer’s plan would have resulted in no one being lost, but also no one being exalted. Jesus’ plan was accepted, and Lucifer was cast out. But the thing is: without Satan (AKA Lucifer) Jesus’ plan could not work. Lehi explained it in 2 Nephi: “It must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, … righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad.”

If Satan really wanted to frustrate Jesus and Elohim, all he would have to do is…nothing.

Well, someone had to take the most despised job in heaven, right? Shouldn't he get props for taking that job? After all, God had to create someone for that role. If God's plan requires an evil adversary and he doesn't create someone he knows will fill it, the entire story bombs.

The whole thing sounds like a bad Greek mythology story. I can't believe people actually believe it.

Its no different than the Judas story. According to the bible someone had to betray Christ, thus being cast out for eternity. I remember being taught as a youth, that he was fore-ordained for this purpose.

Wow, what a loving God. "Judas I need a fall guy, so I have chosen you to forever burn in hell with Satan. Thanks for being such a sport about it."

But what I find very interesting is the Religious group. They all say they are making sure that we all follow "Gods" plan, by taking over leadership of the masses and mandating obedience. Isn't this what Satan (per LDS Corp. teachings) presented to the great council? So who are the religious right really following, per their own doctrine?

Stop thinking so much!

Don't forget Eve. Like Lucifer and Judas, she had to sin for God's plan to unfold. And for that she was cursed.

Because God is like that.

Lucifer declined being a "yes man" in a system based on brown nosing. He was the original. Of course he was demonized. What was was Lucifer thinking for Heaven's Sakes!

The natural man thinks for himself and thus is the enemy to God whose whole system is based on sycophancy. This isn't rocket science since a little study and we see religion was started by people whose system was based on sycophancy.

ALL GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST!

Joseph Smith: I'm going to need you to mortgage your farm to print my book.

Martin Harris: Sure.

Mrs Harris tried to save her farm but Joseph finished his woo book anyway and made her out to be an evil b*tch.

"Lucifer" cannot be the name of any being who existed in heaven before the earth was made. It is a purely Latin name, a translation from the Greek. There was no Latin then, nor any other earthly language. The name does not even appear in the Bible except in the King James Version, which was influenced by Jerome's Vulgate translation.

The same goes for names in any language that did not exist in the "pre-existence" - you would be laughed out of church if you claimed that an angel's name was Murphy, or Sven
or Billy or Heinrich or Heather.

The same goes for Hebrew names like Elohim, YHWH, Jeshua (Greek Jesous), Adam.

It does seem odd that in a dualistic paradigm, we only worship one side. Jesus gets all the love and Lucifer is the pariah. They are like Thor and Loki. Who wouldn't rather hang out with Thor? What about Loki's non-gym-rat friends? Doesn't Odin like them?

Christianity is a devotee religion. It is not intellectual in the least, it is heart-centered. That has its place, but I see the Enlightenment as Luciferian. Christ is for the heart. Lucifer is for the head. The idea of rendering unto Ceasar is similar to the idea of giving Lucifer his due.

Being anti-Lucifer isn't much different from being anti-Christ. They're both on Team God.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2024 12:11AM by bradley.

Lucifer isn't for the head either. The Biblical devil tempts people with earthly power, gluttony and lust.

One thing that the Biblical God and the Devil have in common is that they like to plague the population with diseases.

I remember reading on my travels that early Judaism had a rather benign view of Satan. I don't know how accurate this article is with regard to Jewish theology, but it presents an interesting point of view:

https://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-2566/the-jewish-view-of-satan/?p=2566 (scroll down)

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading on my travels that early
> Judaism had a rather benign view of Satan. I don't
> know how accurate this article is with regard to
> Jewish theology, but it presents an interesting
> point of view:
>
> https://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-2566/t
> he-jewish-view-of-satan/?p=2566 (scroll down)

No, not really benign as such. The Book of Job gives an idea of this view. In Job he is basically subservient to God, and goes around bothering Job (who has done little or nothing wrong), and acting as an accuser in the heavenly court.

If you read the article, Satan is viewed as being more of a roadblock than a bad guy. There is no moral or spiritual growth without him. I remember reading a similar account in the past. The author of the article makes the point that Christians are far more obsessed with Satan than the Jewish people are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2024 11:21AM by summer.

Recall also that the Book of Job is not Hebrew but was taken from the Zoroastrians during the Exile when both peoples’ elites were captive in Babylon.

The Hebrew Bible says Satan (the “adversary”) was banished from God’s presence from the War in Heaven forever onward. His meeting for a chat with God was therefore impossible in a Hebrew context.

Just one more of the myths that were thrown together in the hodgepodge that was Judeao-Christianity.

I like when "hodgepodge" gets used as a verb!

Such as, "Joseph Smith probably started hodgepodging mormomism even before the book of mormon was hodgepodged."

Or, "Joseph smith started hodgepodging his followers' wives long before D&C 132 was hodgepodged."

I think a more appropriate noun-conversion would be, "Joseph Smith pigeonholed as many members' wives as he could."

I think of all the "bad guys" Lilith got the worst rap. Adam annoyed God by bitching about her all the time so she got the boot and Eve got to be a doormat. In the end, even compliant Eve got crapped on.

Didn't your kind eat the forbidden fruit first?

Yes, the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Then Adam was such a weak, worthless man he chomped right down too. Even though Eve existed to be submissive to him. She must have been much bigger and stronger and forced him. (eye roll) Gods forbid that he take any responsibility. And that same BS dynamic exists today. If a woman is raped, it must have been because of something SHE did. Maybe, gasp, PORN SHOULDERS.

She was shit testing him. Lucky for Adam, he didn't have any competition in the dating market.

That's the story, handed down to us like a Grimm fairytale. Certainly in the church that's justification for women to be subservient.

Yes, women are smarter and you can't take it ;)

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think of all the "bad guys" Lilith got the worst
> rap. Adam annoyed God by bitching about her all
> the time so she got the boot and Eve got to be a
> doormat. In the end, even compliant Eve got
> crapped on.

Lilith is a much later story than the main Adam and Eve narrative. The name means screech owl in Semitic languages and she is basically a succubus/night demon.

That’s a pretty bad rap.

Lilith, meaning "belonging to the night," comes from the Akkadian word lilîtu, the feminine form of a word meaning "demon" or "spirit." In Mesopotamian and Jewish mythology, Lilith was the first wife of Adam who was ultimately banished from the Garden of Eden for her disobedience.


In rabbinic literature Lilith is variously depicted as the mother of Adam's demonic offspring following his separation from Eve or as his first wife. Whereas Eve was created from Adam's rib (Genesis 2:22), some accounts hold that Lilith was the woman implied in Genesis 1:27 and was made from the same soil as Adam.


https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Projects/Reln91/Power/lilith.htm

And since it is all made up, it doesn't really matter but is another cultural example of women getting the blame and the crap end of the stick.

I saw a meme about Lucifer the other day, comparing the pop culture version and the Christian one.

I'll try and summarize it.

Pop Culture Lucifer
* misunderstood tragic figure (God is the real meanie)
* a kind of god
* holder of forbidden knowledge
* King of Hell (which is equal to Heaven)
* either a lovable quirky handsome antihero or a formidable monster.

Biblical Lucifer
* doesn't even get a chance to fight Jesus and is defeated by Archangel Michael.
* spends all day trying to tempt people because that's all he can do.
* a whole legion of his followers (1000) jumped off a cliff and committed suicide after meeting Jesus
* is the prince of this world even though he knows this world will be destroyed.
* literally has no power over spirit-filled Christians
* not even the ruler of Hell, but just another prisoner there.
* the prophecy of his downfall is in the Bible but he is too proud to try and understand it.

For pop culture Lucifer I can't recommend the music cd, "I,Lucifer" by The Real Tuesday Weld highly enough. Fits no category really and meant as a Sound track to the book of the same name. Has songs like, "The Eternal Seduction of Eve", "The Pearly Gates", "Easter Parade" and "Heaven Can't Wait". For me it's musically sublime and the Lyrics cut like a fine cake server.

Well this was fun. I tried praying to Lucifer and had bad dreams. Woke up and told him to forget it, I'd be sticking with Jesus. Went back to sleep and had good dreams.

Meh, I guess some people can't be friends.

Per the basic LDS theology of "Lucifer wanted everyone to go to heaven, Jesus wanted us to have choices and make correct decisions" the modern Mormon church is a bit more like Lucifer's Plan.

Which doesn't give me warm vibes toward him.

;^)

Just sayin
RG

Very true.

A religion that de-emphasizes "free agency," and instead interprets "agency" as meaning that deviance in any way will be punished, cannot reasonably claim to value individual moral autonomy.

It is pure Dostoevsky: a religion that knows better than Jesus, a church that finds dictatorship more efficient, a leadership that wants Jesus to keep out of the way.

Lucifer won the War in Heaven.

    If the parents of 'under-the-age-of-eight' kids throw them out of a 10th floor window of the Hotel Utah, would they be their kids' personal saviors?  

This is the literary equivalent of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and of as much value.