Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Remember those old movies where the witch doctor or shaman gets the chief to burn the scientists trying to vaccinate the natives?
It would be funny if it wasn't so deadly serious.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/03/florida-measles-outbreak-preventable
Shortly before Joseph Ladapo was sworn in as Florida’s surgeon general in 2022, the New Yorker ran a short column welcoming the vaccine-skeptic doctor to his new role, and highlighting his advocacy for the use of leeches in public health.
It was satire of course, a teasing of the Harvard-educated physician for his unorthodox medical views, which include a steadfast belief that life-saving Covid shots are the work of the devil, and that opening a window is the preferred treatment for the inhalation of toxic fumes from gas stoves
But now, with an entirely preventable outbreak of measles spreading across Florida, medical experts are questioning if quackery really has become official health policy in the nation’s third most-populous state.
As the highly contagious disease raged in a Broward county elementary school, Ladapo, a politically appointed acolyte of Florida’s far-right governor Ron DeSantis, wrote to parents telling them it was perfectly fine for parents to continue to send in their unvaccinated children.
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https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/01/11/fla-surgeon-gen-ladapo-says-covid-vax-antichrist-of-all-products/72174068007/
Holy hell! Florida Surgeon General goes "Antichrist" on COVID vaccines
"The Florida doctor didn’t only say that he thought COVID-19 vaccines weren’t a good idea medically. He said they were the work of the Devil.
Seriously.
Ladapo called COVID vaccines ‘the Antichrist of all products” and said that they were showing “disrespect” to the human genome, “and that is our connection to God.”
This is groundbreaking quackery. We’ve left the world of fringe, discredited medicine here, and entered the world of fringe, dirt-road theology.
The idea that COVID-19 vaccines are the work of the Devil isn’t something Ladapo just dreamed up on Bannon’s show. While the leaders of mainstream Christianity have urged their followers to get vaccinated, a small contingent of Christian anti-vaxxers have used the Bible to make a ridiculous argument against getting inoculated.
They claim the vaccine is “the mark of the beast,” as prophesied in the Bible’s Book of Revelation.
That passage of the New Testament says that the Antichrist will come back to Earth and rule for a short time. During that time, all the Devil’s people will be identified through “the mark of the beast.” When Christ returns to vanquish the Antichrist, only those who had previously refused the mark of the beast would be allowed in heaven, the story goes."
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It would be funny if it wasn't so deadly serious.
###########
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/03/florida-measles-outbreak-preventable
Shortly before Joseph Ladapo was sworn in as Florida’s surgeon general in 2022, the New Yorker ran a short column welcoming the vaccine-skeptic doctor to his new role, and highlighting his advocacy for the use of leeches in public health.
It was satire of course, a teasing of the Harvard-educated physician for his unorthodox medical views, which include a steadfast belief that life-saving Covid shots are the work of the devil, and that opening a window is the preferred treatment for the inhalation of toxic fumes from gas stoves
But now, with an entirely preventable outbreak of measles spreading across Florida, medical experts are questioning if quackery really has become official health policy in the nation’s third most-populous state.
As the highly contagious disease raged in a Broward county elementary school, Ladapo, a politically appointed acolyte of Florida’s far-right governor Ron DeSantis, wrote to parents telling them it was perfectly fine for parents to continue to send in their unvaccinated children.
###########
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/01/11/fla-surgeon-gen-ladapo-says-covid-vax-antichrist-of-all-products/72174068007/
Holy hell! Florida Surgeon General goes "Antichrist" on COVID vaccines
"The Florida doctor didn’t only say that he thought COVID-19 vaccines weren’t a good idea medically. He said they were the work of the Devil.
Seriously.
Ladapo called COVID vaccines ‘the Antichrist of all products” and said that they were showing “disrespect” to the human genome, “and that is our connection to God.”
This is groundbreaking quackery. We’ve left the world of fringe, discredited medicine here, and entered the world of fringe, dirt-road theology.
The idea that COVID-19 vaccines are the work of the Devil isn’t something Ladapo just dreamed up on Bannon’s show. While the leaders of mainstream Christianity have urged their followers to get vaccinated, a small contingent of Christian anti-vaxxers have used the Bible to make a ridiculous argument against getting inoculated.
They claim the vaccine is “the mark of the beast,” as prophesied in the Bible’s Book of Revelation.
That passage of the New Testament says that the Antichrist will come back to Earth and rule for a short time. During that time, all the Devil’s people will be identified through “the mark of the beast.” When Christ returns to vanquish the Antichrist, only those who had previously refused the mark of the beast would be allowed in heaven, the story goes."
###########
Some people have to find out the hard way. It's like the people who packed the churches tight during the pandemic. How well did that work out for them? God must not have heeded their prayers.
My Greatest Generation parents were so grateful for the vaccines. They saw first hand what serious disease did to their families, friends, and neighbors. They saw what happened when Polio was rampant. I guess some people need to see for themselves.
My Greatest Generation parents were so grateful for the vaccines. They saw first hand what serious disease did to their families, friends, and neighbors. They saw what happened when Polio was rampant. I guess some people need to see for themselves.
That’s a sad truth. My mother got us vaccinated for everything. She worked the polio epidemic as a nurse.
Forget finding out the hard way, some people never learn.
For (anti?)Christ's sake, the man's been to medical school.
For (anti?)Christ's sake, the man's been to medical school.
My parents were the last generation where it was common to have several children die before reaching adulthood. MY PARENTs - not my grand parents. One of my grandmothers, born 1890, had 6 children, 2 died in infancy. My other grandmother had 12 (yes, the Mormon side of the family, but also rural southern), 2 of which died in infancy and 2 more died in young adulthood.
So, each side of my family lost one third of their children, mostly to childhood diseases. one to a heart defect. This was around 1920.
I remember polio wards, iron lungs, and kids wearing steel leg braces. My father and grandmother both had polio. He recovered except for an almost imperceptible limp. She lost the use of her left arm. Incidentally, Joni Mitchell had polio, which weakened her left hand. She famously retuned her guitar to make the jazzy chords she liked to use easier to play, not out of cleverness, but out of necessity.
Go to a cemetery that dates back to the 1800s, and see how many children are buried there. The average lifespan in the US went from around 40 at the time of the Civil War (1860) to the 60s by 1950. Clear back to Roman times, if a person made it into their 20s, there was a fair to middling chance they would make it into their 60s, possibly beyond. Having infants die really pulls the average lifespan way down.
The reason for the big jump in lifespan around the beginning of the 20th century? Vaccines against childhood diseases, and some that weren't just in childhood, like smallpox.
Most of the reason for the baby boom after WWII was that it was the first full generation, born in the 19-teens and twenties, where most of the children survived and went on to have families of their own. This was especially true in North America, where there was less decimation of the population than in Europe because of WWII. Third world countries and Europe had their baby booms a generation later when public health measures (vaccination, primarily) reached third world countries, and the population rebounded in Europe.
The 1970s saw the fastest percentage population increase the world has ever seen, and probably ever will see again, thanks to development of effective contraceptives. The reason for the huge spike then was that children survived in large numbers, and that was mostly due to immunizations.
Until now. Nobody dies from measles now. We don't need no stinking' immunizations.
:-/
So, each side of my family lost one third of their children, mostly to childhood diseases. one to a heart defect. This was around 1920.
I remember polio wards, iron lungs, and kids wearing steel leg braces. My father and grandmother both had polio. He recovered except for an almost imperceptible limp. She lost the use of her left arm. Incidentally, Joni Mitchell had polio, which weakened her left hand. She famously retuned her guitar to make the jazzy chords she liked to use easier to play, not out of cleverness, but out of necessity.
Go to a cemetery that dates back to the 1800s, and see how many children are buried there. The average lifespan in the US went from around 40 at the time of the Civil War (1860) to the 60s by 1950. Clear back to Roman times, if a person made it into their 20s, there was a fair to middling chance they would make it into their 60s, possibly beyond. Having infants die really pulls the average lifespan way down.
The reason for the big jump in lifespan around the beginning of the 20th century? Vaccines against childhood diseases, and some that weren't just in childhood, like smallpox.
Most of the reason for the baby boom after WWII was that it was the first full generation, born in the 19-teens and twenties, where most of the children survived and went on to have families of their own. This was especially true in North America, where there was less decimation of the population than in Europe because of WWII. Third world countries and Europe had their baby booms a generation later when public health measures (vaccination, primarily) reached third world countries, and the population rebounded in Europe.
The 1970s saw the fastest percentage population increase the world has ever seen, and probably ever will see again, thanks to development of effective contraceptives. The reason for the huge spike then was that children survived in large numbers, and that was mostly due to immunizations.
Until now. Nobody dies from measles now. We don't need no stinking' immunizations.
:-/
Yes, both my older brother and myself, being Boomers, were the first generation in our families that could reasonably expect to survive to grow up.
My parents told me what polio was like -- the hospitals, the iron lungs, etc. Apparently the summer before the first vaccine came out was particularly bad. They did discuss if my brother should get one of the early vaccines, but in the end, it was a no-brainer. Risking getting polio was the far scarier option. My brother and I both grew up without any real fear of getting a serious, contagious disease.
And now, measles. Measles can kill. Some poor parents may very well find that out, first hand.
My parents told me what polio was like -- the hospitals, the iron lungs, etc. Apparently the summer before the first vaccine came out was particularly bad. They did discuss if my brother should get one of the early vaccines, but in the end, it was a no-brainer. Risking getting polio was the far scarier option. My brother and I both grew up without any real fear of getting a serious, contagious disease.
And now, measles. Measles can kill. Some poor parents may very well find that out, first hand.
True. My mom lost an infant. My grandparents lost several. A family member struggled with polio.
I have a scar from my small pox vac as a child. Sometimes I wish my children could have had that vaccine too. I know the virus is being stored certain places. What could possibly go wrong?
I have one relative who had mumps as a child and infertility resulted.
When I was a kid, they didn't have all the vaccines and my parents weren't all that bright. I had mumps, measles, chicken pox and scarlet fever. I was one of the lucky ones. Thankfully my children didn't suffer with them.
I have a scar from my small pox vac as a child. Sometimes I wish my children could have had that vaccine too. I know the virus is being stored certain places. What could possibly go wrong?
I have one relative who had mumps as a child and infertility resulted.
When I was a kid, they didn't have all the vaccines and my parents weren't all that bright. I had mumps, measles, chicken pox and scarlet fever. I was one of the lucky ones. Thankfully my children didn't suffer with them.
I remember those small pox scars. I used to see them when I was growing up. They were dime-sized depressions in the skin of the upper arm. For whatever reason, I did not scar. Not sure why. Perhaps it was a different vaccine, or it was deemed no longer necessary?
I also date from pre-vaccine times. I had mumps at about age 9, and it left me profoundly deaf in one ear. I was told at the time that it could have taken all my hearing.
I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on sugar cubes at the ‘Healthmobile’.
I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on sugar cubes at the ‘Healthmobile’.
Yes, I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on sugar cubes as well. They gave it out at school. And this time around, schools in my area gave out the Covid vaccine to anyone who wanted it as well.
I had the polio vaccine on sugar cubes, a drink and a shot. We were enrolled in the trials. One disease I’m sure I’ll never get.
The Covid vaccine is not the measles vaccine. However, the Covid vaccine debacle destroyed public trust in all vaccines among a large chunk of the population.
Even though the measles vaccine is safe and effective. Nobody has "died suddenly" from getting it.
Even though the measles vaccine is safe and effective. Nobody has "died suddenly" from getting it.
There was no Covid vaccine debacle. The mRNA technology had been around for decades by the time the Covid vaccine was developed. Scientists were solidly behind it.
The anti-vaxers were around long before the Covid vaccine, although the Covid vaccine gave fuel to their irrationality. I think it goes back to the (false) "vaccines cause autism" scare.
The anti-vaxers were around long before the Covid vaccine, although the Covid vaccine gave fuel to their irrationality. I think it goes back to the (false) "vaccines cause autism" scare.
“Misinformation is a major obstacle in a health crisis. Faith communities can debunk rumors, calm fears, and facilitate accurate information,.. Many will be fearful of vaccines. Religious leaders can be helpful in the fight against the coronavirus.”
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/10/14/21514610/elder-david-a-bednar-apostle-speaks-covid-19-response-g-20-interfaith-forum-riyadh-saudi-arabia/
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/10/14/21514610/elder-david-a-bednar-apostle-speaks-covid-19-response-g-20-interfaith-forum-riyadh-saudi-arabia/
Good grief, bradley.
There have always been some reactions to vaccines, and the covid vaccine wasn't that bad.
The reason people say things like what you did, is because they heard loud voices that repeated a partial truth.
If I were to say a lot of people "died suddenly" because they didn't have the COVID vaccine, how do you think that would compare in numbers to the side effects? Nothing is risk free. Look at the benefits and how they compare to the risks. You are doing exactly what caused the measles problem.
There have always been some reactions to vaccines, and the covid vaccine wasn't that bad.
The reason people say things like what you did, is because they heard loud voices that repeated a partial truth.
If I were to say a lot of people "died suddenly" because they didn't have the COVID vaccine, how do you think that would compare in numbers to the side effects? Nothing is risk free. Look at the benefits and how they compare to the risks. You are doing exactly what caused the measles problem.
Agreed. The CV vaccine was successful in preventing disease, hospitalization and death, which are the primary goals of vaxxes.
Yes, some people do experience complications and some, sadly, succumb to the disease despite precautions. For the vast majority it's a favourable outcome which is not assured if one forgoes the vax and suffers the disease, as the recent pandemic amply demonstrated.
Smallpox vax is not routine any more but is required if travelling to certain areas. I favour the vaccine over the disease any day.
Yes, some people do experience complications and some, sadly, succumb to the disease despite precautions. For the vast majority it's a favourable outcome which is not assured if one forgoes the vax and suffers the disease, as the recent pandemic amply demonstrated.
Smallpox vax is not routine any more but is required if travelling to certain areas. I favour the vaccine over the disease any day.
Dude, no one had their testicles explode either. Despite what one (realllllly) stupid "singer" said.
Susan I/S Wrote:
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> Dude, no one had their testicles explode either.
> Despite what one (realllllly) stupid "singer"
> said.
Eek. Made me cringe and I'm female. Yow.
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> Dude, no one had their testicles explode either.
> Despite what one (realllllly) stupid "singer"
> said.
Eek. Made me cringe and I'm female. Yow.
LOL, I actually went back and edited that before I hit send because I knew you would read it :)
Ask that Florida dude for hie comments regarding the Salk polio vaccine; Was that also ‘of Stan’?
"a small contingent of Christian anti-vaxxers have used the Bible to make a ridiculous argument against getting inoculated. They claim the vaccine is 'the mark of the beast,' as prophesied in the Bible's Book of Revelation. That passage of the New Testament says that the Antichrist will come back to Earth and rule for a short time. During that time, all the Devil's people will be identified through 'the mark of the beast.' When Christ returns to vanquish the Antichrist, only those who had previously refused the mark of the beast would be allowed in heaven"
These christian revengelicals don't even understand their own eschatology. Virtually all of them believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Problem is, the mark of the beast is a mid-tribulation event. If the vaccine (by their reckoning) is the beast's tramp stamp, then the rapture has already happened and they have been Left Behind, to use their phrase. They're not the good christians they claim to be according to their own loudly professed beliefs. That's how stupid they are.
These christian revengelicals don't even understand their own eschatology. Virtually all of them believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Problem is, the mark of the beast is a mid-tribulation event. If the vaccine (by their reckoning) is the beast's tramp stamp, then the rapture has already happened and they have been Left Behind, to use their phrase. They're not the good christians they claim to be according to their own loudly professed beliefs. That's how stupid they are.
came out, but my brother brought them all home from school and then my sister and I would get it. I remember us laying on the couch watching TV.
I did get the small pox vaccine. The scab got torn off by my sister just while we were playing and I have a bump there.
Polio we went to the high school to get it. The whole family.
A good friend of mine had a sister who got polio when she went swimming with some friends in the LaGoon pool/pools. She was wheelchair/bed bound and my friend took care of her for years. She was there when she died and she felt she didn't help her die correctly. I would bet she still feels guilty about that.
And then I had the twins. They didn't have the chickenpox vaccine yet or they only used on kids with cancer, etc. The chickenpox was HORRIBLE. My kids had so many pox marks--their bodies were just covered all over. My daughter got it first and just as she was over the worst part, my son got it, and I got sick, but not with the pox. My doctor told me that often happens in this situation. I slept in the recliner every night with one of them laying on me. It was HELL! And after that, i wonder why people don't get their kids vaccinated. My daughter has scars on her face, just a few, and my son has them on the top of his head. They were in kindergarten when they got it. Over Christmas no less.
So I got the covid and I got the infusion. Monoclonal antibodies. I had COVID when I got the antibodies. Ex brought it home. The members of my family who haven't had it before have had it recently. They were vaccinated.
I just remembered my daughter cried herself a hernia when she had chickenpox. She made me put neosporin on each pock. She'd stand there and cry.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2024 08:12PM by cl2.
I did get the small pox vaccine. The scab got torn off by my sister just while we were playing and I have a bump there.
Polio we went to the high school to get it. The whole family.
A good friend of mine had a sister who got polio when she went swimming with some friends in the LaGoon pool/pools. She was wheelchair/bed bound and my friend took care of her for years. She was there when she died and she felt she didn't help her die correctly. I would bet she still feels guilty about that.
And then I had the twins. They didn't have the chickenpox vaccine yet or they only used on kids with cancer, etc. The chickenpox was HORRIBLE. My kids had so many pox marks--their bodies were just covered all over. My daughter got it first and just as she was over the worst part, my son got it, and I got sick, but not with the pox. My doctor told me that often happens in this situation. I slept in the recliner every night with one of them laying on me. It was HELL! And after that, i wonder why people don't get their kids vaccinated. My daughter has scars on her face, just a few, and my son has them on the top of his head. They were in kindergarten when they got it. Over Christmas no less.
So I got the covid and I got the infusion. Monoclonal antibodies. I had COVID when I got the antibodies. Ex brought it home. The members of my family who haven't had it before have had it recently. They were vaccinated.
I just remembered my daughter cried herself a hernia when she had chickenpox. She made me put neosporin on each pock. She'd stand there and cry.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2024 08:12PM by cl2.
Strikes me that instead of anti-vax paranoia, people could choose to get a hobby, or find a role to serve in the community.
Just saying.
Just saying.
My hobby is getting 10% off coupons from Safeway Pharmacy by getting their 'free' flu and covid vaccinations once a month!!
Ha!
I have always been pro-vaccination. I still am however the COVID vaccine became so political that I am now skeptical of many vaccines. When information, even incorrect information is suppressed there is a problem. The way to fight a lie is with truth, not with censorship. TSCC uses censorship to fight true info that they don't like. The CDC did the same, they censored negative info related to the Covid vaccine. Why? Why didn't they just inundate us with the truth. Why did people get their children vaccinated for Covid? Unless they have significant co-morbidities then they are not at risk. My father-in-law contracted Covid prior to the vaccine being available and had no problems. He was then vaccinated. Why? Natural immunity is much more effective than vaccinated immunity. Studies in Israel showed natural immunity is more than 10X more effective. The vaccination put my father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never fully recovered.
Sounds like you're an expert. My recommendation is to never get any vaccine because the decision will be political for a while.
??
Lurker 1 Wrote:
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> I have always been pro-vaccination. I still am
> however the COVID vaccine became so political that
> I am now skeptical of many vaccines.
I understand how what all happened brought many questions to mind. However, because the CV vax became political in some quarters wouldn't convince me to reject that vaccine or any other. I would check out the most reliable sources (i.e. from reputable medical personnel or institutions) as well as consulting with my physician as/when appropriate.
> when information, even incorrect information is
> suppressed there is a problem. The way to fight a
> lie is with truth, not with censorship.
Absolutely. Issues do arise, though, if there is a flood of "information" from a variety of sources, not all of them reliable, especially in urgent circumstances. If people could take the time, have the patience, and the ability/knowledge to check sources and understand all the info and then make the wisest choices things would go better for everyone. It's not always the case though is it? For a variety of reasons.
I guess too that it depends on one's definition of 'censorship'. The sources I utilized through the worst of the pandemic discussed both the questions/protests about the vaccines and provided reliable information as answers and advice re the best way to proceed. People could hear the advice to be vaccinated but then heard the opposite from different sources. It becomes an issue of an individual having to choose which source to them is the one best heeded. Sometimes the choices aren't always clear. Plus, if people have ulterior motives, they can easily find a way to manipulate people who trust them (even if such trust is not deserved).
> TSCC uses
> censorship to fight true info that they don't
> like. The CDC did the same, they censored
> negative info related to the Covid vaccine.
I don't know if this was ever proven to be the case or if it is a misunderstanding, at best, by those opposed, for whatever reason, to "the government" or the CDC or what-or-whoever.
I believe totally in learning from experiences, negative or positive, but I try not to lose trust altogether in every aspect of life. Rather, asking questions, doing research, getting input from people who've earned trust and especially those with education and knowledge in the appropriate fields for what the subject under discussion is would seem to be a good and complete approach, especially if the situation at hand is vital, as certainly one's health and well-being are.
FWIW, I heard from the beginning that there were some known side effects with all the CV vaccines. I didn't feel blindsided at all when I experienced some of them.
> Why did people get their children vaccinated for
> Covid? Unless they have significant
> co-morbidities then they are not at risk.
I'm not an expert. But I don't think that is correct. Certainly, having comorbidities presents a greater risk of experiencing side effects. However, previously healthy children also suffered significant morbidity if they contracted CV. If that were not the case I doubt that physicians all over the world would have recommended the vaccine as a significant preventive measure.
> My father-in-law contracted Covid prior to the
> vaccine being available and had no problems. He
> was then vaccinated. Why? Natural immunity is
> much more effective than vaccinated immunity.
> Studies in Israel showed natural immunity is more
> than 10X more effective. The vaccination put my
> father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never
> fully recovered.
Again, not an expert here but first, 'natural immunity' only occurs if one has been infected with the disease. Therefore, no-one would have 'natural immunity' to Covid as it was a new virus. Nobody had had it before so no natural immunity would exist at the start of the pandemic. Your FIL would have a degree of natural immunity from having had Covid, as you say. However, unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily bestow lifelong immunity. In particular, with this virus many people contracted it several times, perhaps at least partly due to the fact that the thing kept mutating, enabling itself to re-infect us over again.
Bottom Line: I'm all for explanations being given about the status at any point in this long, long, long pandemic experience of ours. The problem with having unchecked misinformation blasted out into the universe is that it metastasizes, "infecting" people with falsehoods and it's impossible to get them to unhear it or for officials/experts to cram it back under the blanket.
I don't know what the answer is on that one. Other than perhaps to advise, and hope, and even expect (FWIW) that people pay attention, check their sources and try their best to adhere to the best recommendations that true science can offer.
I'm sorry for your FIL's troubles. I hope things improve.
Mostly I just wanted to say that natural immunity isn't always the be-all, end-all and isn't always your greatest protection in every case, depending on which disease organism you're fighting off. Besides, for many diseases it isn't lifelong, unfortunately.
Measles apparently does bestow lifelong natural immunity if you've actually been infected or at least that was the advice last time I looked. Good thing too as it's reared its red self recently again too.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have always been pro-vaccination. I still am
> however the COVID vaccine became so political that
> I am now skeptical of many vaccines.
I understand how what all happened brought many questions to mind. However, because the CV vax became political in some quarters wouldn't convince me to reject that vaccine or any other. I would check out the most reliable sources (i.e. from reputable medical personnel or institutions) as well as consulting with my physician as/when appropriate.
> when information, even incorrect information is
> suppressed there is a problem. The way to fight a
> lie is with truth, not with censorship.
Absolutely. Issues do arise, though, if there is a flood of "information" from a variety of sources, not all of them reliable, especially in urgent circumstances. If people could take the time, have the patience, and the ability/knowledge to check sources and understand all the info and then make the wisest choices things would go better for everyone. It's not always the case though is it? For a variety of reasons.
I guess too that it depends on one's definition of 'censorship'. The sources I utilized through the worst of the pandemic discussed both the questions/protests about the vaccines and provided reliable information as answers and advice re the best way to proceed. People could hear the advice to be vaccinated but then heard the opposite from different sources. It becomes an issue of an individual having to choose which source to them is the one best heeded. Sometimes the choices aren't always clear. Plus, if people have ulterior motives, they can easily find a way to manipulate people who trust them (even if such trust is not deserved).
> TSCC uses
> censorship to fight true info that they don't
> like. The CDC did the same, they censored
> negative info related to the Covid vaccine.
I don't know if this was ever proven to be the case or if it is a misunderstanding, at best, by those opposed, for whatever reason, to "the government" or the CDC or what-or-whoever.
I believe totally in learning from experiences, negative or positive, but I try not to lose trust altogether in every aspect of life. Rather, asking questions, doing research, getting input from people who've earned trust and especially those with education and knowledge in the appropriate fields for what the subject under discussion is would seem to be a good and complete approach, especially if the situation at hand is vital, as certainly one's health and well-being are.
FWIW, I heard from the beginning that there were some known side effects with all the CV vaccines. I didn't feel blindsided at all when I experienced some of them.
> Why did people get their children vaccinated for
> Covid? Unless they have significant
> co-morbidities then they are not at risk.
I'm not an expert. But I don't think that is correct. Certainly, having comorbidities presents a greater risk of experiencing side effects. However, previously healthy children also suffered significant morbidity if they contracted CV. If that were not the case I doubt that physicians all over the world would have recommended the vaccine as a significant preventive measure.
> My father-in-law contracted Covid prior to the
> vaccine being available and had no problems. He
> was then vaccinated. Why? Natural immunity is
> much more effective than vaccinated immunity.
> Studies in Israel showed natural immunity is more
> than 10X more effective. The vaccination put my
> father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never
> fully recovered.
Again, not an expert here but first, 'natural immunity' only occurs if one has been infected with the disease. Therefore, no-one would have 'natural immunity' to Covid as it was a new virus. Nobody had had it before so no natural immunity would exist at the start of the pandemic. Your FIL would have a degree of natural immunity from having had Covid, as you say. However, unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily bestow lifelong immunity. In particular, with this virus many people contracted it several times, perhaps at least partly due to the fact that the thing kept mutating, enabling itself to re-infect us over again.
Bottom Line: I'm all for explanations being given about the status at any point in this long, long, long pandemic experience of ours. The problem with having unchecked misinformation blasted out into the universe is that it metastasizes, "infecting" people with falsehoods and it's impossible to get them to unhear it or for officials/experts to cram it back under the blanket.
I don't know what the answer is on that one. Other than perhaps to advise, and hope, and even expect (FWIW) that people pay attention, check their sources and try their best to adhere to the best recommendations that true science can offer.
I'm sorry for your FIL's troubles. I hope things improve.
Mostly I just wanted to say that natural immunity isn't always the be-all, end-all and isn't always your greatest protection in every case, depending on which disease organism you're fighting off. Besides, for many diseases it isn't lifelong, unfortunately.
Measles apparently does bestow lifelong natural immunity if you've actually been infected or at least that was the advice last time I looked. Good thing too as it's reared its red self recently again too.
I see Nightingale has already posted a long response. I would have beaten her to the punch, except for the search for a "banned" word. Herewith my three dollars and two cents-worth.
>The CDC did the same, they censored negative info related to the Covid vaccine.
Specifically, what and when?
>Why did people get their children vaccinated for Covid?
Some people just don't pay attention. That's why they ask for antibiotics when they have a viral infection. Also, initially, we didn't know that children were largely safe from severe covid. That is typically not the case with many other viral diseases. Specifically, influenza and RSV can be dangerous for children. Covid doesn't follow that pattern. We know that now. We didn't know that at first.
>My father-in-law contracted Covid prior to the vaccine being available and had no problems.
The vast majority of people who contract covid basically have what appears to be a bad cold. The same was also true of polio. In both cases, a small but significant minority experienced very serious symptoms or death.
>Natural immunity is much more effective than vaccinated immunity.
That's simply not true. And I have no idea what "10x more effective" could even be defined. Ten times better in what sense?
Neither natural nor vaccination immunity is very good long term (say more than 9 months or so). In that, it is very similar to flu immunity. I know several people who have had covid 3 times now. Unlike flu shots, the covid shots have proven to be surprisingly effective at reducing severity of even mutated covid strains.
Most people now have some immunity from either shots or infection or both. There are two antiviral drugs that are reasonably effective at reducing symptoms. And don't forget, even for people with no immunity and no drug treatment, for a large majority of them, covid is a bad cold. Those people will survive, regardless.
>The vaccination put my father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never fully recovered.
If it is true that the vaccination (and not something else) put him in the hospital, then he had very bad luck, but that is possible. It is rather like someone who was killed because they were wearing a seatbelt. That happens now and then, but had they not been wearing their seatbelt, it is likely they would have died instantly in that crash, and it is still far safer to be wearing a seatbelt than not, regardless of the odd incidents when the seatbelt was the cause of a fatality in an accident.
I remember the two times when the vaccine distribution paused because of side effects, to see how common and dangerous they were. One was an unusual form of blood clotting in adult, pre-menopausal women, where the normal treatment for blood clots actually made this particular form of clotting worse. The incidence of this was down literally in the "one in a million doses" range, and there is an effective treatment for that form of clotting. Doctors were warned to be aware of it, and to ask a woman's covid vaccination status when dealing with blood clots.
The other was mild heart infection in young males, also treatable, and also in the one in a million range.
And yes, the vaccine can cause all the same symptoms as covid (like guillain-barre, chronic fatigue, neuropathy, etc), which is true of all vaccines as far as I am aware. The symptoms tend to be milder and far less frequent than the same symptoms caused by an actual covid infection,
Lastly, anecdotes of "athletes dropping dead for 'no reason' after being vaccinated" tell you nothing unless you have statistics for how many athletes drop dead 'for no reason' who have not been vaccinated. 7,000 people a day die in the US. Most of those people are over 65. No surprise there. The people most likely to get the covid vaccine are people over 65 and people with compromised immune systems in one form or another. So yeah, some of those people who get vaccinated die within two weeks after getting vaccinated. And some percentage of that same cohort who are not vaccinated die within a two week period. That is only significant if the two death rates are different.
This is a problem that requires real statistical analysis and highly trained actuaries to unsnarl, and the CDC has a large fistful of actuaries on staff for dealing with precisely this sort of problem.
Being an actuary is way beyond my skill set, but I know what it takes to be one, and I know that they get paid a grundle of money by insurance companies, and presumably the CDC. If I have a choice between believing them, or some rando on the internet, I'm going with the actuaries.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 01:21AM by Maude.
>The CDC did the same, they censored negative info related to the Covid vaccine.
Specifically, what and when?
>Why did people get their children vaccinated for Covid?
Some people just don't pay attention. That's why they ask for antibiotics when they have a viral infection. Also, initially, we didn't know that children were largely safe from severe covid. That is typically not the case with many other viral diseases. Specifically, influenza and RSV can be dangerous for children. Covid doesn't follow that pattern. We know that now. We didn't know that at first.
>My father-in-law contracted Covid prior to the vaccine being available and had no problems.
The vast majority of people who contract covid basically have what appears to be a bad cold. The same was also true of polio. In both cases, a small but significant minority experienced very serious symptoms or death.
>Natural immunity is much more effective than vaccinated immunity.
That's simply not true. And I have no idea what "10x more effective" could even be defined. Ten times better in what sense?
Neither natural nor vaccination immunity is very good long term (say more than 9 months or so). In that, it is very similar to flu immunity. I know several people who have had covid 3 times now. Unlike flu shots, the covid shots have proven to be surprisingly effective at reducing severity of even mutated covid strains.
Most people now have some immunity from either shots or infection or both. There are two antiviral drugs that are reasonably effective at reducing symptoms. And don't forget, even for people with no immunity and no drug treatment, for a large majority of them, covid is a bad cold. Those people will survive, regardless.
>The vaccination put my father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never fully recovered.
If it is true that the vaccination (and not something else) put him in the hospital, then he had very bad luck, but that is possible. It is rather like someone who was killed because they were wearing a seatbelt. That happens now and then, but had they not been wearing their seatbelt, it is likely they would have died instantly in that crash, and it is still far safer to be wearing a seatbelt than not, regardless of the odd incidents when the seatbelt was the cause of a fatality in an accident.
I remember the two times when the vaccine distribution paused because of side effects, to see how common and dangerous they were. One was an unusual form of blood clotting in adult, pre-menopausal women, where the normal treatment for blood clots actually made this particular form of clotting worse. The incidence of this was down literally in the "one in a million doses" range, and there is an effective treatment for that form of clotting. Doctors were warned to be aware of it, and to ask a woman's covid vaccination status when dealing with blood clots.
The other was mild heart infection in young males, also treatable, and also in the one in a million range.
And yes, the vaccine can cause all the same symptoms as covid (like guillain-barre, chronic fatigue, neuropathy, etc), which is true of all vaccines as far as I am aware. The symptoms tend to be milder and far less frequent than the same symptoms caused by an actual covid infection,
Lastly, anecdotes of "athletes dropping dead for 'no reason' after being vaccinated" tell you nothing unless you have statistics for how many athletes drop dead 'for no reason' who have not been vaccinated. 7,000 people a day die in the US. Most of those people are over 65. No surprise there. The people most likely to get the covid vaccine are people over 65 and people with compromised immune systems in one form or another. So yeah, some of those people who get vaccinated die within two weeks after getting vaccinated. And some percentage of that same cohort who are not vaccinated die within a two week period. That is only significant if the two death rates are different.
This is a problem that requires real statistical analysis and highly trained actuaries to unsnarl, and the CDC has a large fistful of actuaries on staff for dealing with precisely this sort of problem.
Being an actuary is way beyond my skill set, but I know what it takes to be one, and I know that they get paid a grundle of money by insurance companies, and presumably the CDC. If I have a choice between believing them, or some rando on the internet, I'm going with the actuaries.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 01:21AM by Maude.
>> Why did people get their children vaccinated for Covid?
I can answer that one. IMO, it was for two reasons. First, it was not so much for the benefit of the kids, as the adults around them (who also needed to be vaccinated.) In other words, it was a community health issue. Little kids have no sense of how to prevent disease. I've had kids sneeze in my face, have snot dripping from their nose and faces, and projectile vomit all over the tables, desks, and furniture (the latter happened in my classroom just yesterday, and it was so bad that it cleared the room.) Schools are disease trading posts. Kids bring viruses to school, exchange them with their educators and friends, and take them back home again.
During the pandemic, when schools were back in session, many of their working-class parents were taken out of commission by Covid. My school district had entire neighborhoods that were wiped out. Some of the kids' parents died.
IIRC, New York City had more than 70 teachers die during the pandemic. Depending on the teachers's specialty areas, it could take 2-3 years to replace them. As an example, my school district started off the year 50 teachers short in my specialty area. We were only recently able to hire 30 teachers, leaving 20 still short. And we will need an additional 30+ next year. There are not enough teachers, even with overseas hiring. Gosh, I wonder why?
Second, hospital-based nurses who worked during the pandemic will tell you that although there was a "type" to develop severe symptoms of Covid (male, 50+, overweight, with comorbidities, and unvaccinated,) the disease also inexplicably cut down others, including younger, healthy people. No one knows why. And if you can prevent that from happening, why wouldn't you?
During the pandemic, my school system vaccinated *anyone* who showed up -- students, parents, grandparents, etc. We were trying to help entire neighborhoods stay healthy.
And as for the measles, if enough people in the community don't get vaccinated, well...we will all see what happens.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 05:58AM by summer.
I can answer that one. IMO, it was for two reasons. First, it was not so much for the benefit of the kids, as the adults around them (who also needed to be vaccinated.) In other words, it was a community health issue. Little kids have no sense of how to prevent disease. I've had kids sneeze in my face, have snot dripping from their nose and faces, and projectile vomit all over the tables, desks, and furniture (the latter happened in my classroom just yesterday, and it was so bad that it cleared the room.) Schools are disease trading posts. Kids bring viruses to school, exchange them with their educators and friends, and take them back home again.
During the pandemic, when schools were back in session, many of their working-class parents were taken out of commission by Covid. My school district had entire neighborhoods that were wiped out. Some of the kids' parents died.
IIRC, New York City had more than 70 teachers die during the pandemic. Depending on the teachers's specialty areas, it could take 2-3 years to replace them. As an example, my school district started off the year 50 teachers short in my specialty area. We were only recently able to hire 30 teachers, leaving 20 still short. And we will need an additional 30+ next year. There are not enough teachers, even with overseas hiring. Gosh, I wonder why?
Second, hospital-based nurses who worked during the pandemic will tell you that although there was a "type" to develop severe symptoms of Covid (male, 50+, overweight, with comorbidities, and unvaccinated,) the disease also inexplicably cut down others, including younger, healthy people. No one knows why. And if you can prevent that from happening, why wouldn't you?
During the pandemic, my school system vaccinated *anyone* who showed up -- students, parents, grandparents, etc. We were trying to help entire neighborhoods stay healthy.
And as for the measles, if enough people in the community don't get vaccinated, well...we will all see what happens.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 05:58AM by summer.
>Studies in Israel showed natural immunity is more than 10X more effective
As is often the case, reality is more complicated.
First, the Israeli study had a follow-up period of only three months (June-August 2021) for vaccinations/infections occurring 6 months prior.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
We know that immunity from either wanes with time. The Israeli study also states
"When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease."
So for longer periods, natural immunity may be stronger, but not 10 times.
What about longer timeframes? The difference seems to vanish according to this Italian study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10198735/
"Results
Overall, 19,418 1:1:1 risk-sets were included. After 9 months of follow-up, the cumulative risk of new SARS-CoV-2 infection was 21.8%, 22.0%, and 25.9%, respectively, among exposed to natural immunity, vaccine-induced immunity and unexposed."
Second, it theoretically could depend on the strain. The Israeli study was conducted when delta was the predominant strain. Now omicron is the dominant strain. According to the Italian study, there i also no difference when comparing the two for omicron infections.
See Table 1 in that study and "Finally, consistently with the main analysis, an equivalent protection conferred by natural and vaccine-induced immunity against infection was observed during both periods during which Delta or Omicron were the dominant variants." (from Discussion section)
Third, it appears that "hybrid immunity" - meaning vaccination after infection is superior to either alone.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/5/ofad161/7086603
"In conclusion, vaccination was significantly associated with lower risk of COVID-19 including in those with prior infection, although natural COVID-19 provided robust protection for several months. Vaccination should be encouraged regardless of prior infection as a strategy to boost protective immunity against emerging variants that may share protective epitopes with the vaccine being utilized."
Finally consider that natural immunity requires infection by Covid. The death rate from covid is much, much, much higher than the death rate from the covid vaccine.
And infection may increase the risk of autoantibody development
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/vaccination-has-a-lower-risk-of-autoantibody-development-than-natural-immunity/
"In 2021, a collaboration between Ring’s and Iwasaki’s labs made a major discovery that patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 develop diverse autoantibodies at a high rate. “This was a startling and extremely concerning development,” says Ring.
This gave us a lot of confidence that if autoantibodies do arise in some patients after vaccination, it must be rare,” says Ring. “And certainly, compared with infection, there is a drastic difference.”
"Ring says the new Yale study swings the pendulum back toward vaccination. “We showed that with vaccination, you get all the benefits of antiviral immunity without the autoantibody development,” he explains."
As is often the case, reality is more complicated.
First, the Israeli study had a follow-up period of only three months (June-August 2021) for vaccinations/infections occurring 6 months prior.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
We know that immunity from either wanes with time. The Israeli study also states
"When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease."
So for longer periods, natural immunity may be stronger, but not 10 times.
What about longer timeframes? The difference seems to vanish according to this Italian study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10198735/
"Results
Overall, 19,418 1:1:1 risk-sets were included. After 9 months of follow-up, the cumulative risk of new SARS-CoV-2 infection was 21.8%, 22.0%, and 25.9%, respectively, among exposed to natural immunity, vaccine-induced immunity and unexposed."
Second, it theoretically could depend on the strain. The Israeli study was conducted when delta was the predominant strain. Now omicron is the dominant strain. According to the Italian study, there i also no difference when comparing the two for omicron infections.
See Table 1 in that study and "Finally, consistently with the main analysis, an equivalent protection conferred by natural and vaccine-induced immunity against infection was observed during both periods during which Delta or Omicron were the dominant variants." (from Discussion section)
Third, it appears that "hybrid immunity" - meaning vaccination after infection is superior to either alone.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/5/ofad161/7086603
"In conclusion, vaccination was significantly associated with lower risk of COVID-19 including in those with prior infection, although natural COVID-19 provided robust protection for several months. Vaccination should be encouraged regardless of prior infection as a strategy to boost protective immunity against emerging variants that may share protective epitopes with the vaccine being utilized."
Finally consider that natural immunity requires infection by Covid. The death rate from covid is much, much, much higher than the death rate from the covid vaccine.
And infection may increase the risk of autoantibody development
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/vaccination-has-a-lower-risk-of-autoantibody-development-than-natural-immunity/
"In 2021, a collaboration between Ring’s and Iwasaki’s labs made a major discovery that patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 develop diverse autoantibodies at a high rate. “This was a startling and extremely concerning development,” says Ring.
This gave us a lot of confidence that if autoantibodies do arise in some patients after vaccination, it must be rare,” says Ring. “And certainly, compared with infection, there is a drastic difference.”
"Ring says the new Yale study swings the pendulum back toward vaccination. “We showed that with vaccination, you get all the benefits of antiviral immunity without the autoantibody development,” he explains."
>The vaccination put my father-in-law in the hospital, and he has never fully recovered.
I do feel sorry for your FIL.
However, there are 18 million Americans with long covid who haven't fully recovered either.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/survey-18-million-americans-say-they-have-long-covid
I do feel sorry for your FIL.
However, there are 18 million Americans with long covid who haven't fully recovered either.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/survey-18-million-americans-say-they-have-long-covid
Bingo. There's another side to the equation.
misplaced
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2024 07:32PM by Brother Of Jerry.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2024 07:32PM by Brother Of Jerry.
Get yer damn shots. Get yer kids and grans their damn shots.
Ahh Beth, you summed up the posts in a few words, perfect.
Ignorance will end us.
From a post on a nursing forum --
"So I work in the NICU [neonatal intensive care unit -- where the sick newborns go] and a few nights ago I precepted [trained/mentored] this nursing student who flat out said she doesn’t believe in vaccines and that she hasn’t gotten most shots because of religious exemption. She got hired into a NICU out of state….how can you not believe in the science that we practice? We had a baby with MEASLES and she had the gall to say 'This is crazy, I thought measles didn’t exist anymore!'”
It exists. Measles exists. Vaccines have helped to keep it at bay.
"So I work in the NICU [neonatal intensive care unit -- where the sick newborns go] and a few nights ago I precepted [trained/mentored] this nursing student who flat out said she doesn’t believe in vaccines and that she hasn’t gotten most shots because of religious exemption. She got hired into a NICU out of state….how can you not believe in the science that we practice? We had a baby with MEASLES and she had the gall to say 'This is crazy, I thought measles didn’t exist anymore!'”
It exists. Measles exists. Vaccines have helped to keep it at bay.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "So I work in the NICU and a few nights ago I
> precepted this nursing student who flat out said
> she doesn’t believe in vaccines and that she
> hasn’t gotten most shots because of religious
> exemption.
This wouldn't have been allowed when I was a student nurse. We certainly had to provide written proof (from reputable and check-able sources) that we were vaxxed to the max or we couldn't care for ill people (a major part of learning how to be a good nurse, obviously). How are you going to help people who are ill if you're germ-ridden yourself and pass on infection to your vulnerable charges (aka patients under your care).
> She got hired into a NICU out of
> state….how can you not believe in the science
> that we practice?
Good question.
> We had a baby with MEASLES and
> she had the gall to say 'This is crazy, I thought
> measles didn’t exist anymore!'”
Eek. Part of nursing education (you'd hope) is gaining awareness (if you don't already have it) about basic health matters in various areas and communities.
Many have the luxury of not seeing/knowing/thinking about communicable diseases because they live in areas where health care (including routine vaccination programs) exists.
From WHO (Nov 2023):
https://www.who.int/news/item/16-11-2023-global-measles-threat-continues-to-grow-as-another-year-passes-with-millions-of-children-unvaccinated
Excerpts:
"Following years of declines in measles vaccination coverage, measles cases in 2022 have increased by 18%, and deaths have increased by 43% globally (compared to 2021). This takes the estimated number of measles cases to 9 million and deaths to 136 000 – mostly among children – according to a new report from the World Health Organization (WHO) and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
"Measles continues to pose a relentlessly increasing threat to children. In 2022, 37 countries experienced large or disruptive measles outbreaks compared with 22 countries in 2021. Of the countries experiencing outbreaks, 28 were in the WHO Region for Africa, six in the Eastern Mediterranean, two in the South-East Asia, and one in the European Region.
“The increase in measles outbreaks and deaths is staggering, but unfortunately, not unexpected given the declining vaccination rates we’ve seen in the past few years,” said John Vertefeuille, director of CDC’s Global Immunization Division. “Measles cases anywhere pose a risk to all countries and communities where people are under-vaccinated. Urgent, targeted efforts are critical to prevent measles disease and deaths.”
"Measles is preventable with two doses of measles vaccine."
summer said:
> It exists. Measles exists. Vaccines have helped to
> keep it at bay.
Yes indeed.
I don't even understand a person who wants to become a nurse (1) not being reasonably aware about infectious/contagious diseases around the world as well as in their own communities and (2) not being required to have received all the standard routine vaccinations prior to interacting with sick folks.
And also apparently not having a close relationship with the most basic of scientific principles.
I can only hope that as she has now seen that measles indeed exists, contrary to her impression, she may revisit some of her other ideas (gleaned from who knows where) and get herself up to speed with basic scientific literacy in the nursing field.
And I hope that poor little baby recovers without complications from its unfortunate, and preventable, very nasty infection.
Just some of the potential side effects of a measles infection include ear infections, pneumonia and inflammation of the brain.
I'll take a potential little bit of a sore arm for a short while after a vaccination over the potential grave consequences of failure to vax.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2024 08:04PM by Nightingale.
-------------------------------------------------------
> "So I work in the NICU and a few nights ago I
> precepted this nursing student who flat out said
> she doesn’t believe in vaccines and that she
> hasn’t gotten most shots because of religious
> exemption.
This wouldn't have been allowed when I was a student nurse. We certainly had to provide written proof (from reputable and check-able sources) that we were vaxxed to the max or we couldn't care for ill people (a major part of learning how to be a good nurse, obviously). How are you going to help people who are ill if you're germ-ridden yourself and pass on infection to your vulnerable charges (aka patients under your care).
> She got hired into a NICU out of
> state….how can you not believe in the science
> that we practice?
Good question.
> We had a baby with MEASLES and
> she had the gall to say 'This is crazy, I thought
> measles didn’t exist anymore!'”
Eek. Part of nursing education (you'd hope) is gaining awareness (if you don't already have it) about basic health matters in various areas and communities.
Many have the luxury of not seeing/knowing/thinking about communicable diseases because they live in areas where health care (including routine vaccination programs) exists.
From WHO (Nov 2023):
https://www.who.int/news/item/16-11-2023-global-measles-threat-continues-to-grow-as-another-year-passes-with-millions-of-children-unvaccinated
Excerpts:
"Following years of declines in measles vaccination coverage, measles cases in 2022 have increased by 18%, and deaths have increased by 43% globally (compared to 2021). This takes the estimated number of measles cases to 9 million and deaths to 136 000 – mostly among children – according to a new report from the World Health Organization (WHO) and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
"Measles continues to pose a relentlessly increasing threat to children. In 2022, 37 countries experienced large or disruptive measles outbreaks compared with 22 countries in 2021. Of the countries experiencing outbreaks, 28 were in the WHO Region for Africa, six in the Eastern Mediterranean, two in the South-East Asia, and one in the European Region.
“The increase in measles outbreaks and deaths is staggering, but unfortunately, not unexpected given the declining vaccination rates we’ve seen in the past few years,” said John Vertefeuille, director of CDC’s Global Immunization Division. “Measles cases anywhere pose a risk to all countries and communities where people are under-vaccinated. Urgent, targeted efforts are critical to prevent measles disease and deaths.”
"Measles is preventable with two doses of measles vaccine."
summer said:
> It exists. Measles exists. Vaccines have helped to
> keep it at bay.
Yes indeed.
I don't even understand a person who wants to become a nurse (1) not being reasonably aware about infectious/contagious diseases around the world as well as in their own communities and (2) not being required to have received all the standard routine vaccinations prior to interacting with sick folks.
And also apparently not having a close relationship with the most basic of scientific principles.
I can only hope that as she has now seen that measles indeed exists, contrary to her impression, she may revisit some of her other ideas (gleaned from who knows where) and get herself up to speed with basic scientific literacy in the nursing field.
And I hope that poor little baby recovers without complications from its unfortunate, and preventable, very nasty infection.
Just some of the potential side effects of a measles infection include ear infections, pneumonia and inflammation of the brain.
I'll take a potential little bit of a sore arm for a short while after a vaccination over the potential grave consequences of failure to vax.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2024 08:04PM by Nightingale.
Apparently not much.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/06/health/covid-217-shots-hypervaccination-lancet/index.html
"One German man has redefined “man on a mission.” A 62-year-old from Magdeburg deliberately got 217 Covid-19 vaccine shots in the span of 29 months, according to a new study, going against national vaccine recommendations. That’s an average of one jab every four days.
n the process, he became a walking experiment for what happens to the immune system when it is vaccinated against the same pathogen repeatedly. A correspondence published Monday in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases outlined his case and concluded that while his “hypervaccination” did not result in any adverse health effects, it also did not significantly improve or worsen his immune response."
" The man did not report any vaccine-related side effects and has not had a Covid infection to date, as evidenced by repeated antigen and PCR testing between May 2022 and November 2023. The researchers caution that it’s not clear that his Covid status is directly because of his hypervaccination regimen.
“Perhaps he didn’t get Covid because he was well-protected in the first three doses of the vaccine,” Miller said. “We also don’t know anything about his behaviors.”
The actual report
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(24)00134-8/fulltext
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/06/health/covid-217-shots-hypervaccination-lancet/index.html
"One German man has redefined “man on a mission.” A 62-year-old from Magdeburg deliberately got 217 Covid-19 vaccine shots in the span of 29 months, according to a new study, going against national vaccine recommendations. That’s an average of one jab every four days.
n the process, he became a walking experiment for what happens to the immune system when it is vaccinated against the same pathogen repeatedly. A correspondence published Monday in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases outlined his case and concluded that while his “hypervaccination” did not result in any adverse health effects, it also did not significantly improve or worsen his immune response."
" The man did not report any vaccine-related side effects and has not had a Covid infection to date, as evidenced by repeated antigen and PCR testing between May 2022 and November 2023. The researchers caution that it’s not clear that his Covid status is directly because of his hypervaccination regimen.
“Perhaps he didn’t get Covid because he was well-protected in the first three doses of the vaccine,” Miller said. “We also don’t know anything about his behaviors.”
The actual report
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(24)00134-8/fulltext
According to chemistry, alcohol is a solution.
We have a large Calvinist Dutch population here in southern Alberta that actively preaches against vaccines, plus some of the Anabaptists (Hutterian Bretheren and Mennonites) also have very low vaccination rates and are the source of several measles outbreaks in recent years but still flock into Lethbridge with their huge families to shop an mingle...and spread whatever they're carrying.
Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have a large Calvinist Dutch population here in
> southern Alberta that actively preaches against
> vaccines, plus some of the Anabaptists (Hutterian
> Bretheren and Mennonites) also have very low
> vaccination rates and are the source of several
> measles outbreaks in recent years but still flock
> into Lethbridge with their huge families to shop
> an mingle...and spread whatever they're carrying.
So much for loving your neighbour eh? Love should preclude you from sharing your germs, for sure.
Below are some excerpts from various articles/sites I've recently seen re religion and vaccination. I am reassured that so many are in favour and encourage their flock to accept modern medicine, for the benefit of themselves and everybody with whom they come into contact.
It might be surprising which faiths DO accept vaccination, contrary to what may be assumed about them.
It's also reassuring that faiths such as Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses promote vaccination despite their strict beliefs that may otherwise forbid it - for Catholics due to potential use of fetal tissue in manufacturing vaccines and for JWs due to their prohibition against blood products (I'm not sure which vaccines this would refer to - maybe rabies?).
From The Gospel Coalition:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-christians-should-know-vaccines/
Excerpts:
“Vaccines have proven to be one of humankind’s greatest inventions, and the single most powerful and effective way of reducing disease and improving global health.
“A vaccine is created from the same germs that cause disease, using extremely small amounts of weak or dead microbes such as viruses, bacteria, or toxins. A vaccine stimulates your immune system to produce antibodies, exactly as it would if you were exposed to the disease. After getting vaccinated, you develop immunity to that disease, without having to get the disease first.
“The purpose of vaccinations is not only to immunize an individual but also to provide immunization for an entire community.
“When parents refuse to vaccinate their children for philosophical reasons, they increase the risk of disease exposure for the entire community.
“Annual use of recommended vaccines for children has been estimated to avert up to 3 million deaths per year globally, with even greater numbers of prevented cases of illness and substantial disability. For children born in the United States in 2009, routine childhood immunization will prevent an estimated 42,000 early deaths and 20 million cases of disease. An additional 1.5 million deaths could be avoided, though, if global vaccination coverage improves.”
From Canadian Mennonites:
https://www.mennonitechurch.ca/article/12323-a-message-from-mennonite-church-canadas-executive-ministers-on-religious-exemptions-from-covid-19-vaccines
“A message from Mennonite Church Canada’s executive ministers”
“We are responding to inquiries from constituents regarding religious exemption from COVID-19 vaccines. For a religious exemption to be granted, rationale for exemption must be clearly indicated within our sacred texts or confessional statements.
“We wish to clarify that there is nothing in the Bible, in our historic confessions of faith, in our theology or in our ecclesiology that justifies granting a religious exemption from vaccinations against COVID-19.
“We have heard concerns from some members of our constituency regarding the vaccines. However, we do not believe these concerns justify an exemption from COVID-19 vaccinations on religious grounds from within a Mennonite faith tradition.
“From the earliest biblical writings, in the words of Jesus Christ and in ecclesial writings since Jesus’ ascension, the command to love God and love our neighbour is paramount. Vaccinations allow us to live out this command. Not only do they reduce the severity of symptoms for those who become infected with COVID-19, but they reduce the risk of spreading the virus to those around us. We also note that individuals should make personal health care decisions based on advice given by their doctors.
“We pray for unity among us in the Spirit of Christ, who calls us into this life of love, especially for our most vulnerable neighbours.”
From Skeptical Raptor - A review of major religions and vaccines (2023):
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/a-review-of-major-religions-and-vaccines-almost-all-support-vaccinations/
“Members of the Dutch Reformed Church have had a tradition of refusing vaccines going as far back as the early vaccinations for smallpox in the early 1800s. Most of this early vaccine refusal was because of the observed adverse events with the vaccines of that era (which is still an ongoing issue for vaccine deniers), although it has evolved into the formal belief that vaccines interfere with the relationship with their god.
Amish:
“One of the enduring myths of the vaccine deniers is that Amish communities do not get vaccinated. However, there is no prohibition against vaccines by the Amish church, and vaccination rates vary between different communities. And leaders of communities that get hit by a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak are more often accepting of immunization.”
Buddhism:
(Yay for the Buddhist nun):
“Around 1022-1063 CE, a written account described how a Buddhist nun used the process called variolation, which is a form of inoculation. In this case, she ground up smallpox scabs and then put them in the noses of non-immune individuals, an early form of nasal vaccine I suppose. The 14th Dalai Lama, the current incumbent, was involved in a polio vaccination program. There are no religious texts or doctrines that oppose vaccines, and predominantly Buddhist countries are rather pro-vaccine.”
---
“… most Christian churches have no specific scriptural or canonical objection to the use of vaccines. He included the following Christian churches in the list – Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches, Amish, Anglican, Baptist, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), Congregational, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist (including African Methodist Episcopal), Pentecostal, Presbyterian, and Seventh-Day Adventist Church.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“During the 1920s through the 40s, the church was opposed to vaccination based on its doctrine about human blood. However, by the early 1950s, the church took a neutral stance about vaccinations … They unquestionably endorse the success of vaccinations:
“In the world’s developed countries, new vaccines dramatically decreased the toll of measles, mumps, and German measles. A mass polio vaccination campaign, launched in 1955, was so successful that cases of the disease in Western Europe and North America plummeted from 76,000 in that year to fewer than 1,000 in 1967. Smallpox, a major killer disease, was eradicated worldwide.”
Mormons:
“The LDS church (formally known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the adherents known as Mormons) has stated fairly clearly that it supports the use of vaccines to eliminate preventable infectious diseases in children. In addition, LDS missionaries are sent all over the world, and they are all fully vaccinated, with many vaccines that are only used in tropical areas, before they leave on their missions.”
----------
Some exceptionally fundamentalist churches/preachers around and about teach their flock to disregard public health advice. That's when the government sometimes has to step in (as we saw here in B.C. and other places during the height of the recent pandemic) in order to protect citizens. It's very unfortunate. Especially for those who reject potentially lifesaving measures and end up paying a high cost in terms of morbidity and mortality. Not just for themselves but for others they may pass along their infection to who also have to pay the price, unfortunately.
My best friend goes to the Mennonite church. Mainstream.
There's a difference.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2024 05:41PM by Nightingale.
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have a large Calvinist Dutch population here in
> southern Alberta that actively preaches against
> vaccines, plus some of the Anabaptists (Hutterian
> Bretheren and Mennonites) also have very low
> vaccination rates and are the source of several
> measles outbreaks in recent years but still flock
> into Lethbridge with their huge families to shop
> an mingle...and spread whatever they're carrying.
So much for loving your neighbour eh? Love should preclude you from sharing your germs, for sure.
Below are some excerpts from various articles/sites I've recently seen re religion and vaccination. I am reassured that so many are in favour and encourage their flock to accept modern medicine, for the benefit of themselves and everybody with whom they come into contact.
It might be surprising which faiths DO accept vaccination, contrary to what may be assumed about them.
It's also reassuring that faiths such as Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses promote vaccination despite their strict beliefs that may otherwise forbid it - for Catholics due to potential use of fetal tissue in manufacturing vaccines and for JWs due to their prohibition against blood products (I'm not sure which vaccines this would refer to - maybe rabies?).
From The Gospel Coalition:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-christians-should-know-vaccines/
Excerpts:
“Vaccines have proven to be one of humankind’s greatest inventions, and the single most powerful and effective way of reducing disease and improving global health.
“A vaccine is created from the same germs that cause disease, using extremely small amounts of weak or dead microbes such as viruses, bacteria, or toxins. A vaccine stimulates your immune system to produce antibodies, exactly as it would if you were exposed to the disease. After getting vaccinated, you develop immunity to that disease, without having to get the disease first.
“The purpose of vaccinations is not only to immunize an individual but also to provide immunization for an entire community.
“When parents refuse to vaccinate their children for philosophical reasons, they increase the risk of disease exposure for the entire community.
“Annual use of recommended vaccines for children has been estimated to avert up to 3 million deaths per year globally, with even greater numbers of prevented cases of illness and substantial disability. For children born in the United States in 2009, routine childhood immunization will prevent an estimated 42,000 early deaths and 20 million cases of disease. An additional 1.5 million deaths could be avoided, though, if global vaccination coverage improves.”
From Canadian Mennonites:
https://www.mennonitechurch.ca/article/12323-a-message-from-mennonite-church-canadas-executive-ministers-on-religious-exemptions-from-covid-19-vaccines
“A message from Mennonite Church Canada’s executive ministers”
“We are responding to inquiries from constituents regarding religious exemption from COVID-19 vaccines. For a religious exemption to be granted, rationale for exemption must be clearly indicated within our sacred texts or confessional statements.
“We wish to clarify that there is nothing in the Bible, in our historic confessions of faith, in our theology or in our ecclesiology that justifies granting a religious exemption from vaccinations against COVID-19.
“We have heard concerns from some members of our constituency regarding the vaccines. However, we do not believe these concerns justify an exemption from COVID-19 vaccinations on religious grounds from within a Mennonite faith tradition.
“From the earliest biblical writings, in the words of Jesus Christ and in ecclesial writings since Jesus’ ascension, the command to love God and love our neighbour is paramount. Vaccinations allow us to live out this command. Not only do they reduce the severity of symptoms for those who become infected with COVID-19, but they reduce the risk of spreading the virus to those around us. We also note that individuals should make personal health care decisions based on advice given by their doctors.
“We pray for unity among us in the Spirit of Christ, who calls us into this life of love, especially for our most vulnerable neighbours.”
From Skeptical Raptor - A review of major religions and vaccines (2023):
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/a-review-of-major-religions-and-vaccines-almost-all-support-vaccinations/
“Members of the Dutch Reformed Church have had a tradition of refusing vaccines going as far back as the early vaccinations for smallpox in the early 1800s. Most of this early vaccine refusal was because of the observed adverse events with the vaccines of that era (which is still an ongoing issue for vaccine deniers), although it has evolved into the formal belief that vaccines interfere with the relationship with their god.
Amish:
“One of the enduring myths of the vaccine deniers is that Amish communities do not get vaccinated. However, there is no prohibition against vaccines by the Amish church, and vaccination rates vary between different communities. And leaders of communities that get hit by a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak are more often accepting of immunization.”
Buddhism:
(Yay for the Buddhist nun):
“Around 1022-1063 CE, a written account described how a Buddhist nun used the process called variolation, which is a form of inoculation. In this case, she ground up smallpox scabs and then put them in the noses of non-immune individuals, an early form of nasal vaccine I suppose. The 14th Dalai Lama, the current incumbent, was involved in a polio vaccination program. There are no religious texts or doctrines that oppose vaccines, and predominantly Buddhist countries are rather pro-vaccine.”
---
“… most Christian churches have no specific scriptural or canonical objection to the use of vaccines. He included the following Christian churches in the list – Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches, Amish, Anglican, Baptist, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), Congregational, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist (including African Methodist Episcopal), Pentecostal, Presbyterian, and Seventh-Day Adventist Church.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“During the 1920s through the 40s, the church was opposed to vaccination based on its doctrine about human blood. However, by the early 1950s, the church took a neutral stance about vaccinations … They unquestionably endorse the success of vaccinations:
“In the world’s developed countries, new vaccines dramatically decreased the toll of measles, mumps, and German measles. A mass polio vaccination campaign, launched in 1955, was so successful that cases of the disease in Western Europe and North America plummeted from 76,000 in that year to fewer than 1,000 in 1967. Smallpox, a major killer disease, was eradicated worldwide.”
Mormons:
“The LDS church (formally known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the adherents known as Mormons) has stated fairly clearly that it supports the use of vaccines to eliminate preventable infectious diseases in children. In addition, LDS missionaries are sent all over the world, and they are all fully vaccinated, with many vaccines that are only used in tropical areas, before they leave on their missions.”
----------
Some exceptionally fundamentalist churches/preachers around and about teach their flock to disregard public health advice. That's when the government sometimes has to step in (as we saw here in B.C. and other places during the height of the recent pandemic) in order to protect citizens. It's very unfortunate. Especially for those who reject potentially lifesaving measures and end up paying a high cost in terms of morbidity and mortality. Not just for themselves but for others they may pass along their infection to who also have to pay the price, unfortunately.
My best friend goes to the Mennonite church. Mainstream.
There's a difference.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2024 05:41PM by Nightingale.
Well, you have to admit that it does interfere with God's plan to thin the herd. Of course, so do hospitals in general. And traffic signals. And parkas.