I prefer specific words - terms without much social offense or ambiguity, that's why I have trouble with the word 'cult'.


* Isn't this always offensive, or derogatory?


* Is there a better, more exact (sociological) word to use?

https://www.peacefuldumpling.com/i-left-the-mormon-church-cult



Why I Left The Mormon Church And Why It's A Cult
by Emily Iris Degn
March 28, 2023

If you know a Mormon, you probably have had one of three thoughts: “Their family is so big and they all look the same,” “Why are they so judgmental?”, or “Wow, they sure invite me to a lot of church events.” You might know about the Book of Mormon (the racist Mormon bible of the Americas that essentially erases the real history of Indigenous people, written by a white man in the 1800s). You might know what a Mormon temple looks like. You might even know that they don’t drink, but no one outside of it really comprehends most of what they teach, or why there seems to be a lot of problematic themes.

There’s a reason for the lack of information. The church doesn’t want people to know that it’s actually a cult, so it takes years for even members to slowly find out information about it. Once you’re 12, you start learning a little about church history and what’s expected of adults. You’re taught to strictly adhere to modesty rules, to not drink coffee or alcohol, fast for 24 hours once a month, pay 10% of your income (or allowance in this case) every month to the church, get baptized in place of the dead (yeah), and devote your life to the Gospel. In the summer, you go to week-long camps for your gender and age. Every few years you go on “trek,” which is where you dress up, starve, and recreate the Mormon trek to Utah. It’s a forced thing, and it’s shocking there hasn’t been a lawsuit yet.

You’re also forbidden from making out “passionately” or having sex until marriage. When boys turn 18, they go through the temple for the first time so that they can serve a two-year mission. This is when they find out about temple ceremonies (plagiarized from masonic rituals and complete with bizarre, cult outfits), the teachings about them being the master over their future wives, their secret name (they’re given a name that is said to be their true name in heaven—women are ordered to tell their husbands their names, but husbands can keep theirs a secret), and many more bizarre things.

Women don’t learn about the temple ceremonies or go through it until they are about to get married. They go on to serve a mission only after the age of 19 (it’s not compulsory for girls, so most don’t find out until they’re married). Adults are to attend the temple as much as possible to perform “endowments” for the dead, or rather, marry the dead and make promises on their behalf. To attend temple (which is vital to make it to the Celestial Kingdom—the highest of the three in Mormon heaven), members must obey all the rules, pay their tithing, and sustain their prophets without question. After you attend the temple, you must wear garments at all times (you know, “magic underwear”), and you’re to swear an oath to never talk about what happens in the temple to anyone (not too long ago it was a blood oath). Later in your life, you find out that men are to be the gods of their own planet once they die, and their wife will be merely one of many spirit wives to them in heaven, and they will bear them children and pleasure them for all of eternity. You find out later that having sex is renewing your temple covenants, and so sex is considered a duty on the part of the wife. All that being said, many members never find out that all of this is for nothing, or find out the lies, coverups, and scams of their cult. In fact, most will never know that their church is in fact a cult, which is why it’s so rare to leave it.

GNPE, I believe you were predestined to ask these two questions!!

(nevermo perspective) "fraud" or "con" work pretty well.

Sect? Dogma?

Grey areas are always fun.

Some organizations clearly meet the dictionary definition as well as the broad social understanding of the word. Few would argue with the definition of NXIVM as a cult.

Unease sets in though when applying that word to Mormonism. Connotatively, if not definitively, cults are small organizations, so Mormonism doesn't comfortably fit even though it is functionally reliant on cult tactics in its methods.

I haven't heard a good word for this. "High demand religion" is sometimes used, but I think that term is more ambiguous in definition than "cult", and so infrequently used in everyday life that it's connotatively useless. Plus it's three whole words, and some of us are too lazy for that kind of effort.

So, pending a better word, my go-to of late is "bonkers", which also may not have the social acceptability you're looking for...

I think of it as a "high control" denomination.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think of it as a "high control" denomination.

Absolutely.

I think the adjective before cult matters too. For example compare greedy cult to charitable cult. The cult part is a given by definition, IMO. ;-\

Whether any group is a "cult" depends on how you define the word "cult." Many religious people define as "cult" any group that has beliefs or teachings that they consider heretical (that is, not like their own). Often that definition is phrased as: "A cult teaches false doctrine." That is not a useful definition.

For cult experts (people who deal professionally with cults as harmful and oppressive organizations) it is not really the content of the organization's doctrine that puts them in the "cult" category so much as the techniques they use to attract and to keep members. Those professionals have usually drawn up checklists of cult characteristics, against which anyone can measure how cult-like an organization is.

The following is a synthesis of the major characteristics of cults, based on many checklists from cult experts.

Cult Characteristics

The group displays unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the binding truth and law.
Questioning, doubt, critical thinking, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess to solidify loyalty to the group.
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, aspects of daily life: how members should think, act, and feel, how they should dress, what they should eat.
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members, as the sole depository of the complete truth. No other belief system is seen as legitimate or useful.
The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality.
The group sees itself as persecuted because of its having the truth, and views any criticism from outside as evidence of persecution and thus confirmation of the group's truth.
The group fosters either-or, black-and-white views, right-or-wrong thinking, with no allowance for gray areas.
The leader is not accountable to any authorities or to the members.
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary, which may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group.
The leadership induces feelings of shame, guilt, and/or fear in order to influence and/or control members.
Members who have difficulties conforming to the group are made to feel that the problems are because of their own failings, and not because of any problems with the group.
Subservience to the leader or group leads members to cut ties with family and former friends, and to alter radically the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
The group expends great effort to bring in new members.
The group requires major financial commitment from its members as a test of loyalty to the group.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
Members are encouraged to report to the leadership group members who are not conforming.
The group has an extensive system of rewards and punishments for controlling members' lives.
Leadership uses deception, both to the public and to its own members.
The group has special vocabulary, a kind of shorthand, or "buzz words" which substitute for actual rational analysis.
Leadership exerts control over information, discouraging members from getting information from non-group sources. Some important information is not available to new members, but only those who have proven their loyalty.
Members come to feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to live, and often fear severe consequences if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

This list is based primarily on Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised" by Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., also in Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships (Paperback) by Janja Lalich, Madeleine Landau Tobias ISBN: 0972002154

Other resources on identifying cults, with similar checklists:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/ The home page of Steve Hassan, an authority on cults and brainwashing.
"[Hassan's] BITE Model Applied Toward Mormonism"
http://www.caic.org.au Jan Groenveld's Cult Awareness Centre
http://www.factnet.org FACTnet, resources on psychological coercion and mind control
http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html Isaac Bonewits' cult checklist, with 18 items and worksheet.
A 12-minute video on cults in general: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
Luna Lindsey, Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control, 2014
See also the article "Spiritual Abuse"

Mormonism has many cult characteristics, to varying degrees. My evaluation is at packham.n4m.org/cult.htm

Some movies are cult classics. Mormonism is kind of like that. A few million people worldwide like it. As with a movie franchise, it has its own universe and set of characters.

It works better if you believe that universe is real. But then you get stuck in perpetual Jr High. You can always fake it the way you fake belief in Santa.

Is being deliberately fake among a people who are unintentionally fake a bad thing?

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some movies are cult classics. Mormonism is kind
> of like that. A few million people worldwide like
> it. As with a movie franchise, it has its own
> universe and set of characters.


Casablanca (Key Largo, most Humphrey Bogart) is my 'cult favorite', I'm somewhat aware of these also:

Bagdad Cafe
Rocky Horror Picture Show
Village Barbershop
Citizen Kane
Psycho
Brazil



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2024 05:54PM by GNPE.

Rocky Horror picture show?

I realized some ago when I was trying to describe Mormonism to a nevermo that I sounded a little bit crazy. There is just so much material. This is what I share now if asked.

“…well, when my son got married in the Mormon temple I was not allowed to attend because I was no longer a practicing member of the church…”

The reaction is surprise, disbelief, and a short leap to ‘that is pretty cult like’. This practice is so beyond what is considered normal in the real world that it really takes people aback.

I think ‘cult-like’ or ‘high demand’ depending on the audience.

In many other European languages, "cult" merely means "denomination".

Fictional swindle?


HH =)

    

Jesus, we missed you!

But I guess you have to go underground from time to time when you're in the Witless Protection Program.

Welcome back!

I too have similar issues. So something qualifies as a "cult"- depending, of course, on the features you choose to include in your own private definition of what constitutes a cult. But nowhere, usually, does the conversation ever drift in to the central question, which is: are those things bad? If so, why are they "bad"? Plenty of Mormons grow up to lead happy, well-adjusted lives, and those types are the ones who fail to see why anyone would have any disputes with Mormonism. So here's the central question (and it's not a rhetorical question): why are those features harmful? Who and how do they harm? Thank you.

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... why are those
> features harmful? Who and how do they harm?

As with most things, it depends on your make-up/personality, upbringing, value set, priorities - a bunch of stuff that goes into who you are and what your life experiences have been.

That doesn't only apply to Mormonism of course. I was intensely painfully shy from birth and stuff others didn't notice could wound me, scar me, and that in itself added to my uncertainty and shyness because I would wonder why this or that didn't seem to bother anybody else but me. For instance, if a teacher looked at me sideways in class I'd shrink into a puddle but other kids could just laugh it off. I wonder if it was because my father was quite stern (although he would disagree) and my older sister and I often felt that we had to measure up or else. If we felt that we had messed up or disappointed someone it could seem like the worst thing ever.

That was likely one of the factors at play even as an adult when I joined Mormonism. In summary, there were expectations (not made known at first) and I didn't meet them (but didn't know why) and it didn't feel good. The whole Mormon thing seemed mysterious to me, like a movie everybody had seen except me because they all seemed to know what was going on when I could never figure it out. It just always felt bad. That's partly why I was so disappointed with the temple as everybody's answer to all my questions was that all would be revealed in the temple - except - it wasn't. That made me feel even worse, like there was something wrong with me, because everybody else understood, it seemed, and they all knew whatever we were supposed to know, except for me. It turned out that the Emperor really *was* naked and everybody was pretending he was dressed in all his finery. And I'm standing in the background yelling "what finery??????????" I fell for them saying all will be revealed in the temple. It wasn't, of course. But then there were even more expectations and the answers to all my questions and doubts was inevitably "but you've been to the temple". Yeah, didn't help.

Some may be able to accept the way things are and not be too disturbed by it. Others not so much.

So I think the answer is that some features are harmful to some people, depending on many variables such as upbringing, personality, principles, needs, values and experiences.

Within Mormonism specifically, just as in other groups and faiths and families and societies, people are individuals and have different needs. Mormonism and other high-control religions act like everyone is the same. They don't value individuality or freedom of choice. In fact, they specifically condemn it.

I think that pushing "one way" on every person, denying their individuality, can be very harmful to their development, personality, autonomy and free will. If you feel that you're not measuring up, especially if it's within a family and/or faith group, it's easy to think you're flawed, at fault, unworthy. Obviously, that environment and those feelings do not help to promote healthy self-esteem and well-adjusted, happy, productive adults.

As for who does it harm, obviously it's the person who doesn't "measure up" to the expectations of parents, friends, teachers, church leaders or whoever it is that has had influence and control over them. Experiencing the inevitable negative feelings can cause low self-esteem - never feeling good enough because that's the message all these people are sending - as well as other potentially harmful negative emotions.

If there's plenty of happy Mormons, I'm glad to know it. But it should be their choice, and the choice for every individual, not something that's forced on them by parents, guardians, church officials, etc.

That's the problem with it - and many other religions, as we often mention - if you're happy with it, great, but don't expect everyone to be the same as you. If a strict father, whose approach was to yell and expect and demand and criticize and judge negatively, has two sons who are both apparently treated the same and one grows up to be a happy well-adjusted accomplished person while the other has a lifelong inferiority complex that keeps him from reaching his potential as a productive human being, what is the lesson? That being strict and demanding is OK because one son seems fine? Or that a more gentle hand would have better served the other son and then both sons would have flourished?

So in part I think the harm comes due to a one size fits all approach plus from the tendency to demean the one who doesn't measure up to the expectations of others. For instance, when obedience is prized and individuality is punished.

Too, freedom of choice is vastly underrated in too many instances. If you enjoy going to the temple, for instance, by all means knock yourself out - go every week or every day or as many times as your heart desires. But if it's not for you, that shouldn't be a reason to judge you as lacking, as less worthy, but we know that is exactly what happens.

So there are happy Mormons (apparently?). Great. But there are many who are unhappy. Why should they have to be singled out as different and suspicious and especially "unworthy", as we know they are, which can be soul-destroying (so to speak) for many. And all they want is a bit of room to employ freedom of choice and to be the individual they want to be. Individual - not a cookie cutter person in a pack of other cookies exactly the same.

Yes, 'cult' is a loaded word, usually seen as pejorative.

But there are many reasons for that. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Mormonism is a cult but it certainly has features that are cult-like.

The obvious example is the temple.

For one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2024 07:57PM by Nightingale.

thanks for your comments;

I recently cop,ied this from the net, not knowing who the author is-

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion” -Daniel Dennett

'cult' is a trigger word, I don't understand how it could persuade a believer to change; in my book, it's like throwing gas on a fire.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think of it as a "high control" denomination.

"High-control" is the best so far, Summer. But "del nomination" needs refinement, as it implies an organized (corporate) religion, and not all cults are religious. Some are psychological, others are political, even tribal. And some groups may have strongly cultic aspects without leadership, treasuries, or organized structure.

Thus, I would phrase it "high-control belief group."

The reference to "cult movies" got me to thinking: why are . Packham's list, above, is very thorough and detailed, just great, but I would add "members are devoted to the group or leader with extreme loyalty." Thus, the Marines are cultic. (OOOoooo-RAH!)

People who have an extreme devotion to a movie or celebrity can be facetiously called "cultists," but their obsession is (hopefully) not as encompassing as a "high-control belief group."

Disclaimer: I belong to two cults: the Marx Brothers, and the Rogers & Hammerstein group.

A lot of MLMs are cult-like. It's no accident that Utah hosts its fair share of MLM companies.

Cult has several meanings and wasn't always derogatory. But if someone is calling the LDS a cult, then it is derogatory.

I think the other problem is that even though the LDS is high commitment, calling it a cult allows members to deflect by saying they're not as harsh as Scientology (true), and don't live in a compound like the FLDS (except missionaries perhaps.)

A few posts back GNPE said:
>'cult' is a trigger word, I don't understand how it could persuade a believer to change; in my book, it's like throwing gas on a fire.

You are assuming someone is using the word 'cult' to try and persuade a believer to change. I think it is almost always the case that the word is used to irritate, and there is zero interest in persuasion. "Triggering" is the point.

- Christian sect (almost too polite, its more precise meaning would be like, "RLDS are a sect of LDS."

I had a whole list, but now I've forgotten. Most were a bit too benign .