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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: March 03, 2024 05:05PM

I hope these gift articles mean no paywall

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/03/02/lds-church-wins-round-tithing/

Basically the lawsuit is going to the full 9th circuit court and will be heard by up to 18 justices. Stay tuned

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: March 03, 2024 06:25PM

I'm not hopeful.

I'll bet if you tell me who appointed the 18 judges I might be able to guess the outcome. ;-)

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 03, 2024 06:37PM

I never thought that the lawsuit would go anywhere, but I thought it very honorable of Huntsman to file it.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: March 04, 2024 01:22AM

These justices are probably all LDS, is my guess.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 04, 2024 01:44AM

That’s either a bad guess or a bad joke. I’m going with joke.

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Posted by: Xtra ( )
Date: March 09, 2024 07:28AM

De Tocqueville pointed out nearly two hundred years ago that the American justice system is set up to benefit those who are benefitting from the system. The LDS is one of those. I can't see how this case can win.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 10, 2024 03:38AM

Xtra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> De Tocqueville pointed out nearly two hundred
> years ago that the American justice system is set
> up to benefit those who are benefitting from the
> system.

Okay, I'll play.

If you've really read Democracy in America, you can tell us in which volume and chapter he wrote that. And no, I don't for an instant believe you are capable of doing that because, as you've demonstrated countless times, you are much more likely to cite erudite books than to have read them.

Prove me wrong.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 10, 2024 09:21AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And no, I don't for an instant believe you
> are capable of doing that because, as you've
> demonstrated countless times, you are much more
> likely to cite erudite books than to have read
> them.
>
> Prove me wrong.

Ha!

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Posted by: Yes, I do read, unfortunately ( )
Date: March 11, 2024 07:40AM

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And no, I don't for an instant believe you
> > are capable of doing that because, as you've
> > demonstrated countless times, you are much more
> > likely to cite erudite books than to have read
> > them.
> >
> > Prove me wrong.
>
> Ha!

You can find the relevant passage quoted in the reply below. It is in the second chapter of Vol. 1. As I said, quite early on.

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Posted by: Yes, I do read, unfortunately ( )
Date: March 11, 2024 07:19AM

As a matter of fact "Democracy in America" was one of the picks for our book club last year. So not very long ago. I don't think any of us (including the person who picked it) managed to read the entire thing in the alloted month. So no, I haven't read it cover to cover. I doubt you have either, have you? But I have read at least two or three hundred pages of it. (It's nearly a thousand pages long in the Penguin Classics edition that I bought, although most of that is admittedly is in an 11/12 pt font. :) That info about the font size isn't readily available online BTW FYI AFAIK.)

The Penguin edition is combined into a single volume. The relevant passage is fairly early on in what was originally the first volume where he discusses the origins of American society. I've read it because it's early on the book. LOL. It points out what your ilk would term the "unconscious biases" of the American legal system against the poor. It may be discussing bail, but it is relevant in regard to the problem in general. In fact, things have probably gotten worse since he wrote this. This passage is the US legal system in a nutshell.

----
Here is the relevant passage. Since I'm using a phone I've had to resort to cutting and pasting it from Project Gutenberg in a different translation. (I'm sure you're familiar with that technique).

----
Laws and customs are frequently to be met with in the United States which contrast strongly with all that surrounds them. These laws seem to be drawn up in a spirit contrary to the prevailing tenor of the American legislation; and these customs are no less opposed to the tone of society. If the English colonies had been founded in an age of darkness, or if their origin was already lost in the lapse of years, the problem would be insoluble.

I shall quote a single example to illustrate what I advance. The civil and criminal procedure of the Americans has only two means of action—committal and bail. The first measure taken by the magistrate is to exact security from the defendant, or, in case of refusal, to incarcerate him: the ground of the accusation and the importance of the charges against him are then discussed. It is evident that a legislation of this kind is hostile to the poor man, and favorable only to the rich. The poor man has not always a security to produce, even in a civil cause; and if he is obliged to wait for justice in prison, he is speedily reduced to distress. The wealthy individual, on the contrary, always escapes imprisonment in civil causes; nay, more, he may readily elude the punishment which awaits him for a delinquency by breaking his bail. So that all the penalties of the law are, for him, reducible to fines. Nothing can be more aristocratic than this system of legislation. Yet in America it is the poor who make the law, and they usually reserve the greatest social advantages to themselves. The explanation of the phenomenon is to be found in England; the laws of which I speak are English, and the Americans have retained them, however repugnant they may be to the tenor of their legislation and the mass of their ideas. Next to its habits, the thing which a nation is least apt to change is its civil legislation. Civil laws are only familiarly known to legal men, whose direct interest it is to maintain them as they are, whether good or bad, simply because they themselves are conversant with them. The body of the nation is scarcely acquainted with them; it merely perceives their action in particular cases; but it has some difficulty in seizing their tendency, and obeys them without premeditation.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 11, 2024 12:05PM

If you were to search "Toqueville" (my misspelling) in the RfM archives you would find that I have posted about Democracy in America no less than 17 times. To those paying attention, that fact might suggest that I have some familiarity with the great work.

Indeed if you had the book, you might have been able to tell us where that passage came from. The answer is that it is the third and fourth paragraphs from the bottom of Chapter Two, which is page 47 in the first volume of the Vantage Books edition. All of that would also be clearly labeled in the Penguin edition that you claim to own.

But I wouldn't worry too much about having barely cracked the cover. Most people don't read the books assigned by their book clubs either.


-----------------
Now let's see where that leaves us.

Your assertion is that "De Tocqueville pointed out nearly two hundred years ago that the American justice system is set up to benefit those who are benefitting from the system."

Putting aside the circular logic in that sentence--those who benefit from the system are benefiting from the system--Tocqueville actually wrote that the US system was much more egalitarian and fair than those of Europe and that the bail mechanism was an "example" of a detail that contradicts the overall ethos and effect. Did you miss that?

Second, if you had the book, as you claim, you might have noticed that subtitle of that section is "Reasons for Certain Anomalies which the Laws and Customs of the Anglo-Americans Present." Tocqueville thus describes the bail system as an "anomaly" in a judicial regime that treats the poor uniquely well.

Third, you might have noted that the next pages 50-54 explain in detail how much more reasonable the US inheritance laws are than any European country's. Again, you are taking a single criticism of an "anomaly" and misconstruing it as a critique of an entire legal scheme.

Fourth, Tocqueville explicitly blames the unequal and unfair exceptions to the egalitarian ethos of the US system on the sinful character of the English. But if England's laws are so much worse than those of the United States, how can a proud Canadian like you, who inherited the entire English legal system, reasonably complain about the inequity of the much more egalitarian US one?


-------------
So no, Tocqueville did not think the US system was retrograde. He explicitly said it was the most egalitarian one in the world.

Which raises the question why you would be so eager to misrepresent the great thinker and his views. It almost seems that you are just another citizen of a geopolitically irrelevant country that needs something against which to rail and finds the United States a handy target.

Could that be it? Could your sense of grievance blind you to what you read?

You mad Bro?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2024 12:14PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 12, 2024 03:24PM

Too busy reading 1984, that book club choice from years ago that you likewise only got a few pages into?

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 12, 2024 04:06PM

The church says pay us 10% and if you do and there’s no written agreement on how the church spends or invests the money then you really have no legal case.

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