Mormons, Evangelicals, hard core Catholics, ultra Orthodox, Puritans, etc. (and I would add the quasi-religious ideologies of Nazism and totalitarian Soviet-style totalitarian Communism and Stalinism and Juche) all have this problem: They have to force the entire world to become an extension of their imagination.



It doesn't matter what the issues are -- heteronormative patriarchal Christianity, white nationalist monochronism, anti-science or anti-intellectualism -- no other way of living can be acknowledged or even allowed to exist. Differences cannot be tolerated.


Is it because they know in the back of their minds that what they believe is really a lie and therefore they must be constantly reminded that their fantasies are "real?"


Here's a review of one of the most monstrous follies of non-reason: the KY Ark Park.



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https://bittersoutherner.com/2020/the-ark-at-the-end-of-the-world


As the daughter of a Methodist preacher from Memphis, I’ve always been fascinated by evangelical Christianity: its newness, its certainty, and its urgency all seemed so foreign from the quiet, painfully moderate tradition I’d been raised in. My husband, Colin — a native Kentuckian who was raised in an evangelical church housed in a former shopping mall — nearly broke out in hives when I asked him to visit the Ark Encounter with me.

We’ve both drifted from the faiths of our childhoods, but as I’ve lost my footing in any particular tradition, I’ve cultivated a growing obsession with religion in general. It would be easy to dismiss this massive boat as an extreme but essentially goofy version of white conservative evangelical Christianity, but I felt determined to suspend my own judgment, to try and discover whatever it was that appealed to the people all around us, cheerfully making their way toward the boat.


Depending on which roadside attraction you choose, you’ll be presented with opposing visions of the world: one in which the world is billions of years old and the product of constant, ongoing change; and another in which the world is 10,000 years old, at most, and was created in only six days. In this second worldview, evolution remains, at best, just an unsubstantiated hunch, an improbable inkling. At worst, according to Henry Morris, one of the founding fathers of young-earth creationism, evolution is a “tool of Satan to destroy belief in God” and “the root of atheism, of communism, nazism, behaviorism, racism, economic imperialism, militarism, libertinism, anarchism, and all manner of anti-Christian systems of belief and practice.”

At the opening of the Creation Museum in 2007, Ken Ham referenced the 1925 Scopes trial and promised that the Creation Museum would serve as a reversal to the humiliation suffered by creationists when Clarence Darrow grilled William Jennings Bryan on the stand. The Scopes trial “was the first time the Bible was ridiculed by the media in America,” Ham said, and made a promise: “We are going to undo all of that.” In the Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter, Ham aims not only to rewrite history, but to create a future in which modern science is suspect and creationists are no laughing matter.


But the Scopes trial of 1925 was a particularly galvanizing moment for white evangelicals who felt increasingly alienated: “The ignominy surrounding the Scopes trial convinced evangelicals that the larger culture had turned against them,” Randall Balmer writes in The Making of Evangelicalism. Evangelicals “responded by withdrawing from the culture, which they came to regard as Satan’s domain, to construct an alternative universe, an evangelical subculture.”

These first subcultures included Bible colleges, publishing houses, and seminaries, but soon expanded beyond the explicitly religious realm. In The Anointed: Evangelical Truth in a Secular Age, Randall J. Stephens and Karl W. Giberson describe the growing (and increasingly lucrative) “parallel cultures” of the contemporary evangelical world: in addition to Christian music, books, and movies, evangelical leaders and organizations produce “in-house versions of natural science, history, social science, and views of the end-times.” The efficacy of these parallel cultures enables evangelicals to “reject the non-Christian world around them.” In a 2010 speech, Ken Ham echoes this sense of a definitive binary, arguing that there was “no neutral position” between biblical literalism and atheism.

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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2024 01:25PM by anybody.

In my view it's related to In and Out group thinking.

When you're within certain groups it can supply a sense of surety and certainty that is not available outside the group. You're part of special knowledge that protects you and shows you reality, for certain values of knowledge and reality that don't align with anyone in the out groups anyway.

It makes you special within your worldview.

there is very little we can be sure of with evidence we simply can't observe evidence well enough. Uncertainty is a feature of human reality.

And being in certain groups (world views) for certain people allows them to experience less uncertainty.

Why does God keep destroying the Ark Park with floods?

The Mormons seem to have learned from the EVs and cut back on some of the more "colorful" aspects...like the Hill Cumorah pagent and the infamous "Sons Of Helaman" parade complete with magic underwear under their "Lamanite" costumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JK7ULqK9U

I can really only talk about Roman Catholicism, in which I was raised.

Most Catholics are very understanding about people who leave their church. The most common reaction I have gotten when I announce that I've left is, "I understand." Catholics know that their faith is complex and imperfect. Most modern Catholics don't insist that everyone share it.

Catholicism is what I call a "big tent" religion in which a wide range of belief and practice is tolerated. On the furthest fringe are the inactives or "twice a years" who only show up at church on the two obligatory days, Christmas and Easter. On the other furthest fringe, you have the believers who are members of extreme right-wing Catholic groups such as Opus Dei.

I've only met two practicing Catholics who were disturbed by my lack of activity. I've also met many others who were not, including priests and nuns. They attitude of most Catholics generally is that inactives or unbelievers are still considered "family" because you have a shared experience.

As for the few who are hostile...wow. I don't know. They sure are different. I think what characterized them is rigidity of thinking. There are some churches that encourage rigidity of thinking -- their way or the highway.

A certain maturity is required to respect that other sincere people may hold contrary opinions.

When I was a member of the Church many people I worked with politically were very committed Catholics. We were involved in the beginnings of what would become the Culture Wars in BC that we now have dominating conservative politics across the USA.

I sensed a different perspective on the role of government in society from me as a minority LDS and these Catholics. LDS in BC, Canada viewed ourselves as a minority willing to be left alone by what would now be called "the Woke." Catholics expected to be in charge of government policy. I suspect it would be much different in southern Alberta (Canada's Idaho).

Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark famously likened government power as an iron fist in a velvet glove. In that analogy, Catholics expected to be at the elbow controlling where the velvet glove acts in society.

That's an interesting perspective. I do know that Catholics often do not agree with each other or (even more so,) with the church. For instance, even in heavily Catholic Ireland, both birth control and abortion are freely available.

We don't know much about the late Western Roman Empire from non-Christian sources. There are a few, but not many.

Did this happen before?

I don't mean Constantine proclaiming Christianity on a top level.

I mean on a local, personal level -- when the religious hierarchy became the state itself.

Summer wrote in part:

"For instance, even in heavily Catholic Ireland, both birth control and abortion are freely available."

Until relatively recently (I believe it happened about two decades ago), this was not the case; in fact, the Roman church is very much against what it sees as the Irish people lowering their moral standards.

That's true, but my point is that Catholics do not necessarily go with the church's wishes even when they are the majority or in charge.

For instance, back many years ago, many people in the U.S. were afraid to have a Catholic president (John F. Kennedy,) because they thought the Pope would lead Kennedy around by the nose. Catholics knew better. You simply can't predict what a Catholic will think or believe based on their religion alone.

If you believe that there are supernatural malevolent forces empowered by the actions of non-believers, and that these malevolent forces are responsible for the evils in the world that are causing you personal misery, then those non-believers become the target of your ire.

We employed a "Christian" in about 1985. Judgemental, mean and nasty to nearly everyone in the store. He pretty much decided to move on after everyone in the store called him a jerk.

Employee number 2. He would constantly impose his will by changing the TV in the break room to TBN. Finally, I had to tell him not to do that anymore because I was getting complaints from at least five people. He said that regular broadcast TV was evil and everyone in the place should watch TBN. He brought his wife in while I was working after hours. She wanted to impose her Pentecostal beliefs on me. I countered. Eventually she jumped up in my face and said that anyone that opposed her, Deity would put them aside. She was anointed with the holy spirit. Ok, you're in my house and you are threatening me? I threatened to fired her husband and I told him to knock it off or else.

Last year her husband had a stroke and she said "F" had that stroke because he failed to believe fully in Deity and do his wishes.

Employee number 3. All around good guy. Doesn't take religion all that serious. He and his wife are Seventh Day Adventist. His wife is a total nut job demanding "C" to build shrines to Jesus in the house. I think they have bought seven night lights with Jesus themes. She's been fired from every job she's had within two weeks to a month because she can't shut up about her religious beliefs. The company hosted a dinner at Ruth's Chris and she had the nerve to ask me if I go to church. I said no. She said aren't your worried about your salvation? Nope. Odd thing is she refuses to go to church because she doesn't like the non white members.

They rented for several years and were able to buy a new house. She wanted to move immediately because she found the two gals next door were lesbians. She demanded her husband put a fence because she was sure the gals were spying on her. When gay marriage came for vote she became so agitated that it put her in hospital with chest pains. Additional info. Her mother died. The family didn't tell her for two months. She naturally wanted her share of the sale price for the condo. Mom had cut her out of the will. She forced the family into bankruptcy by demanding she drive luxury cars. She would call about eight times a day and tell her hubby you don't love me unless you buy me a new car.

I think all three of these employees had self image issues and they were trying to compensate. I know that employee's wife number 2 was battered by her father while her mother did nothing. Her sister had major mental issues because of the abuse. BTW her father was mormon.

I know there are Christians that aren't nut jobs. The examples I listed are the radicalized extreme.

The people that you mention seem to have mental health issues, with religion as a focus point.

I would add a couple of other categories: People who self-imagine themselves to be so righteous or so important to the religion or "deity" that they do all sorts of immoral acts in private and convince themselves they are doing good or people who are total cynics who don't believe any of the dogma but who want to gain power, money, influence, etc. and pretend to be more pious than pious on the outside and secretly act the opposite on the inside behind closed doors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2024 08:28AM by anybody.

Anybody wrote in part:

"Mormons, Evangelicals, hard core Catholics, ultra Orthodox, Puritans, etc. (and I would add the quasi-religious ideologies of Nazism and totalitarian Soviet-style totalitarian Communism and Stalinism and Juche) all have this problem: They have to force the entire world to become an extension of their imagination."

The problem is that what we view as "extensions of their imaginations" is what they view as reality or how they believe the world ought to be. For whatever reason (and some are very legitimate), these people are desperately seeking a simple world that doesn't change and offers simple solutions of who to blame (as long as it isn't them) for complex problems. As noted from some of the previous responses, some of these people suffer some grave mental imbalances sometimes brought on by diseases that even those of us who know better don't fully understand and sometimes by the behaviors of their own families (keep in mind that the only requirement to becoming human parents is having properly functioning sexual paraphanilia).

Physician, heal thyself.

Here's the deal. No one really cares how the fundies live their lives as long as they leave the rest of us alone. But they can't manage that.

but they seem to have a great desire to control my life and my body...

The easygoing attitude of Catholics and many Protestants is a relatively recent phenomenon, pretty much since WWII, and for many issues, like divorce and female clergy, quite a while after WWII. For gender issues, that is still a work in progress.

There are still Catholics who will jump through all kinds of hoops to get their previous marriage declared annulled so their current marriage can be done in a Catholic Church. They may only show up in church three times in their life (baptism, marriage, funeral), but those three times matter to a lot of people.

Divorce in some countries is still very difficult, or in some cases not legal at all.

Eh, my grandmother who was born in the 1800s was very casual about going to church, and had no trouble telling the priest that she was needed at home instead.

The church has such a big membership that you are bound to have a range of practice, belief, and opinion. Plus there is not much in the way of church discipline. Excommunications are rare.

In my experience most followers of most religious groups you mention have been tolerant of other beliefs.

You might give the psychologists a rest on this. No need to explain things that aren't so.

No but that sounds good.

>> In my experience most followers of most religious groups you mention have been tolerant of other beliefs.

There are plenty of mainstream Christians who are tolerant of, and can play nicely with others who don't share their beliefs. However in recent years their voices have been drowned out by the extremists.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63902626

New battle lines are being drawn in the US by a right-wing Christian movement set on what it sees as its divine mission - to spread its beliefs and messages using political power. So what is Christian nationalism and why is it flourishing now?

Thousands of people hungry for an experience of God and longing to be free of their demons crowded into a large tent for a mass deliverance service.

Some fell to the ground and lay still, others screamed as the pastor commanded their dark spirits to come out in Jesus' name. Some just held each other with what seemed relief and release. Afterwards around 20 were baptised in a horse trough filled with water.

This is the Global Vision Church near Nashville in Tennessee, headed by Pastor Greg Locke. He is a charismatic and controversial figure who is tapping into a long tradition of Pentecostal revival in the United States, an apocalyptic spirit that is animating the rise of a new Christian right.

PRRI's Jones says this fear of a cultural takeover by the left is built on a bedrock of Christian nationalism - the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation and that the government should keep it that way.

Russell Moore, with whom I agree, said; "If the gospel is true, that means the gospel is not a means to an end. It's not a tool to excite nationalistic passions, or to form social bonds, or to teach civics. The gospel is the announcement that God has raised the crucified Jesus from the dead and seated him in the heavenly places at the right hand of God as the heavenly ruler of the cosmos. If that is true then every other allegiance is subordinate." Moore is the editor of Christianity Today'

I post this not as am argument for religion but to emphasise that here are those within evangelicalism who are speaking our against the those like Locke. Moore is just one of many within C hristianity in the United States who see the danger posed by the fanatical right.

I recommend Tim Alberta's book on the subject "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory". To be clear, the book is written from the perspective of a believer and his concern at developments. A good read none the less IMV.

And the rankle and rage at countries that are Islamic republics.

Methodism might be seen as moderate today but it was once at the forefront of what is now termed evangelicalism, Today,for various reasons and not least because of its political emphasis the vey word has taken on a different meaning. Certainly to many looking in.

Kentish Wrote:
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> ... Today,for various reasons and not
> least because of its political emphasis the vey
> word has taken on a different meaning. Certainly
> to many looking in.

Yes, different meaning. You can't fight the morphing I don't think, of either their particular message or the EV label now.

You said above:

"...[t]here are those within evangelicalism who are speaking out against those like Locke."

Yes. Lumping everybody into a gigantic bundle and judging them all adversely for the shortcomings (or worse) of only a segment of them is an unfortunate approach. Also, inaccurate.

But words have enormous power. Sometimes their meaning/connotation morphs so much that we have to avoid the original and seek new ones. Unfortunate in many cases.

I'm talking about a group of people who call themselves "christians" or "evangelicals" who seek to impose their will upon all of society.

The question I'm asking is *why.*

My guess is that the answer is fear, and religion is just a excuse and/or a means to an end that works in America because of a particular set of historical and legal circumstances.

I've been to a rather notorious gay beach in the northeastern USA. The guys there totally ignore me as if I didn't exist. They have no interest in girls or anything female whatsoever. I'm simply not part of their world. This didn't threaten me or bother me, nor did I demand that they take notice of me or involve me whatever they were doing.

FGM is a barbaric practice, yet I know there are places in the world where it happens and there's not much I can do about it. It's even more maddening that it's usually the older women in these societies that force girls to do it with or without some kind of religious justification.

There are a lot of things in this world that I don't like, but I don't go nuts because other people do them.

I'm talking about people who are so beyond reason they convinced themselves a deadly disease didn't exist even as they lay dying from it. I'm talking about people with means and influence who spend vast sums of money to control my body and try and force the rest of us to live in their twisted virgin purity cult. I'm talking about people who want to destroy all knowledge and end all scientific research as they think that everything that is known or will be known is in just one book. I'm talking about people who literally want to live in their own private Idaho and purge everything and everyone who is not like them.

They don't even know me, they've never met me, yet I am a threat to them because I think independently and speak my mind, I'm compassionate and tolerant of others who are not like me, and have no wish to be eternally barefoot and pregnant and live in their virtual kitchen.

Not even Cher can turn back time, but they keep trying to do it -- and not for a good reason.

Kentish Wrote:
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> Methodism might be seen as moderate today

Methodism has suffered from entryism. Today much of what is peddled as "Methodism" is barely Christian and no one's buying. Their congregations are collapsing and their losing money.

* they're

Anybody, out of interest have you ever been Mormon? If you have, I wonder how your Methodist pastor father took that.

and my mother's father was a Presbyterian minister from a Spanish Protestant Huguenot family, mother's mother's family was Jewish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2024 02:55PM by anybody.

I now see TV adverts for the embarrassing ark place. Surprised me every time.