Is one piece of MORMON scripture I happen to agree with, the essence is: Death-Bed Repentance doesn't count.

However, I don't think it's taught as effectual in Mormonism!

Mormons seem to believe that 'everything will be resolved in the hereafter'; well....

Repentance includes restitution; if you steal from someone, then claim repentance, that doesn't change your obligation to repay the debt!

So, If you steal someone's time with family by some mis-deed, ? how can you 'repay' that time, those lost experiences?

I believe that the reason for Repentance & Forgiving (aside from restitution of stolen goods), in a Christ-like context, is the healing of relationships.

    I worry about people who don't get how ghawd seems to put a good deal of emphasis on "...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

    I think that spanking may be involved, as ghawd seeks to even the scales...  I wonder if there will be any "...go out in the backyard and cut me a switch that I can use on you..." involve?!

I sense an apostolic calling in your future. Where do you want your nudist temple?

When I win the Lotto (Mega and/or PowerBall), I would like to start one just into Nevada, close to St. George ... and find out how many MOs visit / join there...

I don't think there's one in Montana or N.Dakota either...

So I assume anyone who dies in Washington with Idaho plates on their car is going straight to hell. ;)

R U serious?

Who would that be?

License Fraud is a serious problem bc our taxes & fees are the highest nearby, cheating appeals to the 'Sovereign Citizens' & others who are anti-government + others who are otherwise law-abiding. Move-ins have only 30 days to license here, many believe that have until prior plates expire (not true).

Some estimates have indicated that possibly as many as 4% of vehicles here aren't licensed legally, that means 100,000 or more.

Perhaps U can realize that honest motorists resent being taken advantaged of by other's dishonesty (?).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2024 02:28AM by GNPE.

Here we go again. How many legal residences can one person have, GNPE?

https://dor.wa.gov/contact/washington-state-residency-definition

A friend of mine spends her summers in Utah, but this does not make her a Utah resident. She has a permanent home in Maryland, works here, pays taxes here, votes here, etc. Spending a few months somewhere else each year does not make you a legal resident of that state.

Now if someone has permanently moved to Washington State and is simply slow about getting their new license plates, you have a point. But that happens in every state.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2024 05:26AM by summer.

Some people refuse - fail to register for voting bc they want to avoid jury duty, etc.. the 30 day grace period captures lots of folks who want to be considered as visitors, itinerarant workers, etc.

The status - designation of residency should be unequivocal so to be understood & enforced justly , and not a path for dishonesty.

I take that as a yes, all owners of improperly registered vehicles go straight to hell. They do not pass Pearly Gate Go, nor collect 200 Celestial Dollars.

You know, if Washington actually cared, they could fix the problem by either enforcing their law, or aligning their fee structure to be about the same as what neighboring states charge. They apparently consider it not worth the trouble.

The thirty day grace period applies to people who intend to become permanent residents. The website I linked says, "Persons are considered residents of this state for sales and use tax purposes if they take actions which indicate that they intend to live in this state on more than a temporary or transient basis." One can perhaps argue what the words "temporary" or "transient" mean. I note that one of the bullet points on that website is if a person uses a Washington address when they file their Federal return.

Death-Bed Repentance doesn't count.

But willing your home and property to the LDS church does!

The technical term for that is "death-bed remittance."

:)

No idea what Alma 34:34 says. What does it say and how does that pertain to death-bed repentance?

As a Baptist, I think it is possible. It is possible for anyone to be saved by Grace. They have to truly be repentant though, not just sorry because they are going to die and might go to hell in the next hour or two. If they were in the same situation and were suddenly healed, they would still repent and ask the Lord to save them.

In that light, does the Alma 34:34 still say things about that?

Deathbed repentance is Biblically legit; consider the thief on the Cross. One held to his sins, unrepentant, the other came to faith--even if the dialogue was brief, that is the historical assumption.

The problem is that by the time a person who's lived a Godless life, they're probably so entangled in a carnal mindset that they're incapable of a soul-felt faith and repentance. My guess is that, seeing oneself at death's door, the pseudo-penitent is just covering his bases. "Can't hurt, might help, what do I have to lose?" Yes, it is a cliche, but the Lord does know the hearts of men and women.

Edit: I just looked up Alma 34. In this case, the BoM does approximate traditional Christian theology, with a bit of psychology thrown in. A person can procrastinate repentance up to the point where he's cemented in unbelief. Calcification of the heart is what I call it.

GNPE, your point of restitution is valid, up to a point. A person should make amends (AA Step 9) when possible, as an act of faith and conscience, not as a " good work" to gain spiritual absolution.

I'm familiar with one late-in-life conversion. A very successful businessman approached our minister, having just received a very dire Stage 4 cancer diagnosis. It came on suddenly, and was spreading fast. He approached our pastor, had the Gospel of grace explained to him, professed faith in Christ, and was put on the prayer list. The cancer went into remission for about 10 years (I believe he continued medical care--don't know for sure.). During this time, he read the Bible a few times, and became quite an amateur scholar, self-publishing a well-received book of Biblical meditations and light-scholarly research. He taught Sunday School and preached a few times. Yes, the cancer got him, but he was blessed with about a decade of useful and happy years.

Slightly tangential: deathbed statements and confessions are legally valid. Provided they're authenticated, I suppose. Interestingly, surrounded by "children and grandchildren," OJ Simpson made no such statement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2024 08:31PM by caffiend.

>> ...time a person who's lived a Godless life, they're probably so entangled in a carnal mindset that they're incapable of a soul-felt faith...


Good grief, caffiend. For reasons you probably won't understand, comments like that are a reason people leave religion. What a petty god and tribal mentality.

People can confess on their deathbed for other reasons having nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus.

It's not about God, it's about the mind body connection. Some people really are too far gone. You would have to meet one to believe it. Caffiend would have met some in his former career. Most of never encounter the kind of evil that must be experienced to be believed.

The issue is conversion--coming to faith in Christ. All people are called to faith: some do, others don't. The how & why is unique to each individual. It follows, people can and do turn to God at any point or under any circumstances in life: young/old; good/bad fortune; good health/illness or injury; safety/danger; rich/poor.

And so on. My point is that at a certain point, often late, in life hardness often sets in. Conversion (or saving faith, as it's often called) becomes ever less likely.

Looking over Alma 34, I see a precept that is not un- or anti-Biblical: don't wait too long, because powerful factors can enter a person's spirit to resist faith. Paul quotes Isaiah 49:8 in II Corinthians 6:2, "For He [God] says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you. I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."

My reference to deathbed statements had nothing to do with God or religion --it was sort of an aside--, simply that they are considered legally valid.

Thanks for the supportive post, Bradley, but I was just a grunt patrolman and never present at those TV-dramatic scenes.

> Looking over Alma 34, I see a precept that is not
> un- or anti-Biblical. . .

I suspect dagny would wholeheartedly agree.

A counterfeit has to have a reasonable resemblance to the original. You find Ben Franklin on bogus $100 bills, not Alfred E. Newman. So in Alma 34, you find something that approximates an actual Biblical teaching.

That wasn't my point.

>> ...time a person who's lived a Godless life, they're probably so entangled in a carnal mindset that they're incapable of a soul-felt faith...

What does this even mean? It seems to carry a judgmental attitude about it, as if people of faith are somehow superior, or better people, to those without religious faith.

I think it might mean his "carnal mindset" prevents him from remotely understanding those who live a "Godless life."

When someone views the actions of others through their holy book, they only accept conclusions that confirm their bias.

Tangential, I understand, but the "Good Thief" appears to be a fiction. The earliest manuscripts do not include that, so it probably was a later addition. Besides, thieves were put to hard labor- only an insurrectionist would be crucified. The best rending of that scene is from the earliest Gospel, Mark, which says that even those who were crucified hurled abuse at him (Jesus)

Fwiw, boyh New Testament & D& C tell restitution should / must be 4 X the value of item(s) wrongfully taken...

>> As a Baptist, I think it is possible. It is possible for anyone to be saved by Grace. They have to truly be repentant though, not just sorry because they are going to die and might go to hell in the next hour or two.

Roman Catholics believe in that. You can genuinely repent on your deathbed and be good to go.

A Mormon friend of mine who fell away from the church, but was diagnosed at a young age of advanced cancer, returned to the church. I suspect that her return was mainly for comfort and community support as she approached her death. It probably also comforted her TBM parents.

The question still remains:

If you've wrongfully taken something that belongs to someone else, Is your repentance valid if you keep-retain the items (or other things) wrongfully taken?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2024 01:14PM by GNPE.

Jeez, I turn my back for a few hours, and a revival meeting breaks out.

Discussing the finer points of deathbed repentance? Really?

Y'all realize that Christian theology is every bit as mythical as Buddhist or Hindu or Zoroastrian theology, and you don't give the tiniest rat's patoot about how Krishna or Buddha feels about deathbed repentance. You consider that 100% irrelevant, no qualms whatsoever.

Yet for those of us who consider the finer points of Christian deathbed repentance to be 100% irrelevant, it is because of carnal entanglement and yada yada yada.

Oh, please.

With an overwhelmingly high probability, you are Christian because you were born into a predominantly Christian culture and Christian family. I suppose an asterisk is needed for those born into a Mormon family, because a noticeable slice of them there other Christians don't consider Mormons Christian because they are not trinitarian. But that's a whole separate thread.

If you had been born in India instead, you would almost certainly be Hindu, or maybe a Moslem or Christian. If you were Hindu, you'd have a whole menagerie of gods. They consider that perfectly normal, and wonder how we get along with just one god.

It's like Mormons who can't grasp why we are not distraught at not having our own Prophet, Seer and Revelator. They have one, and they think that is Really Important, and makes them God's Favorites. They pity those of us who don't get it.

Good Lord, people. (Irony intended)

          I was meant to say that!!!!

If a crook gets to keep what they stole or cheated from someone, they’ve learned that what they did is O.K., (fake or ‘real’) religion shouldn’t condone that…

Simple, yes?

Anything said in a death bed is said under duress.

Perhaps I shouldn't have referred specifically to death-bed, I meant well people thinking that Repentance isn't required for sometimes long-ago actions that have harmed others, 'sins'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2024 12:34AM by GNPE.

Shit ..I was counting on deathbed repentance

ChurchCo told my former that her hate & lies were O.K., no need for Repentance or Forgiving...

Maybe she'll learn better sometime, Maybe not...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2024 02:06AM by GNPE.