I grew up with dogs. Lots of dogs. Cats too.

My father hunted and had bird dogs — pointers and retrievers.

My family didn't have a farm or livestock, but we had dogs, so I did dog training for my 4-H project.

People who torture or kill animals for seemingly no reason have serious mental health issues.

She not only shot an untrained adolescent dog she never bothered to train, she also shot a goat too...for just being a goat.

The other strange thing is that she's bragging about it

I've had dogs rip apart bags of trash, gnaw on books, mess up the floor, chew furniture, etc. but I scolded them and kept working with them until they learned not to do that. I had a cat that liked to bring "gifts" -- some dead, some still alive. That's just what cats do. In the cat world, it's the cat's way of showing appreciation. You don't kill them for it.

I'm not a psychologist nor do I play one on TV, but to me it seems she has a few screws loose in her head.

##########

John Wesley Hardin, who once shot a man for snoring

https://truewestmagazine.com/article/shot-for-snoring/

Eighteen-year-old John Wesley Hardin was staying in the American House in Abilene, Kansas, with Gip Clements. Hardin’s biographer, Leon Metz, speculates that Couger arrived at the hotel before the two Texans and went to sleep.

Metz reports, “Clements and Hardin disrobed and crashed headlong onto the lumpy mattress as Couger’s raucous snoring ripped through the paper-thin walls. At first, Hardin and Clements drunkenly shouted for the man to roll over. Couger may have sat up in bed and tried to read a newspaper. Then he dozed off again. The snoring restarted, this time louder and more aggravating. To get Couger’s serious attention, Hardin and Clements fired a few rounds through the wall. The bullets were likely intended to demonstrate the limits of their exasperation, rather than kill Couger. However, when the snoring abruptly stopped, and a cold silence echoed from the adjoining room, the two cowboys realized they had fired a little low. Knowing [Marshal Wild Bill] Hickok would not understand, Hardin and Gip Clements decided this might be a good time to depart for Texas.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 08:09AM by anybody.

Here's an analysis I read (lightly edited) that I think gets to the heart of it.

[S]he describes a hunting trip she went on with her puppy, Cricket, a 14-month-old wirehair pointer. Cricket was a bit wild, and Noem thought that encouraging her to kill pheasants would calm her down. Cricket didn't do a good job. She scared all the birds away. On the way home, she jumped out of Noem's truck and attacked a local family's chickens and killed a number of them. She tried to stop the puppy but Cricket bit her. Noem was embarrassed, paid the farmer for the chickens, took the dog home, and shot her. Then Noem shot a goat that liked to chase her children. Later she shot three of her elderly horses.

Look at all the red meat here:

Noem is a hunter.
She likes dogs.
She owns a truck.
She's a good markswoman (except taking the goat down took two shots).
When her puppy does something bad, she owns up to it and pays for the damage it caused.
She can make tough decisions when it is necessary (like shooting her own puppy).
She is unemotional about shooting horses that have been in her family for 25 years.

What a tough woman! Boy could she kick the sh*t out of Xi Jinping if she was sent to China. And her shooting exploits get her in the news again. Pick me! Pick me! Pick me, please!


In short she thought the story made her look like the biggest bad*ss in town, totally unafraid to make tough decisions. It did make her look bad, and like an *ss, but that is not the same thing as bad*ss.

Apparently her editors either agreed with her assessment, or were unable to dissuade her that the story made her sound tone deaf and soulless.

In any case her national political career is now over, permanently. This story will have more legs than Mitt tying his dog's crate to the car roof and driving to Canada.


I just read the "snitch line" thread, so I'd like to add: Noem thought that "cruelty IS the point" was a valid selling point. Perhaps it is, but it is possible to go way too far, as she now knows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 09:33AM by Brother Of Jerry.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> She is unemotional about shooting horses that have
> been in her family for 25 years.


This woman is sick.

Just like a lot of parents shouldn't be allowed to have kids, many people shouldn't be allowed to own, or be around domestic animals. If her own principles were applied to her, she wouldn't be around today.

So what's the normal life span of a horse ?

Are people going to be mad at me for shooting porcupines and racoons ?
I once caught a badger in a live trap but it destroyed the trap and escaped. I was going to relocate it because I like badgers since they eat rodents.
When I encounter females wearing shredded pants I ask them if they got into a fight with a badger. "Fashion" is horrible.

BoJ nailed it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 01:09PM by blindguy.

Rural, farm & ranch area with nearest town 22 miles away.

A dog that starts killing chickens and other fowl is often not able to stop. Any dog harassing and/or killing livestock or wildlife gets shot - if we see it or know of it. If it happened once - confine the dog and work with it before you kill it. If it does not stop and you can prevent the dog from being around the stock & such - it can often be given to city folks where this won't be a problem.

Failure to train a dog is criminal.

OrigamiDude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rural, farm & ranch area with nearest town 22
> miles away.
>
> A dog that starts killing chickens and other fowl
> is often not able to stop. Any dog harassing
> and/or killing livestock or wildlife gets shot -
> if we see it or know of it. If it happened once -
> confine the dog and work with it before you kill
> it. If it does not stop and you can prevent the
> dog from being around the stock & such - it can
> often be given to city folks where this won't be a
> problem.
>
> Failure to train a dog is criminal.

I think your point is absolutely critical to understanding this story. Mrs. Nome was raised in an environment where shooting dogs that attacked yours and others' cattle was essential to your survival and she didn't see anything wrong with making that a selling point for her nationally. What this story shows is the very divergent attitudes between rural, mostly white Americans and urban dwellers towards dogs.

I should add not all people view dogs as being pets. For example, dog is considered a delicacy in some parts of southeastern Asia, and closer to home, traditional Navajos have never let dogs into their houses as pets.

Put another way, whether or not you think that Mrs. Nome's actions are those of a psychopath will depend largely on how you view the role and worth of the puppy she shot.

There are plenty of shocked rural people who don't think this is a cut and dry matter.

Here are a couple of videos.


#########


Texas Paul comments on South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem's insane excuses for her puppy scandal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEr6Y8zBmvU


#########

Dog trainer speaks out about Gov. Kristi Noem who shot her puppy

#########


The governor of SD has shot her Wire Hair Pointer for killing chickens and being otherwise "untrainable." Marc Goldberg is a dog trainer and coauthor of several books, written with the Monks of New Skete. He talks about this situation and how it could have been prevented.

Marc Goldberg books with the Monks of New Skete:
LET DOGS BE DOGS
THE ART OF TRAINING YOUR DOG
THE JOY OF PLAYING WITH YOUR DOG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErulXnLRwU8



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 12:00PM by anybody.

Exactly, anybody.

I live in a very rural county, and it’s not normal here for people to go shooting their livestock and working animals willy nilly. Matter of fact, people will name and shame you for mistreating livestock and working animals, report you, and basically make your life a living hell.

People pull over when they see loose dogs and cats, try to get at least a picture if not the animal itself, and will post it on several FB groups for lost and found pets. Fences for Fido erects free fences and includes insulated dog houses and spay/neuter and emergency vet services for outdoor dogs that are tied out or frequently escape.

They will kick you out of Washington State if you don’t own a dog. If you mistreat it, people will keep the dog and kick YOU out.

ETA: Fences for Fido. https://www.fencesforfido.org/

EATA: Besides lucking out adopting a dog that’s eager to please, this book helped immensely. “ Training the Best Dog Ever: A 5-Week Program Using the Power of Positive Reinforcement” https://www.amazon.com/Training-Best-Dog-Ever-Reinforcement/dp/0761168850?dplnkId=a3133fc4-a313-48d1-b0e8-8969db1c5551&nodl=1



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 01:32PM by Beth.

deleted to relocate



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2024 01:04AM by caffiend.

The disturbing thing is the cruelty and bragging about it as if that is a favorable personality trait.

I've had elderly suffering pets that needed to be euthanized. It was absolutely devastating and done in the most humane way possible after exhaustive consultation. It's what I would want for myself or my loved ones. IMO, that is completely different than shooting a rambunctious untrained puppy or smelly goat just to get rid of them.

Everyone knows the Western movie trope of the cowboy who has to reluctantly shoot his fatally injured horse. He does it because he has to, not because he wants to.

But the dog killed chickens. Blood atonement.

Even in the country, shooting your animals is rare ,and her attitude is downright nasty, yet another example of performative cruelty by the right (see the UK's immigration policy for another).

She's clearly trying too hard here, as further evidenced by her "remembering" a meeting (recounted to her advantage) with Kim Jong Il which, um, err, never occurred. I hope she disappears up her own fundament.

> . . . yet another
> example of performative cruelty by the right . .

Damn. I get tired of replacing all those microphones.

I assume that all those posting here who are critical of Noem are vegetarians.

https://thehumaneleague.org/article/factory-farming-animal-cruelty#:~:text=Factory%20farms%20often%20put%20profit%20before%20welfare%20when,by%20being%20improperly%20stunned%20before%20subsequent%20killing%20steps.

After all, our sensitivity and aversion to cruelty of animals should extend beyond the killing of our favored domestic companions.

Although, as many suggest, there seems to be an attitude problem with Noem, what is morally preferable, killing a dog with a cavalier attitude and questionable motives; or the habitual sanctioning of cruelty of farm-factory animals in order to satisfy one's culinary self-interest? Damn Noem! But those chicken tenders are soooooooo good!

Yeah. No.

She chose to have to animals.

Cruelty abounds, and it can be mitigated. I’m not a vegetarian, hell, I have working ducks that sometimes have to be culled, but it’s not easy. Matter of fact, I still have three drakes that are past their usefulness to me and are borderline menaces to my working ducks, yet they are still here.

You have to put in the time, get the expertise and experience and not be lazy. Noem’s cruelty is born of laziness.

Please take your strawman out of this conversation.

Richt! It's okay for someone to be cruel to animals so long as they are not lazy about it. Tell me, do you train your animals before you slaughter and eat them?

I'm quite sure that the employees of factory farms are hard-working. Well, good for them! No problem.

You pick your poison.

I live next to a river. The river is in bad shape due to runoff from lawns, farms, various pollutants over the years, you know, stuff people do.

When I moved here I had ~ a half acre of lawn and a compacted and over-tilled area to grow annual vegetables. The only edible things here were the invasive blackberries and I guess I could make some nettle tea if that was my jam, but not really.

I started reading about permaculture. I started reading about ducks. I started reading about being a steward for this land that is connected to the endangered resident orcas in the Salish Sea and the world at large.

You know what ducks do well? They aerate compacted soil. They poop liquid gold all over the place. They help build tilth. They lay eggs that are nutrient-rich which is a blessing to some people in my county who are poor as dirt. They eat this ridiculous grass. They make room for the clover, which they also enjoy. They make it so I don’t have to buy any fertilizer. They eat slugs and slug eggs, so I don’t have to deal with those. The PNW is a fabulous climate for them. The swallows are here now and clearing the yard of all duck feathers they can find.

You know what they don’t do? They don’t jack up the river. Sometimes they like to sit in the thyme and sage but that’s okay. Sometimes they eat some tomatoes off the vine, but that’s okay, too. They are fantastic and integral to keeping the 30-some trees that help keep the river bank from eroding healthy, and they’re integral to enabling me to start planting a food forest. Homeless people live under a bridge next to my yard. They stop and watch the ducks sometimes. We talk, and if they like duck eggs, I’ve got some hard boiled ones in the fridge to share.

So, yeah. Killing them is shit. I hate it. But this is how I’ve chosen to manage this patch of land. Got a better idea?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 11:59PM by Beth.

Henry Bemis Wrote:

>
> After all, our sensitivity and aversion to cruelty
> of animals should extend beyond the killing of our
> favored domestic companions.

Yeah, certainly. But like it or not, in the good ol' US of A, there's a hierarchy and dogs are right up there at the top.

The only time in my adult life that I've been vocally paralyzed with overwhelming emotional devastation was when I got a call informing me that my pointer had died. I won't ever have that kind of attachment to a cow or goat. Maybe you have different preferences.

I used to run my pointer in field competitions. I can think of several people from my club who would have jumped at the chance to take that wirehair off Ms. Noem's hands. That woman can eat turds while she cries about the loss of her career.

The only time in my adult life that I've been vocally paralyzed with overwhelming emotional devastation was when I got a call informing me that my pointer had died. I won't ever have that kind of attachment to a cow or goat. Maybe you have different preferences.

COMMENT: No, I also am a dog lover, and I am as repulsed by Noem's conduct as most others here. Notwithstanding, it would be nice to have some sort of objective, trans-cultural argument for such intuitions, rather than just table-pounding outrage. She kills dogs cavalierly at her convenience; others kill cows and chickens cavalierly (and in a much less humane way) for money and human convenience. (Although, I am a vegetarian).

So where does morality enter this picture? Frankly, for my money (and her politics notwithstanding), she appears to be on the higher moral ground on this issue. After all, cows and chickens do nothing to deserve their fate. At least Cricket was a harmful nuisance.

and an young, untrained dog at that.

That's the humans fault, not the dogs.

One explanation I heard is she feels she needs to tell stories of ‘female toughness’ in order to pander to her base which consists of a bunch of ‘macho men.’. Gotta be a ‘tough and beautiful woman’in order to get the vote of those guys.

Also, her book claims that she visited and negotiated with Kim Jong Un. That has been shown to be a completely fabricated story, as is the story of her “cancelling” and appointment with Macron of France.

You mean she didn't also knock out Mike Tyson, win the Iditarod and was a Navy SEAL sniper? Shocking!

Its political suicide in America to admit you killed or were in any way cruel to a dog. (except Mitt Romney who somehow survived putting his dog on the roof of his car.)

Humans on the other hand, there's an entire party in America that's proud of its cruelty towards 'others', (Liberals, migrants, Muslims, Jews, minorities, women, atheists, communists)

and I think that describes the divide in this country, cruelty vs empathy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2024 05:16PM by schrodingerscat.

She presumably knew the dog had training problems. So she took it out to chase pheasants to see if that would calm it down? Really?

Then she stops at a ranch where there are chickens running around loose, and she has her dog loose in the back of the truck. Bet her dog thought “damn, I couldn’t catch any of those other birds, but I can really make up for lost ground here. Woo Hoo!”

What could go wrong.

Rather than hire a trainer, or take the dog to a shelter, she shoots it. Plus shoots a goat for acting like a goat.

But what I think provoked a lot of the outrage is that she then tried to convert the story into a political chit. Euwww.

Disclaimer: I am an avowed city slicker who was born on the west coast, now lives on the east coast and considers most of the rest of the country the "flyover" states. I am a coastal elite and damn proud of it.


SINCE WHEN IS A WIRE HAIRED TERRIER CONSIDERED A WORKING/HUNTING DOG?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??????

Wire Haired Pointer

Thank you LW. I stand corrected.

Looked up the breed on the AKC website, and found this:
“German Wirehaired Pointers are very intelligent, responsive, and eager to please, so they are generally easy to train. Early socialization and puppy training classes are recommended and help to ensure that the dog grows into a well-adjusted, well-mannered companion. The breed is smart, talented, versatile, and athletic and excels in a wide range of canine sports and activities. German Wirehairs crave human companionship, and undesirable behaviors can result if they are regularly left alone for long periods of time.”

Makes it all the more tragic that this stupid b*tch could have rehomed this dog to a loving family. If it failed as a working dog,YOU failed IT by not properly training it.

Noem is poster child for her movement. Ignorant and cruel for cruel ignorance’s sake. A complete sociopath.

+1

I had to put down my GWP of 15 years and 2 months, In January. Very bad day. We bought a new GWP puppy in December for a backup. She turned 6 months old last week. They are high energy doggos. AKC rates breeds on a 1-4 scale with 1 being the lowest, chill dogs. Golden Retrievers are level 1. GWPs and GSPs are level 4. Only 2 speeds; Off(sleeping)or 200 MPH. They're smarter and faster than just about any other breed. Fastest dog in the Dog park, as was our original. They need a lot of space to burn up energy (which if Noem's was on a farm, they have space). They need love and attention and purpose. Be prepared to need rotator cuff surgery from your shoulder wearing out throwing balls, sticks, toys-whatever. They're high intensity dogs. But, being trained and paid attention to, they are incredibly loyal and fun. With the cutest faces in the dog world. Most dogs are said to have 20,000 times the sense of smell than humans and GWP's have 50 times those dogs. They're good hunting dogs, (Nose down, not nose up hunters) and they use them a lot to sniff for drugs and bombs. There are 5 GSP's that work in the SLC airport sniffing explosives. How anyone could shoot one is waaaay beyond my understanding. I wish I knew how to post a pic here. I have a pic of my puppy watching TV showing a pic of the dog that Noem shot in the head. That dog looks like the big sister to our Pretzel pup. I'd like to put Noem in that gravel pit, rubbed down with bacon and turn loose half a dozen starving Pit Bulls. That would be justice.

Right. You have to pick a dog that is right for you and your lifestyle. And if for some reason you got that wrong, then rehome the dog. Noem's dog was never vicious towards humans.

A friend of mine breeds lovely AKC dogs and shows at Westminster every year. She has it written into her contracts with buyers that if they don't want a dog for any reason, the dog needs to be returned to her. I don't think this is unusual. She has no shortage of friends and acquaintances who want her dogs, and who provide them with wonderful homes. What Noem did is inexcusable. The dog could have been returned to the breeder or rehomed.

What she did was cruelty for cruelty's sake.

You nailed it. Hopefully, none of her kids turn out to be gay. If they are, they need to stay away from Mom and her gravel pit.

My pup looking at the GWP that Noem shot.

See if these pics work;

https://imgur.com/a/qBSd7LL

https://imgur.com/a/VKRJp2a

How could anyone shoot a doggo like this?
Noem's political career should be over.

I think she could do better with the animal treatment. The Golden Rule should apply to animals also - sorta. But I like her political orientation and it helps she is good looking.

A good heart lasts longer than the looks.

blindguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OrigamiDude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > Failure to train a dog is criminal.
>
> I think your point is absolutely critical to
> understanding this story. Mrs. Nome was raised in
> an environment where shooting dogs that attacked
> yours and others' cattle was essential to your
> survival and she didn't see anything wrong with
> making that a selling point for her nationally.
> What this story shows is the very divergent
> attitudes between rural, mostly white Americans
> and urban dwellers towards dogs.
>
> I should add not all people view dogs as being
> pets. For example, dog is considered a delicacy in
> some parts of southeastern Asia, and closer to
> home, traditional Navajos have never let dogs into
> their houses as pets.

Dogs are unclean to the Moslems. The Taliban used the dogs we abandoned in Afghanistan for target practice.

BTW, what does this issue have to do with WHITE Americans? Would an experienced black or Hispanic rancher done anything different?

> BTW, what does this issue have to do with WHITE
> Americans? Would an experienced black or Hispanic
> rancher done anything different?

blindguy wrote: "The difference between rural, mostly White Americans and urban...having divergent attitudes".

No doubt some norms and experiences vary between urban and rural locations. Also, there is a significantly greater majority White population in rural locations in the U.S. Whether all ranchers would react the same way I don't know. But I didn't take it to be a colour thing. I'm occasionally wrong though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2024 02:05AM by Nightingale.

Some folks just don't know how or when to STFU, she's obviously one of those.

ETA: "Not all truth is useful"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2024 11:41AM by GNPE.

Kristi has an old school farming mindset. My uncle put his own dogs down and a dog that killed livestock and could not be controlled on the farm was not tolerated. You get used to killing stuff on a farm. You hit cows in the head with a hammer and you wring necks. Farm people can do things that people who don’t have to deal with killing things they raised can’t. It’s why the military liked to put farm kids in the infantry. They were used to killing.

A reputable breeder will normally take a dog back that is not a good fit for a family for whatever reason. There are also plenty of breed-specific rescues. A wirehaired pointer should be able to find a suitable home. Kristi was just being lazy and needlessly cruel. I don't know of anyone, city or country, that approved of her behavior.

There are a hundred things you could do with a bird dog other than shoot it for killing birds.

The POTUS' dog Commander only bit 24 people, seems to me the dog should be put down.

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=19030ec4dd90a0a6JmltdHM9MTcxNDg2NzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0xZTA3OTVkNS1hMWVkLTY2NjctMGViNi04NmNmYTA1NzY3ZjMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4Mg&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=1e0795d5-a1ed-6667-0eb6-86cfa05767f3&psq=dog+bite+secret+service&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmJjLmNvbS9uZXdzL3dvcmxkLXVzLWNhbmFkYS02ODM2NjMwNiM6fjp0ZXh0PVByZXNpZGVudCUyMEpvZSUyMEJpZGVuJTI3cyUyMGRvZyUyMENvbW1hbmRlciUyMGJpdCUyMFVTJTIwU2VjcmV0LHRhY3RpY3MlMkMlMjBhZHZpc2luZyUyMGFnZW50cyUyMHRvJTIwJTIyZ2l2ZSUyMGxvdHMlMjBvZiUyMHJvb20lMjIu&ntb=1

It probably should have been. It would be classed as a dangerous dog after 3 bites.

My friend’s dog bit her, he was startled. The ER doc who saw her said 2 more reports and you’ll have to put him down.

Yet the dog is alive and well and no longer around the Secret Service people. There are alternatives to shooting a dog that is unruly. Who'd have thunk?

Shooting a dog that was a breed bred to chase birds for chasing birds seems particularly dense.

Joe knows who to call if Commander keeps getting into trouble.

Well in South Dakota what she did wasn’t that big of a deal. Where she lived nobody would want a dog like that. Farmers are busy running the farm and they don’t have time to waste on dogs.

City people aren’t going to get it. If she really was a political huxster she wouldn’t have written about it. She will finish her term as governor and go back to life out of politics. With this big of a PR blunder she has no future in national politics.

It’s a good example why famous people hire publicists and organizations have PR people. It keeps people from destroying their careers.

Or all of the fuss is from a loud minority and her base will remember that at least she was honest. Maybe they want a governor who's a little intimidating.

Following the conservative media, any chance she might have had to make the VP list has been shot full of holes.

But, but her teeth!

Noem’s teeth, heya
Noem’s teeth, heya
Heya heya heya, hey

Are they false?
Are they real?
Are they plastic?
Are they steel?


“John Wayne’s Teeth” from “Smoke Signals”
https://youtu.be/xPnV2392Tck

I love that Northern Plains Indian accent. I saw enough First Nations people in the Dakotas and Manitoba that I was exposed to that accent fairly often, and it kind of grew on me. That was such a sweet 'road trip' movie.

That particular final scene looks for all the world like it was filmed just outside Moab, UT. I think I know the exact spot.

A lot of it was filmed in Coer d’Alene. Sherman Alexie grew up on the Spokane rez, but they wouldn’t let him film it on that rez.

I bet they feel as stupid at Stanford Law School does for not letting “Legally Blonde” be filmed there.

ETA: “The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven” is one of my favorite collections of short stories.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2024 09:49PM by Beth.

I saw Sherman Alexie live one time in Bismarck, ND. He sounded just like the movie script. One thing I especially remember was that the auditorium was sold out and filled with people standing in the back. There are two reservations within easy driving distance of Bismarck. He told all the kids to come up and sit on stage, and give their seats to the elders standing in back. "They're less flexible than you kids, and would really appreciate a seat."

That got a laugh, and a bunch of kids went up and sat on stage. He said the fire marshal would probably have a cow, but by then they'd be gone.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or all of the fuss is from a loud minority and her
> base will remember that at least she was honest.
> Maybe they want a governor who's a little
> intimidating.

That was obviously what she thought. She misread the room.

She also shot a goat because it was inconvenient to her. Not because she had an excess of male goats and she wanted it for its meat. Not because it was irretrievably sick and needed to be humanely put down. No, it was inconvenient. She's a sociopath. Someday someone may find her to be inconvenient.

+1.0x10^10