Okay, so Easter is coming up. And Lent and Palm Sunday and so on. And apparently Mormons are starting to horn in on it in an attempt to appear more "Christian". But here's the think (as I posted a while ago): all those things are associated with a specific branch of Christianity- High Church or liturgical groups (like Catholics, Orthodox, or Anglican)- *and that is the exact opposite of what the other main branch of Christianity considers as comprising "true" Christianity!!!* (I wish we could do italics here). These are exactly the "works" that the Protestants see as actual evil, because they do not require any sort of personal commitment, just a bunch of procedures. Sooooo- please let us maintain that distinction. It is wrong to call it "Christian" because it jives with only one side of the movement. It is more liturgical. The Baptists and Pentecostals and so on do not technically see it as more Christian at all.

I don't know how all this will shake out, because the label "Christian" is becoming more and more meaningless. But the LDS church needs to be careful. Mormonism is already in the hot seat because of the temples, which are pure liturgy sites. And now they want to add even more ceremonial baggage. So which is it, Q-15? A religion based on ostentatious ceremonies, or a personal experience of the Christ? The Mormon church, as always, wants to have it both ways depending mainly on which side is on top at the moment with no real regard to any sort of theological consistency. In the words of William Yeats, the center cannot hold.

Thank you for putting up with my rant.

I'm pretty sure the average Mormon doesn't know squat about liturgical anything. All they know is to make a bigger fuss about Easter because...Jesus!...Christians!

I'll buy it when they put Honesty & Kindness, true, sincere Repentance & Forgiving ahead of tithing, attendance, PH, & 'Follow the Prophet'.


amen

I fully understand the sentiment. But the Christianity that emerged from Paul says that all you have to do to be saved is accept the authority of Jesus to "save" you. That's all there is to it. One simple trick is all it takes. In that paradigm, Jesus's teachings are only secondary and in fact are a distraction because of all that "works" thing. Paul said you never have to concern yourself with all that Love your Neighbor stuff- or whatever Jesus actually said, because Paul died before the Sermon on the Mount was actually written out. And that version of Christianity won out big time because it tells everyone that they do not, in fact, have to actually try to "be like Jesus" or do much of anything that takes effort because the main point of Jesus is the Atonement which makes everybody fantastic as long as they accept that that is why Jesus came here.

Please don't try to make sense of anything Christians say.

IMO.That's all there is to it.

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka

slskipper wrote in part:

"...the main point of Jesus is the Atonement..."

Ah! Your LDS upbringing is showing. The whole point of Christianity, no matter which branch you choose, is Christ's crucifixion (good Friday) and resurrection (Easter Sunday) and not the atonement in the garden the night before good Friday.

I think you retain the common view many Mormons have of general Christian teaching on the sufficiency of Christ alone for salvation. While the majority Christian view is certainly salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone it does not end there. In Mormonism the works and ordinance hoops have to be jumped to receive salvation. In Christian belief (can't speak for RC and Orthodox) works and such are seen as the demonstration of salvation already received by grace through faith. If a professed Christian's life is not marked by Christian action, you might be justified in being sceptical of their claim.

The above in reply to slskipper.

One comment about the liturgical churches - along with Catholic, Episcopal, and the various flavors of Orthodox, I would add Lutheran to that list. Particularly in the NE USA, the Midwest and the northern Great Plains, those four groups constitute a substantial majority of Christian denominations.

The more Evangelical/Bible-beltish denominations may not make a big deal of the liturgical calendar, but even they make a much bigger deal of Easter itself than the LDS did. I am pretty confident that what spurred the LDS emphasis on Easter was that they did focus groups with non-Mormons to find out what they didn't like about LDS Inc, and one of the consistent complaints was that they very nearly ignore Easter. I remember hearing that from people 60 years ago who had been Catholic and had joined the Mormon Church back East. They thought it was odd to the point of being kind of creepy.

^^^ this ^^^

Easter offends no christians. Protestants and Catholics (big and small c), Orthodox or not, liturgical or not, denominational or not, etc. No matter which subgroup of Christian you look at, they all celebrate Easter. The crucifixion and resurrection are bedrock tenets of christian faith.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^ this ^^^
>
> Easter offends no christians. Protestants and
> Catholics (big and small c), Orthodox or not,
> liturgical or not, denominational or not, etc. No
> matter which subgroup of Christian you look at,
> they all celebrate Easter. The crucifixion and
> resurrection are bedrock tenets of christian
> faith.

After the Reformation, a lot of hardline Protestants dropped Christmas and Easter. Oliver Cromwell banned Easter, and the Puritans in early colonial America would not have celebrated it either.

I still know of strict Protestants who will not celebrate Easter. Like Christmas, Easter has absorbed a lot of non-Christian/quasi-pagan things like eggs and Easter bunnies. I know the egg is supposed to be the stone that rolled away etc, but that sounds like a cope for a pagan hangover.

I don't know if JWs count but they do not celebrate Easter or believe Jesus was crucified. (They think he was executed on a pole and the cross is a pagan symbol.)

Without old fashioned Tent Revivals they won't be accepted in many parts of the US.

Those traveling shows are often the highlight of entertainment in many places.

Tent revivals have largely been replaced by the megachurch phenomenon, I believe. And yes, the LDS church seems to be trying to cash in on that angle as well. I'm thinking of the recent youth bashes with all kinds of Jesus music and Jesus testimonials and Jesus hosannas. That's what I think, anyway.

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm thinking of the recent youth bashes
> with all kinds of Jesus music and Jesus
> testimonials and Jesus hosannas.

Really?

Really. Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyA5KvivUdk

Sounds like they're trying to be more Catholic.

They want to be more "mainstream". The problem is, they haven't figured out which stream to be the main ones of: Establishment WASPs (Episcopalians from the society pages), Baptists (Praise Jesus!), Catholics (Lent and Stations of the Cross and Palm Sunday), or maybe right-wing anti-Communists (Cleon Skousen and pro-business and to hell with anything remotely resembling a coherent theology)? But they cannot leave behind the Last-Days/neo-Masonic hodge-podge that Joseph Smith left them with when he died. So all they have left is obedience to the Q-15 as the only thing that really matters.

I think you left out the far-right, "evangelical" populism part.

What audience are the Brethren trying to appeal to?

There's not a big pool of people in America who want to be religious or regard it as an essential part of their lives, and the current big "E" Evangelical movement is more about tribalism than it is about faith and religion.

As others have pointed out, there are vast differences between mainstream Protestant Christianity and Mormonism (monotheism, the Trinity, original sin, etc.). Evangelicals won't ever accept Mormon theology, but they do see them as useful allies in the "culture" war.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2025 12:04PM by anybody.

My introduction to LDS/Mormons was 50 years ago.

Among other things, I fell in love with the wonderful LDS woman.

We broke up a year later when so told me about the promises she made when she was a young teenager, she called them goals and objectives.

If the LDS teachings were what they are now, we might have gotten married and I think have a wonderful life.

Too late, how things have changed, LDS isn't anything like it was 50 years ago.

You're overthinking it :)

All TSCC wants and needs is to be accepted as mainstream, not "weird". "Christian" without further qualification is accepted as mainstream. That's about it.

Good luck with that. 'Weird' is baked into their religion.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good luck with that. 'Weird' is baked into their
> religion.

Also, Eric3 says: "Christian" without further qualification is accepted as mainstream."

I get what you're saying except people in non-mo Christian churches don't in large numbers consider that Mormons are Christians. Sorry Mormons.

It's partly what Mormons do believe and partly what they don't believe that keeps them on the outside.

I get that Mormons don't understand that and/or don't accept it.

Just as one example - the pretty much most important Christian teaching is who is Jesus. The Mormon Church in essence teaches that he is created:

"Mormons believe Jesus was the spirit child of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. The Son of God was the product of divine procreation."

JWs also teach that Jesus was created.

That is clanging extraordinaire to mainstream Christians who teach that Jesus is *not* created.

Mainstream Christian faiths teach that "The Bible directly states that Jesus is God in a number of passages." (i.e. *not* created).

To state that he is created is considered by mainstreamers to be blasphemy (not a good thing).

Also, as an aside, no mainstream Christian churches teach that God is married.

Not that it's up to individual Christians to determine or judge in everyday life who is or is not a Christian but beliefs and actions both indicate to practising Christians a person's position in that regard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2025 08:56PM by Nightingale.

"Mormons believe Jesus was the spirit child of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. The Son of God was the product of divine procreation."

That is something a guy with 30 wives, many of them teenagers, would come up with. But just because it comes from a pervert doesn’t mean it's blasphemy.

Normalizing Christian heresy to become Christian does seem nonsensical, but anything is possible with Mormon God.

Ha! Not only was Jesus created, but so was God. And it’s turtles all the way down.

But remember, God and Jesus have actual physical bodies. That means God essentially raped Mary. But maybe not because an omniscient God would know Mary would give consent after the fact.

Looks like they accept the Pope now. Dallin Oaks said this:
“It means so much for the restored Church and its members to have a temple in Rome, which is the capital of all Christianity and a place where our predecessors as Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ gave their lives. It is a blessing of the Lord to be here and to have our spirits lifted and to receive the inspiration of the Lord to perform the tasks assigned to us as part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Only Roman Catholics think Rome is "the capital of all Christianity".

I was thinking of how the church could have slive reenactment of riding donkeys and then one member of the Q15 could dress as Jesus and be forced to carry his cross in downtown Salt Lake City. Heck, think of all the good inhabitants of willing to pay money to publicly torture and humiliate the modern savior. Lots of people to curse, spit and kick an apostle carrying a humongous cross. And then it would be quite the sight to see Elder Pickles on a cross at Temple Square. He could advise the crowd not to sit down until he is resurrected.