What do you get by leaving the Church, once you've realized that it's false?

I'm really curious about this. Do people leave just because they realize that the Church is founded on a mountain of lies and has an embarrassing history? Do they leave because they'd rather do what they want to do with their time rather than sacrificing it to the Church? What is it?

The reason that I ask is because I've observed something that I think is important. We all need a community to fit into if we're going to stand any chance at happiness. It's within a community that our lives play out, just like a story.

Life is an awfully lonely play if you're the only actor and there's no audience.

If you define your identity as a Mormon, then you're a Mormon. If you define your identity as an ex-Mormon, then there's an ex-Mormon community--most easily accessible online--for support, entertainment, socialization, etc. If you decide to become a secular humanist and attend various secular meetings, then you define yourself within that community. I imagine that we're part of many different communities simultaneously, but that one is the primary group that confers on you what the sociologists call a "master status." (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_status.) The other groups may overlap, but they're secondary. It's within that primary group that we play out the main stories of our lives.

While I seriously disagree with Steve Benson on life after death, I think that it's helpful to live life *as if* this were the only one that we'll ever have, *as if* this is it, and this is *really* it. After all, it *could* be. I'd be guilty of fundamentalism to suggest otherwise. Therefore, to err on the side of caution, we ought to live as if everything that we do, and that other people do, matters supremely here and now.

Consider that you're a boy born into Mormonism, and at the age of 19, you realize that it's false and was founded by a confidence man, pedophile, polygynist, fraud, asshole, narcissist, and murderer. (Joey blew at least two men away at Carthage Jail.) At the same time, you have a loving family. You're the light of your parents' lives. They beam with pride and awe at the prospect of your going on a mission. Your brothers and sisters love you. All of you are very close, you've got a ton of friends, and you fit into the Mormon system so well that the Church would love for a PBS documentary on Mormonism to profile you as the perfect Mormon family. You're straight, and you've got a hot, highly intelligent vivacious, and fun girlfriend whom you adore, and who adores you. Everything is set up for you to live a fantastic life.

Would you leave?

Further, let's pretend that you're studying sociology, and that you already know a lot. You understand the upsides and the downsides of leaving. If you leave, you lose everything and have to start all over on your own. You know that the chances of finding what you've already got a *second* time are low. So, would you decide, like Thomas Stuart Ferguson, to "spoof a little back" (see http://www.lds-mormon.com/ferg.shtml) and stay in, or leave?

What do people *get* from leaving?

I'm not talking about gay men. I'm not talking about the disaffected, disenfranchised, and alienated. Are there true-blue Mormons who leave *solely* because they come to realize that the Church is false? If so, I'm at a loss as to understand why, because the grass doesn't seem any greener anywhere else.

So again, what do people *get* from leaving?

I really want to know!

Thanks,

Steve

I left because I figured out that I didn't believe in god anymore. After that, the details of why the mormon church was false just fell into place.

I missed the built-in social network for about five minutes.

I found the world to be a big beautiful place full of interesting people and fun experiences. Life without judgment beat a fake community every day of the week.

Some of us can belong anywhere, no labels needed.

You bet the grass is greener.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 04:36PM by Pista.

Among a whole host of many other things....
It comes down to a basic human struggle...that tug of war we do in our heads between being authentic and honest or shrouding our real life in illusions and outward lies. There are more "blessings" if you will on the side of authenticity and honesty.

Polonius via Shakespeare said it best,

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!"

Would you be true to yourself and reveal that you're a Jew if you lived in Nazi Germany? Ideals are nice, and I understand them. But we don't live in an ideal world with lots of leisure, toleration, and freedom. To live in Sandy, UT and declare that--surprise, Mom and Dad--you're GAY! would disrupt the lives of countless people and quite possibly lead you to suicide. You can't generalize.

The effects of shunning, parental disapproval, peer pressure, etc. are deadly real. (Do you remember the boy who was going to go on a mission and posted here looking for help? I correctly predicted that he'd be on a plane to the MTC the next day.) I'm not defending the Church. However, people need to understand the game that's being played and protect themselves. We don't have a Final Truth. There is no one true way to live. Everyone is different. However, given what I know of human psychology, while you can leave the Mormon Church, you can't escape your own personality.

I highly doubt that there are a great number of truly "independent" people who can make their own way in life, fully abandoning all existing relationships, particularly with family. Yes, there are exceptions, but not many, and among those, the exceptionalness arises from desperation, such as being gay. My friend Doug Stewart was true to himself, too. Now, he's dead.

That's why I say: Understand and play the game. Bleed the beast. Stab the monster in the back while wearing a velvet glove. Bring the house down from within.

If you personally had $1 billion, you could call the shots. You could call up the Church Office Building and have a "revelation" issued in exchange for money. You could mold your environment to suit you. On the other hand, if you're a poor college student or a homeless man in downtown Salt Lake City, your options are severely limited.

The people in the Church Office Building don't give a rat's ass about you or what you believe, so long as you obey them. They want your money, and they're going to do whatever they need to to get it. Period. If you *dare* threaten their money collection system or threaten the stability of their society, LOOK OUT! The monster is going to go on a rampage.

"Of course," you say. "That's why I left the Church." Yes, but guess what! The people in the Church Office Building come from the same stock as the people in *every* "executive" board room. It's "turtles all the way down," which is to say, once you realize that yes, the "Church" is a Fortune 500 corporation, and you also realize that you work for a corporation, and it's just as coercive, then the expression that the grass isn't any greener on the other side takes on new meaning.

There is no escape. Escape is an illusion. Would you rather have a known, happy illusion, or live in a maelstrom inside which is divorce, shunning, abandonment, screaming, hatred, derision, bankruptcy, and all manner of violence?

To thrive, people need a community. Communities are rarely about truth. They have institutional elements. They do what they need to in order to survive. The moment that you dissent, you become a threat. That's the inherent tension in society, and a source of great misery to the individual.

The truth is that almost all people don't want the truth. They want to live in comfort and safety.

Steve

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you be true to yourself and reveal that
> you're a Jew if you lived in Nazi Germany?

When I came out, for gays, the USA was moving in the direction of Nazi Germany. I came out when people like Anita Bryant and John Brigs were trying to pass Nuremberg Laws sort of laws in the USA to limit where gays could work. (OK, it was a couple of years after the Brigs Initiative but the political climate was not much different) I also carried a card with a lawyers name on it in case I was in a bar that got raided and needed to get out of jail.

The way we combated this was to be true to ourselves, We did NOT live comfortably or safely. We risked being bashed, we risked being fired, we risked being evicted, we risked being arrested, we risked being put on a sex offenders list. And we are winning. The move Milk showed Milk getting everyone to come out of the closet and being true to themselves in order to combat the Nuremberg Laws style Brigs initiative.

Live true to yourself and fight for the right to do so or live a slave to someone else's idea of what you should be, if they allow you to live, that is.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 01:45AM by MJ.

I have a very strong sense of honesty and integrity. As much as I missed the social aspects of church, there was just no way that I could deliberately live a lie.

Truth became more important to me than trying to talk myself into a belief, just because it was comforting. My personality simply won't allow me pull that off.

The LDS Church is the organization which taught me honesty and integrity, and here they were, practicing neither of those things. Why would I want to be a part of a dishonest organization, which was only out to get my money?

Also, when Proposition 8 came around and I realized that they were prepared to actively fight against other peoples rights, that was too much for me. They also taught me that agency was a God-given, sacred right for everyone, and yet here they were, fighting the civil rights of others.

That was the last straw for me. I refused to have my name associated with such an organization. For the first time in my life, I was embarrassed and ashamed to say that I was Mormon. That's when it was time to leave for good.

Hi Greyfort,

I'm glad that you were able to leave, and I certainly appreciate your feelings about Proposition H8.

Regarding honesty and integrity, I've concluded that a "bad" tree can, indeed, produce "good" fruit, and it routinely does. The Church is a vile and embarrassing fraud, and yet it "produces" many good people.

It's much easier to leave the Mormon Church today than it would have been in 1850. Back then, if you were in "Deseret" and left, where, exactly, would you go? How would you get there? Would you risk your life?

In your own situation, how has your life changed since you left? Do you live in Utah? When the options are restricted, you have to make do with what you've got. Sometimes, you don't have a lot of freedom (if any).

The only thing that we can be certain of is that no matter what, the Church will do everything in its power to survive. It'll start spewing "revelations" left and right the moment that it realizes that its existence is at risk. Gay marriage? Done. Female priests? Done. Whatever it takes, so long as it can keep going, so long as the Church Office Building bureaucrats can remain in power, and so long as the Mormon system is preserved.

While there's nothing "spiritual" about the Mormon Church, that's true of every other institution and organization. The "spirit" is what humans think, feel, and do as they interact with each other and the physical environment. If you blew the Church away, what would you replace it with, if anything? And if nothing, what then? Anarchy?

Steve

"If you blew the Church away, what would you replace it with, if anything? And if nothing, what then? Anarchy?"
This sounds like what a person living in North Korea might say about their government. "The Church" encourages black-and-white thinking, but it's not as all-powerful as they might like you to believe. We still live in a free country, governed by law, where the majority of citizens get along just fine without "the Church" dictating to them. It's amazing that an institution like this is able to convince people that they are unable to live without it, when everything the institution has to offer (social acceptance, community, sense of connection to a higher being) is freely available. The main benefit of leaving Mormonism is freedom, particularly freedom from mind control.

Quote: The truth is that almost all people don't want the truth. They want to live in comfort and safety.


Maybe that's the difference. Maybe for those of us who do leave, truth, and leading a genuine life, is more important than being comfortable.

Although, I have to say that I'm tons more comfortable with myself now than I've ever been in my life, now that I feel I'm living as a genuine "me."

There's no way that corporation is ever getting another penny from me. I'd take back what I gave, if I could.

>There's no way that corporation is ever getting
>another penny from me. I'd take back what I gave,
>if I could.

you can. exposure of LDS inc lies cuts into LDs Inc profitability. post & repost Mormon expose video on public internet video sharing sites. You could end up costing LDS inc FAR MORE than they ever stole from you in offerings.

for some insider PsOS there are lots of reasons to stay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkVNWHT-IA

of course I am still technically a member myself, so I can do exactly what Hinckley did -damage the LDS INC church from the best vantage point, from within.

Honestly I never liked church at all. I don't think I have a religious bone in my body. As a little kid I just went obviously because what choice did I have? As a teenager, I realized I didn't want anything to do with it but my siblings and I were forced to go no matter what. If we didn't go, we would get the silent treatment for the rest of the evening. Oh well. Anyway, when I graduated I told my parents I didn't want to go anymore but they asked that I at least go to sacrament since I was living under their roof.

In my mid 20's I was given the DNA vs BoM documentary by an exmo family member. From there I started researching for myself and it didn't take long to find how false the TSCC really is. I never really had any intention of looking into all the problems with the church simply because I never cared. Now I do care since I have kids and if they ever want to go because of friends or whatever it is, at least I have all the facts I can present them with when they're old enough.

I never really followed the rules and regulations of the church. Most of my friends were either exmos or nevermos so I didn't lose my social circle. I never was involved enough with TSCC. I really didn't date TBM guys either. My DH is an exmo and hadn't been active for quite some time when we met. All in all, it didn't affect me and I love my life! I feel bad for my TBM neighbors getting in their minivans with their ugly skirts down to their ankles heading to church, but I know they probably feel really bad for me.

and enjoy things you'd otherwise be deprived of, not to mention save a lot of money and have more time to enjoy. It's more like getting out of prison than joining some other club or going to a different party.

P.S. There's no afterlife. :)

When I first found out it wasn't true, some things that had bothered me for probably 20 years FINALLY made sense.

(Like why I didn't get answers to prayers for a testimony, and why I didn't feel spiritual, and I was able to admit things I didn't like).

A whole world of possibilities opened up for my life. Since my worldview was faulty, I wanted to revisit every opinion, and every assumption I had ever made.

My first years out of the church were like a learning explosion. I was interested in science, politics, psychology, relationships, self-help books, history. There was no question I wasn't allowed to ask, and no conclusion I had to come to. I could ask anything, think anything, say anything, and decide for myself what I believed.

On top of that, I felt like I got my life back, too. I got to make my own decisions, I had less demands on my time and money. And I realized I could judge for MYSELF how I was doing, instead of measuring myself against a standard of domestic perfection.

And I had to grow a backbone, because I was going against what I had been taught, and what virtually everyone in my community accepted as the one and only true church.


If I were to sum up what I got by leaving the church? Freedom to think and do for myself. Self-acceptance. Inner Strength.

+1

What Do You Get By Leaving The Church?

You get pain. You get anger. You get hate. You get suffering. (You get responses that are obviously Star Wars references).

But even with the inevitable generic and cliché responses, you also get (and I can't emphasize this enough) your own destiny back.

Make your life what you want. Or don't. The choice is yours. You get to have choice. Nobody can put a price on that.

It isn't all or nothing.

I got most of it, though--all the good things Imaworkingonit mentioned, and also all the punishments the cruel Mormons impose on apostates.

What is more real? All those wonderful awakenings in your life, or the authority-inflicted punishments from the robots. Yes, the robots are sometimes your own parents, your own spouse.

But, out of hiding, you find those others like you, and you support each other. You find true friends, instead of fake ones. You spend more time with family members who don't believe in the silent treatment or corporal punishment. Mormons comprise less than .01% of the world population. Once you're free of that tiny, nasty cult, hopefully most people aren't going to harm you or road-block your future. Many of us will have to get out of Dodge, to gain their freedom.

For me, the worst day out of the cult is better than the best day in the cult. (I borrowed that from the drug commercial.)

I think you get HAPPINESS.

Principle alone probably is overstated. For me, I think the tipping point came when the pain of being in the church outweighed the benefits of membership. The lies were there all along, and pain was there from the start (I was a convert at 15). But it took a long time to realize the lies and pain were making life so much harder than necessary. The benefits of membership gradually eroded over time until the destructive nature of membership for me was so much greater that there was no option but to see the church for what it is: a cult that paints you into a corner.

If life had been good in the church, if it met more needs than it deprived in me, I'm sure I would still be in. So in short, when the pain became unbearable, lining up the reasons to leave became quite easy.

A nice shot of morphine, figuratively speaking.

As others have mentioned, you get to have a genuine life, and you get to be the captain of that life. That's worth it to me.

But also as mentioned, it isn't all black and white. It's not all a bed of roses, but it is worth it.

I've faced the rejection of friends I've known most of my life, and loneliness. And yet, I've never been happier, in spite of my lonely moments.

I guess it's because the Church damaged my self-esteem. It made me believe that no matter how fast I ran on the Mormon hamster wheel, I'd never be good enough. I followed all of the rules, but I still never felt that what I did was enough. I felt I'd never make it to that elusive Celestial Kingdom.

All I can tell you is that the moment I left, my self-esteem began to heal. I'm beginning to like myself, for the first time in my life. And I'm gradually learning to stop caring so much about the judgment of others as well.

The Church held me back, so that I always felt like a 12-year-old trapped in an adult's body. I always felt child-like. I'm finally beginning to feel like an adult, and I'm 52! But I'm finally growing up.

I believe that the Church does a lot of damage to the psyche. There are so many other organizations that one could belong to in order to gain a social life, which won't pressure you to be perfect, and then tell you it's your fault when you can't reach that impossible goal.

Lonely moments notwithstanding, I'm so much better off without that organization.

It was easier for me to walk away than most people because I already had a life that was not established by the cult. In hindsight, the only reasons I kept going as a teenager was a matter of survival. I watched both of my sisters thrown into a loony bin for rebelling and I wasn't going to let that happen to me.

As soon as I was out on my own, I left. I had the freedom to wear what I wanted, eat, drink, read, watch etc. Nobody was in charge of my life except me.

It surprises me you'd say this: "I'm not talking about the disaffected, disenfranchised, and alienated. Are there true-blue Mormons who leave *solely* because they come to realize that the Church is false? If so, I'm at a loss as to understand why, because the grass doesn't seem any greener anywhere else."

I don't think you have the whole picture because you're standing in your yard lookin over "that" fence and I'm in a totally different yard. So, what did I get? I got my life back by ditching all the "busy work" that the church heaps upon you so you don't stray.

The grass on the other side here, in my world, actually is greener. I've shed myself from a world of feeling compelled to complete very assignment, every challenge and every command from SLC. My life, every day, was consumed with the church. And THAT on top of trying to manage a career. Try working 60 - 70 hours per week and then shoving all THIS into the picture:

Family Home Evening
Read the Scriptures
Scouts
YM/YW every Wednesday night
Home Teaching
Sundays lasted from 6AM to 10PM (bishopric meetings, correlation meetings... on and on it went)
Genealogy
Bishop's Storehouse work
Temple Trips
...shall I go on?

Every day, every hour, every minute scheduled and accounted for. Now that I'm out, I have time to find out who I really am and can make myself a better person by focussing on what really matters and not all the busy work.

Just sayin'...

Ron

ExMormonRom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It surprises me you'd say this: "I'm not talking
> about the disaffected, disenfranchised, and
> alienated. Are there true-blue Mormons who leave
> *solely* because they come to realize that the
> Church is false? If so, I'm at a loss as to
> understand why, because the grass doesn't seem any
> greener anywhere else."
>
> I don't think you have the whole picture because
> you're standing in your yard lookin over "that"
> fence and I'm in a totally different yard. So,
> what did I get? I got my life back by ditching
> all the "busy work" that the church heaps upon you
> so you don't stray.
>

I think you brought out a really important aspect of the original post. Mormonism paints itself as THE greenest pasture, the happiest place on earth, etc. But even (maybe ESPECIALLY) for those who believe every word of it and do whatever they are asked, it does the most damage. Because the promises are EMPTY.

But I didn't know that. For YEARS I thought there was something wrong with ME. Because I didn't have the feelings (testimony and spiritual highs) I was supposed to have. So I just kept trying harder. By the time I left, I was pretty down.


The green grass of Mormonism was astroturf.

I've been taught since I was knee high to a grasshopper that Ouija boards and crystal balls and scrying were tools of the devil. When I discovered the truth about seerstones I realized that the Book of Mormon was brought about through Joseph Smith scrying.

I believed the church when they told me that only a vicious antimormon would claim such a thing.

I believed the church when it said that the reports of temple rites were evil antimormon lies.
I was told by my own Stake President that there was no such thing as temple oaths that included drawing your thumb across your throat.

These two issues in my mind have always stood out as the most evil antimormon lies ever concocted by those who love satan more than God.

Once I discovered that these were true and was able to verify it many times over, it was too much. Along with that was the policy of lying for the lord. Satan is the father of lies, and if you are not honest you cannot righteously go to the temple.

The last straw however was murder. In the church we were taught that murder (shedding of innocent blood) was the unpardonable sin. Moutain Meadows, the Aiken Party Massacre and the numerous Blood Atonement sermons found in the Journal of Discourses leave no doubt what so ever that the LDS church was not only false, but based upon evil principles.

I gained NOTHING by leaving, and in trying to come to terms with these discoveries and the possibility of renouncing my covenants and breaking my promise to remain faithful no matter what, were horrifying, but I could not support a church that not only taught, but punished those who did not believe such outrages.

I was called to repentance many times for discovering this information and losing my confidence in the church as if I was a sinner. My parents and my friends at church and my brothers and sisters have abandoned me for leaving their church.

Rather thn leaving on order to gain something, I had to leave despite the loss of much. Much prayer and fasting and study led me to that conclusion.

The first was I guess an answer to what I hoped to get by leaving.

The blessings we did receive were both temporal and spiritual. We gained more time to be togather as a family without spending three+ hours in church away from each other, we gained more time together on Monday night without fighting over FHE (actually I gave up trying to force the issue years ago and we happily stopped) We also gained an increase in family funds that allow us to stay on top of our bills and to have a savings account with more than a hundred bucks in it.

We now have time to enjoy trips to places on Sunday if we choose instead of waiting for Stake or General Conference to finally come around. Nor are Saturdays and SuperBowl Sunday hijacked by StakePriesthood meetings. While I don't get overly excoted about the SuperBowl, it was painfully obvious that the Stake Leadership was scheduling meetings on that night to test our faithfulness.

As for me, I no longer have to put a lot of junk on my mental shelf and rationalize away the inconsistencies, nor do I have to do the member missionary thing and try to make stuff sound 'not that weird' to people.

Despite my fears, leaving the church has been a win-win situation, and while I once tried desperately to prove that it was still somehow true, I am now grateful that I no longer feel like I must believe or perish.Nor is it at all possible that my only chance of happiness is dependant upon wearing the mormon shackles.

Simple answer:
Happiness, clarity, an open mind and more time with my wife.

I could write a book about this, and maybe someday I will, but this was what leaving was all about to me.

Only I found out after my mission that it was a fraud. Everything else is the same...... Except for your last statement describing him "Everything is set up for you to live a fantastic life"

Do you call Tithing, Temple attendance, endless meetings and callings, Dictated lifestyle, etc a fantastic life?

Just because you have a community, and love and support, doesn't mean that all of the negative parts of mormonism are bearable.

I hated going to church. It was so mind-numbing and boring that I couldn't bear the 3 hour block. Add on top of that the endless meetings, tithing and uncomfortable underwear and you do not have what I would call a fantastic life.

Are you kidding? You ARE kidding right?

When I first started working at my last job, there was one guy I thought, "He just doesn't belong here." Why? He was black and openly gay. He minced when he walked, my inside racist/bigot commented, "He is an embarrassment."

Not surprisingly, over a few years that one person taught me more about my own inner bigot. Where others were cruel, he was kind. Where he could have stabbed someone in the back, he helped them and covered up their mistake. Where he could have made a buck with a lawsuit, he said he didn't need the negativity in his life.

Initially we were forced to work together and I ended up being the lucky one because I had to confront my hidden racism/bigotry. This guy was just like me! He was worried about his boyfriend, trying to find a good recipe, anxious about his mother's health and whether he and the boyfriend should get married.

My point: sometimes the things you hate and fear are just what you need.

Other point: it only takes one real friendship to break down years of racism/bigotry.

My other experience with African Americans was totally negative and one of the lessons I learned from this is that love really is stronger than hate. Ironically, after we both left the company, my black gay friend and I had lunch and he said, "You know, getting to know you has freed me from a lot of stereotypes that I had about older white elite women."

Cha-ching. You are, from everything I see, a terrific person, Gay Philosopher. I'll bet that people getting to know you as a real person instead of a stereotype unravels the stereotype immediately.

Which leads to the "thing" that I got out of leaving Mormonism. Life is not a war between good and evil. Life is a struggle to maintain a loving-kindness attitude within yourself while war and rage goes on all around you. The example I think of often is the water lily which blooms in all pristine purity even though it floats on filthy water.

What I get from leaving Mormonism is the right to make my own moral choices. To be the person I want with the integrity level I choose. I don't need to bleed the beast because it already dies a little every time I send a random kindness into the universe.

Anagrammy

being part of an organization that makes demonstrably false truth claims, and promotes values I disagree with and works to enforce them politically. Integrity means something to me. As I conduct my life, I need access to the best information possible in order to make decisions that are morally defensible. As a member of the church, I was counseled to give special priority to the words of church leaders. By belonging to the church, and giving them money through tithing and other offerings, I was supporting an organization that was often at odds with my own views on moral issues. To resolve that contradiction, I left.

I left, as a matter of conscience, having no expectation that life would get better because of it. Thankfully, that turned out to be the case-- life did get better, by far. As it turns out, although I was shunned and rejected by many, I found that the world is huge and there are many more worthwhile communities I can be part of. Mormonism had nothing unique to offer me that was worth having.

Well obviously you get a 10% raise and weekends and evenings off. (honestly when I first saw the title of your thread I thought you were going to be retelling that old joke).

You wrote: "Do people leave just because they realize that the Church is founded on a mountain of lies and has an embarrassing history? Do they leave because they'd rather do what they want to do with their time rather than sacrificing it to the Church? What is it?"

I think the real answer is going to be uniquely different for each individual. There could be millions of reasons why any particular individual left. And there could be any degree of overlapping reasons too. While there may be some general categories we could sort those reasons into I don't think we'd give each individual proper credit if we just lumped it all into one or two categories. Too "sunday school" for me anyway.

A lot of people are treated horrifically, and this is the place to come and try to recover from that.

But it skews the board. Those of us who weren't shunned or disinherited tend not to speak up about it, but I think we may well be the majority of the straight exmos.

The cost to me was a few solemn conversations and a little pity in the short term, and I got my whole life in return. It was a thousand times worth it.

a tattoo of a purple poodle on yer butt?

What,,CHURCH?? I never felt any religious feelings about the mormons since a young boy. I always felt it was a club. Join us and be better than the other people in the world.
I seen so much discrimation,,lies,,criticisam,,shunning,,lack of respect,,shame,,guilt,,growing up in a mormon only envirement. When I left the town to go to college,,I sent my letter,,interviewed,,never looked back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 04:27PM by unworthy.

In the meantime, I would suggest that you think about what poster Nightingale had to succinctly say (and in my opinion, quite correctly so) when she observed this about your approach to our disagreements in her post, dated 15 July 2011:

"Gay Philosopher replies to Steve: 'Having read your posts for years, it seems to me that you're a competent writer, but subject to the confirmation bias, as are all of us. You select articles and statements made by others that affirm your preexisting, faith-based dogma. Unfortunately, it's rather difficult to find the motivation to refute your religious fantasy-claims of annihilation at bodily death, because it's already been done so often.'"

"[Nightingale]: . . . I think most of us do provide references that back up our stated info or opinion. It’s up to responders to give references if they present a differing opinion. As for how often the same topic is discussed, that’s going to happen here due to the nature of the board, discussing religious beliefs and alternatives. Fortunately, there is a wide and changing and growing audience who haven’t all seen these discussions through the years and they often express gratitude for the dialogue, info and references. Repetition is thus a non-issue at RfM."


"GP to Steve: 'Your rhetoric is false. Your conclusions are based on appeals to authority and an intolerance for ambiguity, not to mention gross ignorance of the history of science, let alone the philosophy of mind.

”'Your continual attempt to provoke people or get them to agree with you stems from a profound narcissism that impels you to attempt to be the center of attention at all times. You can't tolerate being socially invisible, or the idea …[that] you're not important. Let's call a spade a spade. Stick to journalism, and I'll stick to philosophy.'

[Nightingale]: "As a philosopher, how do you have the expertise to psychoanalyze another poster, I wonder."

"GP: 'We survive death.'

"[Nightingale]: I’d love to know how anyone can state this definitively, unless it’s in the realm of religious belief when a person may deeply believe it but has no way to prove it scientifically. Do philosophers have special knowledge such that they can make absolute statements like that, offering no proof or even references or examples to back up their conclusion?"

"GP to Steve: 'You've become repetitious and boring. Your wishes don't matter one bit to the universe. You, too, will survive death, whether you (or we) like it or not.'"

"[Nightingale]: All I see here are more derogatory comments. It’s also kinda low to state that 'we' may not like to see Steve 'surviv[ing] death.' . I never understand someone wishing ill on another, especially if it involves anticipating their annihilation. Surprisingly to me, you’re not addressing Steve’s statements but merely joining the legions of others who attack him personally. To many readers, that doesn’t prove your points or get them on-side with your opinions as it doesn’t lend weight to your arguments but rather, weakens them, as if you have nothing but negative comments against a person and no comeback against his comments."

"GP to Steve: 'Enjoy your life and revel in your delusions. Pardon us if we refuse to join your death cult. We're long past the point of paying any attention to you, never mind taking you seriously. You're a massive nutter who has ceased being entertaining long ago.'"

"[Nightingale]: Who is the 'we'? What 'death cult'? Atheists are in a death cult now? They’re not the initiators of human biology who planned that we are mortal and will die and rot (or not). Some days, the idea of a great yawning nothingness is appealing to me, especially in light of the Mormon idea of heaven – just more preaching, servitude and eternal childbirth (oh yeah, I’m there – NOT!) and the other anticipated scenarios of golden streets and eternal harpifying. Atheists didn’t invent the void, they just believe it’s more likely to exist than not. To me that is a reasonable viewpoint and far from being a death cult."



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 10:28PM by steve benson.

I get the ability to try and figure out life using the full range of knowledge available to me. I realize it's limited, and my capacity to interpret it is even more limited. But it is a relief knowing that I'm doing it my way.

It can be frightening, uncertain, and even scary. But it helps me empathize with others in a way that I could never do as a Mormon, because I assumed those who didn't see the world like us were weird or even wicked.

There are things we give up. I feel out of place around my own family, and not many other churches have basketball courts. What I've gained still outweighs what I lost.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts. I'm kind of weighing this decision right now. I don't believe in the church - but I do other things I don't believe in (trying to think of examples - I drive instead of biking to work?) The church does keep me close to my family, and it only takes a couple hours a week. I hate everything else about it, but it has those positives.

I think the real benefit is that I want to have kids in the next couple of years, and I have a chance to really make their life so much better, by not making church a part of it. That's what's been a decision-maker for me.

Steve,

Thanks so much for a very interesting post and discussion thread. I relate very much to what you are saying. There are many on this board for whom leaving was easier (and many not), but I was definitely full-blown TBM in my earlier life. Substitute "wife" for "girlfriend" and your description fits very well. I faithfully and happily served a mission, served in the bishopric, etc., and it wasn't until my thirties when I started researching online that the untruth of the church became clear to me.

For a long time, I wrestled with exactly the dilemma you describe. I had a great life, loved my wife, and didn't want to disrupt it. I became obsessed with studying about TSCC and religion in general, and am now best classified (proudly so) as a secular atheist and, I hope, a follower of the principles of the enlightenment. It took awhile for me to decide to "come out" to my wife and then my parents about my unbelief. DW, angel that she is, has been very understanding and supportive, although she still believes and asks that I come to sacrament with her. She is being understanding of my desire not to pay tithing anymore and not serve in callings. I'm still not fully out, though. My extended family doesn't really know, and my parents see me as questioning but not fully apostate yet.

For me, the social aspects of leaving are very hard because it disrupts many of the deepest and most important relationships in my life. When my Mom pressed me and I told her my disbelief in the church, she cried and told me it would have been better news to hear I had died (because this means we could be separated forever instead of only for a few years). When I told my Dad (who had been saying something to the effect that he couldn't see how any rational person could NOT believe the story of Joseph Smith) this led to the biggest argument we've ever had (we've always been very close). He even said is was "easy for me to come up with and say these negative things to him about the church", when it was in fact perhaps the hardest thing I have ever done. Suffice it to say, I'd rather not go through the whole thing.

So, why press forward and leave TSCC, even knowing that I can not then go to my siblings weddings, that is causes consternation within my closest family relationships, and separates me from a community that I had really loved?

For me these are the reasons:

1) I have discovered that my deepest value is truth (at least this is what I currently think). This may sound trite, but as the layers of my belief were torn I was really deconstructed over the course of a few years and I questioned everything that I believed. The church/gospel were extremely deeply ingrained in me. I can hardly believe I didn't see through it all before, but I didn't. I was born into, have a believing heart, and had worked hard to intellectually make it all fit in all the years of forming my existence. So, at base I wondered what do I value most - where was my center? About a month ago, I came to the conclusion that at the very center of me, what beat out everything else at the end of the day was a respect for the truth and a desire to know it as well as I can. I can't do that if I live a lie. The other really core virtue for me is love, but I won't believe falsehood to make those I love happy - that isn't real.

2) The community that I loved in the church just doesn't really exist for me anymore. I don't feel the oneness I did before because I no longer feel that we are part of those happy few covenant people of God - because I don't believe. When I'm in church I don't feel spiritually fulfilled anymore (most of the time) - I just cringe at so many falsehoods and the lack of free inquiry and debate.

3) I believe my family relationships will survive. I know now that my relationship with my wife will, and that's most important. I'll need to tell the kids at some point now and that will also be tough.

4) I have found life to be much fuller and richer now, which I would never have believed in my TBM days. My mind is free to seek truth wherever I can, and I no longer have to do mental gymnastics to try and fit in things that clearly aren't so.

5) I have to acknowledge that I do have a wonderful community that I engage most of my life with now. I am a professional scientist and professor at a major research university and I have a wonderful group of friends and colleagues through my profession. This community has a culture that is majority atheist, so I have to admit to myself that my community identify has switched with my beliefs. I do wonder if I would ever have come to see the church was false if I had never left the community in Utah as the dominant force in my life. So, I try not to too harshly judge those that can't see it (like my parents).

6) Finishing the work of leaving TSCC will be the biggest step towards personal integrity and authenticity that I've ever done, I believe.

7) Freedom of thought! The other fantastic thing I get from becoming free of the myths was that I could evaluate facts and consequences and act accordingly, without worrying about the unseen eternal consequences and the unknown will of God that I was somehow supposed to learn and follow. Life just makes so much more sense now, and I only need to believe what is true. Most things I don't know, many I can't know, but I've free to just acknowledge these limits.

Anyway, I've rambled on much too long now.

Thanks again Steve for a thought-provoking post.